Washington State Bill Would Increase Fees for Collector Cars and Horseless Carriages - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 01-20-2011, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Washington State Bill Would Increase Fees for Collector Cars and Horseless Carriages

http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=62852

Legislation (H.B. 1134) has been introduced in the Washington State Legislature by Representative Fred Finn ([email protected]) and Representative Zack Hudgins ([email protected]) that threatens to require annual renewal fees for collector vehicle and horseless carriage license plates. Under the bill, the initial $35 license plate fee for these vehicles would remain and a new annual $30 renewal fee would be added. Under Washington law, a collector vehicle is any motor vehicle that is more than thirty years old, while a horseless carriage is defined as a vehicle that is more than forty years old.

We Urge You to Contact Members of the Washington House Transportation Committee (List Below) Immediately to Request Their Opposition to H.B. 1134

• H.B. 1134 ignores the fact that these older cars are infrequently driven (about one-third the miles each year as a new vehicle) second or third vehicles and deserving of reduced registration fees.

• H.B. 1134 singles out and targets owners of older cars as revenue boosters to compensate for state budget shortfalls.

• H.B. 1134 ignores the fact that many collector vehicles are owned and maintained by low and fixed income Americans who are less able to afford a higher, annual fee.

DON’T DELAY! Please contact members of the House Transportation Committee immediately by e-mail to request their opposition to H.B. 1134. Please e-mail a copy of your letter to Steve McDonald at [email protected]. Also, please forward this Alert to your fellow car enthusiasts. Urge them to join the SAN and help defend the hobby! Thank you for your assistance.

Washington House Transportation Committee

Representative Judy Clibborn - Chair
Phone: 360/786-7926
Email: [email protected]


Representative Andy Billig - Vice Chair
Phone: 360/786-7888
Email: [email protected]


Representative Marko Liias - Vice Chair
Phone: 360/786-7972
Email: [email protected]


Representative Mike Armstrong
Phone: 360/786-7832
Email: [email protected]


Representative Jan Angel
Phone: 360/786-7964
Email: [email protected]


Representative Katrina Asay
Phone: 360/786-7830
Email: [email protected]


Representative Deb Eddy
Phone: 360/786-7848
Email: [email protected]


Representative Fred Finn
Phone: 360/786-7902
Email: [email protected]


Representative Joe Fitzgibbon
Phone: 360/786-7952
Email: [email protected]


Representative Mark Hargrove
Phone: 360/786-7918
Email: [email protected]


Representative Laurie Jinkins
Phone: 360/786-7930
Email: [email protected]


Representative Norm Johnson
Phone: 360/786-7810
Email: [email protected]


Representative Brad Klippert
Phone: 360/786-7882
Email: [email protected]


Representative Dan Kristiansen
Phone: 360/786-7967
Email: [email protected]


Representative Connie Ladenburg
Phone: 360/786-7906
Email: [email protected]


Representative Jim McCune
Phone: 360/786-7824
Email: [email protected]


Representative Jim Moeller
Phone: 360/786-7872
Email: [email protected]


Representative Jeff Morris
Phone: 360/786-7970
Email: [email protected]


Representative Luis Moscoso
Phone: 360/786-7900
Email: [email protected]


Representative Jason Overstreet
Phone: 360/786-7980
Email: [email protected]


Representative Chris Reykdal
Phone: 360/786-7940
Email: [email protected]


Representative Ann Rivers
Phone: 360/786-7850
Email: [email protected]


Representative Jay Rodne
Phone: 360/786-7852
Email: [email protected]


Representative Christine Rolfes
Phone: 360/786-7842
Email: [email protected]


Representative Cindy Ryu
Phone: 360/786-7880
Email: [email protected]


Representative Matt Shea
Phone: 360/786-7984
Email: [email protected]


Representative Dean Takko
Phone: 360/786-7806
Email: [email protected]


Representative Dave Upthegrove
Phone: 360/786-7868
Email: [email protected]


Representative Hans Zeiger
Phone: 360/786-7968
Email: [email protected]


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post #2 of 36 Old 01-20-2011, 06:40 PM
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no suprise. the voters rolled back registration fees years before the current governor coming in. raising the fees was one of her first priorities so this is just an addition to increasing the tax revenue for a state w/o income tax.

post #3 of 36 Old 01-21-2011, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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This legislation needs to be stopped for numerous reasons. First and foremost, it seeks to balance budget sheets on the backs of hobbyists. Secondly, if we allow this to pass, a hike in registration fees for commonly-used vehicles could be next. Finally, this will effect all hobbyists in Washington State. The cars we know and love today will be collectors in the future.

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post #4 of 36 Old 01-25-2011, 06:48 PM
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I wrote to my representative here and made a valid argument, and essentially indicated that if they vote for the bill i will vote against them next election. I would also contact every hobbyist I know and tell them to find their representatives.

Bill 1134 - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1134.pdf - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/districtfinder/default.aspx

Trying to find out where they post the voting results so we know how our reps voted.
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post #5 of 36 Old 01-28-2011, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for your activism!

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post #6 of 36 Old 01-29-2011, 01:00 AM
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Out of curiosity, how much does it currently cost per year to renew a regular, or "non-collector car" plate?

If it's $30 or less a year, I don't see a problem.
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post #7 of 36 Old 01-31-2011, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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Out of curiosity, how much does it currently cost per year to renew a regular, or "non-collector car" plate?

If it's $30 or less a year, I don't see a problem.
Currently, it's $30 to get the plate. It's the new ANNUAL renewal fee on top of that that is the problem with this bill.

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post #8 of 36 Old 01-31-2011, 06:07 PM
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Currently, it's $30 to get the plate. It's the new ANNUAL renewal fee on top of that that is the problem with this bill.
Right, but how much do normal, non-collector plates cost to renew each year?
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post #9 of 36 Old 01-31-2011, 06:35 PM
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Exclamation

With all the time you have spent correcting the person, you could have looked it up in google. It took less than 1 minute to find the answer.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistr...newalfees.html
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post #10 of 36 Old 01-31-2011, 07:31 PM
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With all the time you have spent correcting the person, you could have looked it up in google. It took less than 1 minute to find the answer.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistr...newalfees.html
I'm not correcting anybody, I'm asking a question as this thread does not have enough information to make an informed decision on the subject.

From my understanding of the link you posted, it appears that the answer to my question is "it costs $30 a year to renew a regular, non-collector plate". If I'm not understanding the info from your link correctly, why don't you just post the answer to my question instead of being obtuse.

If I am correct, I still think my original thought on this issue is right. I don't see a problem charging collector plate holders the same fee to use the road as other users.

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post #11 of 36 Old 01-31-2011, 07:43 PM
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Then do the research yourself and stop asking everyone else to go lookup the answers for you, when you are more than capable. If telling you to stop being lazy is being obtuse, then yes I'm being obtuse.
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post #12 of 36 Old 02-01-2011, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Bottom line is, collector/antique plates shouldn't be held to the same standard as "regular" plates in terms of fees. These vehicles are infrequently used, so why should they be required to be renewed every year? Doesn't make sense.

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post #13 of 36 Old 02-01-2011, 05:32 PM
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Bottom line is, collector/antique plates shouldn't be held to the same standard as "regular" plates in terms of fees. These vehicles are infrequently used, so why should they be required to be renewed every year? Doesn't make sense.
Why does it matter how often they are driven on the road? If I owned a newer sports car I rarely drive on public roads for whatever reason (to keep the miles down, to keep the value up, to prevent vandalism, because I like looking at it in my garage, etc), I'd have to pay a renewal fee. The changes in this law as proposed actually make sense. Drive the car on public roads = pay a fee. Fees should be equal for all users.

On the other hand, I would support lowering renewal fees across the board for all drivers if they're cost prohibitive. But not for one limited subset of car hobbyists. If a car collector or hobbyist wants to avoid renewal fees, they could stop driving the car on public roads. Instant fee savings.
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post #14 of 36 Old 02-01-2011, 06:31 PM
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The whole point of a hobbyist/collectors car subset for car registration fees is because there are restrictions on where and how often you drive the cars. It's like insurance for collectors cars, you are often limited to how many miles you can drive the car and to what kind of events like car club events. If there are restrictions to where the cars can be driven, what is the point of having that subset if collector car owners have to pay the same fee to register their cars for road use.

The state thinks it is going to make money by adding this group of cars that currently only pay an initial fee for collectors car registration into a regular renewal fee. This has implications though that aren't stated in the future budgeting report. Charging an annual renewal fee will mean that people will not register cars that just sit. I paid over $2,000.00 in taxes after buying a Pantera a few years ago. I had to up my loan and eat more interest in my loan to pay those taxes. By adding more fees for operating collector car vehicles on the road they are going to curb the the hobbyist market where these cars continuously change hands. People will stop buying these cars if they keep getting taxed to death. What does that mean to the state. Yeah great they got 30 extra bucks from a lot of people, but a lot of people aren't going to be buying collector cars anymore. What does that mean. That $2000.00 I paid to the state would be nonexistent from a lot of people who would otherwise been buying collector cars. You have to look at the big picture and toward the future. The state is so shortsighted in its thought, they don't research the implications, they just want to punish the hobbyists for the states lack of balancing the budget. It's not black and white, the state will make more money on registration fees yes, but the implications of charging that fee will also cost the state a loss in collector car sales taxes. This is expected though from a government which lacks any kind of foresight. It sounds good on the surface to make money for the state, but in hindsight it will bite taxpayers in the ass. But no one will know because they will never run a report that shows how much tax revenue was lost from collector car sales dropping. That won't show up in any government budget report, you can put your money on that.
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post #15 of 36 Old 02-02-2011, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Dead on accurate, hustler. We want to foster collector car use, not drive people away from it.

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post #16 of 36 Old 02-02-2011, 05:03 PM
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If somebody can't afford a $30 annual tag fee, they probably aren't doing much with the car either. This whole thing is a big deal about nothing.
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post #17 of 36 Old 02-02-2011, 05:52 PM
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You obviously don't understand how our government works. Once they start charging 30 dollars a year, basically that gives the go to raise that fee in the future very easily. Yeah tomorrow its 30 dollars, but when they start raising the fees for everyone's use (and they will), that means collector's goes up as well because now we are all lumped together. You can pay my taxes if you don't mind shedding 30-50 dollars every year. It's not a big deal about nothing, you just can't put it all together. I can't explain it in layman's terms any better than that. You don't even have a car that qualifies as a collector vehicle, so I guess I don't get why you are so eager to volunteer everyone else's money toward this fee. Are you government employed or just rely on government income?

Here is a proposed fee I think they should charge you since you own an almost new M5. You should pay an extra 100 dollar tax every year for 10 years for owning a vehicle which required more natural resources and energy from the planet to manufacturer as opposed to getting more life out of an older car which has already used our planets resources to build. How about them apples? How do you feel about that? Oh thats right they aren't proposing that legislation...
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post #18 of 36 Old 02-02-2011, 06:38 PM
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You obviously don't understand how our government works. Once they start charging 30 dollars a year, basically that gives the go to raise that fee in the future very easily. Yeah tomorrow its 30 dollars, but when they start raising the fees for everyone's use (and they will), that means collector's goes up as well because now we are all lumped together. You can pay my taxes if you don't mind shedding 30-50 dollars every year. It's not a big deal about nothing, you just can't put it all together. I can't explain it in layman's terms any better than that. You don't even have a car that qualifies as a collector vehicle, so I guess I don't get why you are so eager to volunteer everyone else's money toward this fee. Are you government employed or just rely on government income?

Here is a proposed fee I think they should charge you since you own an almost new M5. You should pay an extra 100 dollar tax every year for 10 years for owning a vehicle which required more natural resources and energy from the planet to manufacturer as opposed to getting more life out of an older car which has already used our planets resources to build. How about them apples? How do you feel about that? Oh thats right they aren't proposing that legislation...
I very much understand how government works, and frankly, I'm tired of it.

In my description of "fair", everyone pays the same across the board. No discounts on car registration, except possibly for 100% disabled veterans. This common sense and easy to understand approach solves a number of problems; notably everyone has the same interest in cutting spending and taxes as anyone else. As it stands now we have competing special interests fighting for their own share of public money at the expense of others. This is wrong, and 100% opposed to how America is supposed to be.

While your proposed tax on my car is preposterous, it actually goes along with your mindset regarding tax discounts for car collectors. I already have the privilege to pay fairly high taxes on my car in the state of Nebraska, as they charge an annual Motor Vehicle Tax based on the original MSRP of my car.

Further, your suggested tax on my resource intensive car already exists, except at a much higher level than you proposed. If I had bought the car new, I would also have been assessed a so-called "gas-guzzler tax" of $3,000, to penalize me for making the choice to drive a new, fast car.
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post #19 of 36 Old 02-03-2011, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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If somebody can't afford a $30 annual tag fee, they probably aren't doing much with the car either. This whole thing is a big deal about nothing.
I had a similar discussion with someone from the import crowd who didn't understand why he should care about collector vehicle plate fees. The issue is simple. In 25 years, your daily driver will be a collectible. I'm assuming you enjoy your M5 and if you sell it now, may want another in the future, or possibly another SSP Mustang or '01 Cobra. That being said, because you ignored this fee hike, you will be relegated to paying it.

Moreover, this isn't "a big deal about nothing." Lawmakers may likely be using the collector car community, a smaller pool of constituents, as a test case. If they can increase the fees on us, heck, why not try on the general daily driver population? Enthusiasts shouldn't have to pay more to enjoy their vehicles. $30 a year over time adds up. Dollars I'm certain most would rather use for other things.

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post #20 of 36 Old 02-03-2011, 10:00 PM
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Enthusiasts shouldn't have to pay more to enjoy their vehicles. $30 a year over time adds up. Dollars I'm certain most would rather use for other things.
Enthusiasts would be paying exactly what other motorists pay; not more. As it is they're being subsidized by the other drivers in the state. I'm sure most non-collector car owners in Washington also have better uses for their yearly $30 than to pay licensing fees, but they still have to pay it. This bill fixes the inequity that currently exists.

I don't have a problem paying my fair share for licensing my car, of whatever type, in the future. But only based on the assumption that it is the same price everyone else must pay. Pushing exemptions for certain classes of people just creates bad feelings in the long run. Trying to maintain unfair exemptions now has the potential to turn regular car drivers against enthusiasts in the future. I agree with supporting the rights of car enthusiasts, but why not focus energy on something that actually needs protecting?
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post #21 of 36 Old 02-04-2011, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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This is something that needs protecting. Again, these vehicles are used less than "common" ones. Why should they be forced to become revenue boosters for the state when they hit the road a third less of the time? They are deserving of reduced fees. This legislation is singling out a community and disregards the fact that many who drive collector vehicles are on fixed incomes. Not everyone in this classification has a mint '70 Boss 429 in a climate controlled, ten car garage.

While you may be willing to accept paying additional fees monthly, many are not. Many simply cannot sustain the hike to stay involved in the hobby.

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post #22 of 36 Old 02-04-2011, 06:18 PM
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I guess we're just going to disagree then. You say they're singling out a community for increased fees. I say they're changing the law that already singles out a community for lower fees.

And in the big picture, it doesn't matter if car collectors are dirt poor or have billions in the bank. Taxes should be fair for everyone. Throwing out the fact that people on fixed incomes may not be able to afford something isn't a logical argument and only appeals to emotion.
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post #23 of 36 Old 02-04-2011, 06:30 PM
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You say its fair but in actuality it is not fair. To get insurance and now registration for collectors vehicles you have to prove you have a daily driver and can't use these vehicles for errands and work etc etc. I already pay the state a registration fee annually on my daily driver. I can only drive one car at a time. What is so hard to comprehend that this IS NOT FAIR. We can argue about this all day long but it appears neither is getting through to each other, so this is where it ends for me. I said my peace to my representatives, and if they vote for the bill I don't vote for them next election and I pass the info on to all my car buddies. It's really that simple to me. Democracy at work.

PS one of my democrat representatives didn't bother responding to my email, but was happy to put me on their spam list. Their staff members don't have the time to intelligently respond, but have the time to spam me, gotta love it. I'd rather sit on a phone tree pushing buttons randomly. This is what we vote for.

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post #24 of 36 Old 02-07-2011, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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You say its fair but in actuality it is not fair. To get insurance and now registration for collectors vehicles you have to prove you have a daily driver and can't use these vehicles for errands and work etc etc. I already pay the state a registration fee annually on my daily driver. I can only drive one car at a time. What is so hard to comprehend that this IS NOT FAIR. We can argue about this all day long but it appears neither is getting through to each other, so this is where it ends for me. I said my peace to my representatives, and if they vote for the bill I don't vote for them next election and I pass the info on to all my car buddies. It's really that simple to me. Democracy at work.

PS one of my democrat representatives didn't bother responding to my email, but was happy to put me on their spam list. Their staff members don't have the time to intelligently respond, but have the time to spam me, gotta love it. I'd rather sit on a phone tree pushing buttons randomly. This is what we vote for.
Thank you for taking action, hustler. We greatly appreciate your efforts. If you haven't already, please be sure to sign-up with SAN for FREE at www.SEMASAN.com. This is a busy legislative session and becoming a SAN member is the only way to stay informed by getting up-to-the-minute alerts sent directly to your in-box. We don't spam you, either. Just give you want you need to defend the hobby.

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I guess we're just going to disagree then. You say they're singling out a community for increased fees. I say they're changing the law that already singles out a community for lower fees.

And in the big picture, it doesn't matter if car collectors are dirt poor or have billions in the bank. Taxes should be fair for everyone. Throwing out the fact that people on fixed incomes may not be able to afford something isn't a logical argument and only appeals to emotion.
It is 100% logical. We here at SAN want to keep the hobby alive. We want to keep old cars out on the road. Pricing people out of the game will not do that.

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post #25 of 36 Old 02-28-2011, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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The bill will not receive consideration this year.

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post #26 of 36 Old 02-28-2011, 11:53 AM
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If somebody can't afford a $30 annual tag fee, they probably aren't doing much with the car either. This whole thing is a big deal about nothing.
x2.

everyone pays extra for plates that are different from the normal state issue plate. if i want a veteran plate, it costs extra. if i want a route 66 plate, it costs extra. if i want a free fubar plate, it costs extra. BFD if the collector car guys have to pay extra too.

as for the import weenies thinking their one of 2.5 million made civic 2-door will be a collector in 25 years.........semasan is just piping smoke up your ass.
post #27 of 36 Old 02-28-2011, 12:25 PM
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If you guys only realized that it takes groups like SEMA to protect citizens from being taxed for everything in our lives, you might have a different opinion. If you realized that if governments taxed $30 here, $40 there, $30 here it all adds up. If you just allow our government to just spend spend spend without boundaries you would find that there would be no way back to lower taxes. Sounds familiar right? Our government rarely goes under budget each year for its departments. They make sure they spend every dime even on ridiculous projects just to make sure they get the same amount allotted each year. That is not responsible governance. Instead of having a savings for years when tough times come along (like the current state of the economy) we end up with the fallout we are currently in even at the state and federal levels. Our government spends tax dollars recklessly and that is why I oppose new tax measures until they can cleanup their own house.

Lawmakers could tax you for taking a #### in the woods if they could and you would have no power except to vote in people to repeal the laws which is difficult. You just don't get it and can't see past the surface. You can't compare supporting some group by buying their license plate to a collectors plate. The plate indicates the vehicle is for specific limited use only, as opposed to supporting a group where you have regular driving privileges. I pay an additional 40 dollars a year on my daily driver to support a cause with a specialty plate, so its not about being a cheap ass as you guys make the argument out to be. It's too bad you can't see below the surface of these type of laws, because it doesn't bode well for the voting public. In fact if we turned into a nanny state reliant on our government to decide what to do with our paychecks we wouldn't even be able to drive "hobbyist" cars. Good luck with that.
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post #28 of 36 Old 02-28-2011, 04:40 PM
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If you guys only realized that it takes groups like SEMA to protect citizens from being taxed for everything in our lives, you might have a different opinion..
BUT sema doesn't protect citizens from being taxed for everything in our lives so i am confident my opinion of them won't change
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The bill will not receive consideration this year.

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That's too bad. I guess the taxpayers in Washington state will continue to subsidize the hobby of a selected few.
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post #30 of 36 Old 03-01-2011, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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SuckersWalk: The difference is, those plates are used on the road daily. As I mentioned earlier, collector/antique plates shouldn't be held to the same standard as "regular" plates in terms of fees because they're used alot less, typically about 1/3 of the time. Doesn't make sense.

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post #31 of 36 Old 03-01-2011, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
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We don't fight for all tax issues, certainly. We fight tax issues that will have effects on the hobby and enthusiasts. While SAN understands the economic troubles facing the states, there are other ways to get back into the black without targeting our community.

How would you feel if your state wanted to issue a tax on cars with power adders like turbos or superchargers? Or, if they wanted to tax all 8-cylinder cars or cars of a displacement over 3.0 liters? Would that be ok?

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post #32 of 36 Old 03-01-2011, 03:13 PM
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SuckersWalk: The difference is, those plates are used on the road daily. As I mentioned earlier, collector/antique plates shouldn't be held to the same standard as "regular" plates in terms of fees because they're used alot less, typically about 1/3 of the time. Doesn't make sense.
i've seen plenty of "collector" plated cars on the road "daily" so i disagree. if you are trailering a car to and from shows only, then forgo the plates all together. the plates i had on my late model mustang weren't used on the the road daily either. there was a four year stretch the car was only driven four times a year and clocked a total of 185 miles for that period. one standard plate at one price and pay the fee for the ability to drive it on the road every year.....if people want anything special, pay the premium price that comes with wanting to be special regardless of how much the car will see the road.
post #33 of 36 Old 03-01-2011, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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You're probably seeing them on the road while they're using the mileage granted to them in Missouri. Finally, regarding what you said about not getting plates if the car will be trailered, the law differs from state-to-state. Some states require all vehicles to have plates.

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post #34 of 36 Old 03-03-2011, 11:50 AM
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You're probably seeing them on the road while they're using the mileage granted to them in Missouri.
not so much in MO, but other states I visit and have lived.....WA, CA, FL, AL, TN.
post #35 of 36 Old 03-03-2011, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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Still, likely using their mileage allowance. If they're skirting the law, they should be punnished.

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