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post #1 of 23 Old 01-11-2006, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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What to race next?

OK, so the new American Sedan brake rule may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. I simply can't justify spending $1,400 or more on front brakes that are only 12 inches. Certainly I could keep running what I have, but is it really feasible that I can keep up with a 12.2" x 1.125", 4-piston setup with a set of 12.0" x 1.1" rotors and 2-piston PBRs? Which could also very well necessitate the purchase of at least two new sets of wheels.

Not to mention the fact that I'd like to go racing Nationals with SCCA. To do that I'm going to need a set of $8,000 shocks and a $10,000+ engine that makes over 420 BHP. Which would then require a switch to a Tremec TKO trans and all the associated hardware that that would entail. There goes another $2000.

I've been doing OK in Regionals, but I would like to get better at driving. The only way to do that is to up the level of competition. I'm certain I'll get my ass handed to me for the first few years, but who doesn't?

I have the following restrictions in my choices:
1) It must be a Mustang (I know it's not a great car and to soup one up is turd polishing at its finest, but for financial reasons I need to make the Mustang work.)

2) It will be an SCCA class

With that in mind I have been contemplating the following:

1) Race T1 in a 2003-2004 Cobra against Vipers, Vettes, Porsches, and cheat like hell. With the ultimate goal to get either the car's weight reduced, or to have additional parts allowed for the car.

2) Race T2 in a 2003-2004 Mach 1 (assuming it's legal) against Subaru STi's, Dodge Neon SRT-4, Cadillac CTS-V. This would require some significant "creative rules interpretation" or possibly even a little cheating to keep up with the completely massaged $50,000+ factory cars.

3) Race in T3 in a 2003-2004 Mustang GT (with Bullitt brakes and springs as allowed by the rules), against other rice cars. This would probably only require some creative rules interpretation.

T1 would have going for it the fact that nobody else is racing that car in it. So you could probably get away with a few things. Of course this probably goes for the other two classes as well.

I would sell my American Sedan car, which is pretty fast as it stands now and would have no problems going and winning just about any regional division in the country.

So, any suggestions?


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin


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post #2 of 23 Old 01-11-2006, 09:52 PM
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Screw the Mustang, if you want to learn to drive better and be more competative, get into a Spec Miata.

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post #3 of 23 Old 01-12-2006, 09:39 PM
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I don't think the brakes will make much difference, but you probably do need at least $4k in shocks, and AS engines are just stupid expensive. If you must stay in a Mustang (and hey, as the founder of this site, you must!), then AS or T3 is probably your best bet. Unless you can find heaps of cash and run GT1.

A couple years ago somebody brought a T1 03 Cobra to the Runoffs and got their butt handed to them. Really not a suprise- it's 600+ lbs heaver than a Vette, with about the same HP, poor balance, and less rubber.

In T2, Dave Schotz had a good qualifying run, but ran the tires off his LS1 Firebird trying to keep up with the Subarus. The Firebird is a better racecar than a Mach 1- more power, around 200 lbs lighter, with a better rear suspension, and Schotz is an awesome driver.

So by process of elimination, I'd say try T3- if you want a change. All racing requires creative rules interpretation, and big $$$ to be near the front at the top levels. Once you run Nationals for a few years that will be very clear. Call DePedro and ask what a front running National or Pro Spec Miata will cost- they're up to AS prices by the time you buy and dyno 10 or so engines to get a top national engine. Those extra 5 horses are critical when the class is tight and loads of talented people are racing for Mazda's money.

Learning to drive might be difficult in T3- I'm not sure there will be big enough fields in NEDIV or SEDIV. Although trying to keep up with the T2 cars might teach you something. Actually AS might be a really good place to continue improving your driving- some of the top national guys run NEDIV nationals.

Are there any site advertisers that might be able to build you say a 400 HP A-Sedan legal engine at a substantial discount in exchange for some extra advertising?

Non-mustang choices for learning to drive, if they were an option, would be Formula SCCA ($5,000 for the regional champion this year!), Formula Continental, Formula Vee, and if you like doing bodywork- Spec Miata.

Justin
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post #4 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 07:47 AM
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Gee, I always thought F-bodies were heavier than Mustangs. Guess not!
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post #5 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 08:38 AM
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I believe Schotz had some trouble with third gear, he dropped a few positions pretty quick.

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post #6 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 09:37 AM
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I'm the fool that tried to run a Cobra in T1 two years ago. The car was a 04. Before I started the project I lined up help from Steeda and talked to the Comp Board about adjustments that I knew we would need to make. I had assurances that they would help the car out, but in the end they disapproved all my requests except for a new radiator, diff cooler, trans cooler and sub frame bushings. Steeda, at the time William Mathis, and I put togather a "Steeda T1 Kit", but it was shot down as outside the class philosphy. The Cobra was close to 600lbs heavier than the Z06's and only the Caddy CTS-V is heavier in the whole GCR. I ran anywhere from 6 to 10 seconds slower at National races. Plus the car would overheat at the drop of a hat. When we finally got the alternate radiator approved at the Runoffs were able to run the whole race and not overheat, but the temps were at 230 to 235f and I only went to 6000rpm instead of 7300rpm. In the end I gave up after my attempts to get adjustments were rebuffed. The Comp Board didn't want to give the Cobra any help as it might upset the Z06 drivers. I stripped the car and built it into a WCGT/NASA AIX car and it is currently for sale now that my time is taken up with my daughters racing.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25201

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post #7 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindc1
I believe Schotz had some trouble with third gear, he dropped a few positions pretty quick.
That's what I heard to.

I'd like to see an '05 Mustang in T2, maybe in a couple of years I'll be running mine there after I finish my degree, and get a new daily driver.


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Last edited by SoftBatch; 01-13-2006 at 10:10 AM.
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post #8 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 11:36 AM Thread Starter
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Ah, just the man I wanted to talk to! My name is Don Quixote and I like to take non-competitive cars and race them against competition that is 25 years younger.

What do you think the possibility of getting a weight reduction for the car would be? Power wise was it possible to keep up with the other cars, in a straight line at least, and was all the extra time lost in the corners?

Would the 03/04 Cobra be competitive in T2 vs. T1?

That's all the questions I can think of right now. I'm sure I'll have more!

C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyne
I'm the fool that tried to run a Cobra in T1 two years ago. The car was a 04. Before I started the project I lined up help from Steeda and talked to the Comp Board about adjustments that I knew we would need to make. I had assurances that they would help the car out, but in the end they disapproved all my requests except for a new radiator, diff cooler, trans cooler and sub frame bushings. Steeda, at the time William Mathis, and I put togather a "Steeda T1 Kit", but it was shot down as outside the class philosphy. The Cobra was close to 600lbs heavier than the Z06's and only the Caddy CTS-V is heavier in the whole GCR. I ran anywhere from 6 to 10 seconds slower at National races. Plus the car would overheat at the drop of a hat. When we finally got the alternate radiator approved at the Runoffs were able to run the whole race and not overheat, but the temps were at 230 to 235f and I only went to 6000rpm instead of 7300rpm. In the end I gave up after my attempts to get adjustments were rebuffed. The Comp Board didn't want to give the Cobra any help as it might upset the Z06 drivers. I stripped the car and built it into a WCGT/NASA AIX car and it is currently for sale now that my time is taken up with my daughters racing.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25201


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin


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post #9 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 11:36 AM
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Thumbs down I like Miatas, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 92coupe
if you want to learn to drive better and be more competative, get into a Spec Miata.
I've heard it called wreck miata...in addition to the 'non-spec' issues he'd have to deal with.
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post #10 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 11:59 AM
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I tried both routes. I asked for a 200lbs weight reduction and the response back was that the car was correctly classified for weight. The SCCA uses the weight that is supplied by the factory and the removes a % of weight for things like radio's and A/C and adds weight for safety items like the roll cage.

I also looked into moving the car to T2, but at the time the Comp Board was against it. To my suprise the cars that I had the best races with and could keep up with, the Subaru STI WRX and BMW M3, were both moved to T2. At most races where T1 and T2 were on the track I would end up "racing" with T2 and AS cars. The biggest problem is that Ford has no friends on the Touring sub committe or Comp Board like GM does.

Road America was the track I had my best run at and I still finished last in T1, but I was able to beat all the T2 cars for a change. I think if the Cobra went to T2 it would get a restrictor on the intake and possible more weight. The Comp Board would most likely say no for fear they would put a over dog in the class.

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post #11 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 12:46 PM
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Chris, based on how you imagine your car would be sorted out, which of the three classes you mentioned above would you be running mid pack with? My goal would be as yours is, to get better at driving. I personally would prefer to be in a class where the competition would push me to where I would have to really focus on increasing my skill level in order to be competetive. I think that would make top 10 or top 15 finishes feel much more gratifying, because you scrapped it up in the trenches to get there. JMO
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post #12 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
I've heard it called wreck Miata...in addition to the 'non-spec' issues he'd have to deal with.
You can build a complete (and competitive) Spec Miata for the cost of a single ASedan engine (national level)... The "spec" part of cheating in Spec Miata has nothing on what takes place in ASedan. The reason it is nicknamed "Wreck Miata" is because no matter what position you're running in the race, there is always someone to race with; when the cars are that close, there will always be contact.
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post #13 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 07:47 PM
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I just looked up the GCR weights:
T1 C5 Corvette 3280
T1 03-04 Cobra 3780
T2 98-02 Camaro & Formula Firebird 3530
T2 99-02 Cobra 3680
T2 03 Mach1 3480
T2 Evo 8 3380
T2 Subaru WRX STi 3380
T3 01-04 Mustang GT 3480

Looks like somebody did some good lobbying for the Mach 1 to get the weight down to 200 lbs under the 99 Cobra and 50 lbs less than the LS1s, but it's still probably giving up 40 RWHP to the LS1s.

Looking at the competition the T3 Mustang GT still looks like the best bet, even better since you can run Bullitt brakes and an SHM brake duct kit. The Cobalt and Saturn Ion Redline might be too much at 2890 lbs with tons of mods allowed- springs, control arms, aftercooler, and radiator. There's that good lobbying again.

Justin
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post #14 of 23 Old 01-13-2006, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe
I just looked up the GCR weights:
T1 C5 Corvette 3280
T1 03-04 Cobra 3780
T2 98-02 Camaro & Formula Firebird 3530
T2 99-02 Cobra 3680
T2 03 Mach1 3480
T2 Evo 8 3380
T2 Subaru WRX STi 3380
T3 01-04 Mustang GT 3480

Looks like somebody did some good lobbying for the Mach 1 to get the weight down to 200 lbs under the 99 Cobra and 50 lbs less than the LS1s, but it's still probably giving up 40 RWHP to the LS1s.

Looking at the competition the T3 Mustang GT still looks like the best bet, even better since you can run Bullitt brakes and an SHM brake duct kit. The Cobalt and Saturn Ion Redline might be too much at 2890 lbs with tons of mods allowed- springs, control arms, aftercooler, and radiator. There's that good lobbying again.

Justin

The Mach 1 is also allowed race springs in the front

Sean Hyland Motorsports Brake Duct
Kit Part # SHMVDK-TF approved.
Bulitt Springs allowed, part # 1R3Z-
5310-CA (F) 1R3Z-5560-AA (R). The
following parts are allowed: Front
springs Steeda part # 1214540001
(850-1050 lbs./in.), Steeda sway bar
# 006470, Steeda sway bar bushing
kit # 12245135G, Steeda strut
brace # 5555712,
Steeda clutch cable
#’s 5557041, 5557000, 1720201,
5557021, 5557025.


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post #15 of 23 Old 01-14-2006, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I have started the ball rolling! The car is now officially up for sale, and I have my eye out for a 2001-2004 Mustang GT 5-Speed. I am sure there will be as many teething pains with this car as there were for Domino, but at least I'll be dealing with a modern powerplant and car I can work on. (Don't know a thing about carburetors)

I have no illusions that this will not be any cheaper than American Sedan. But I may get to save some money on fuel since I can finally use pump gas. That should save me close to $100/race. Brake pads, and tires will probably run about the same. I'll save on oil and filters since I'll be using 1 less filter and about 4 quarts less oil per race. Wheels and tires will run about the same.

Being a new class though I think that I can at least give the smaller, lighter cars a run for their money. I may not be able to beat them, but hey, who knows?

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin


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post #16 of 23 Old 01-15-2006, 03:06 PM
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I dont know what the SCCA ITE class is like in DC region, but in the KC region the 00 Mustang GT that I crew on was very competitive this last season. Sounds like you've got your mind made up but I didnt see ITE listed so I figured Id mention it.

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post #17 of 23 Old 01-15-2006, 03:59 PM
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I am guessing that Chris wants a national class

Cream may rise to the top, but sometimes sh&t floats too.
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post #18 of 23 Old 08-12-2008, 12:11 AM
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just an idea....i just got back from grattan and a T1 ZO6 had lapped the fastest AS car and was leading him by about 15 seconds. hows that for a guy that works for GM.

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post #19 of 23 Old 08-13-2008, 01:12 AM
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Go T3

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post #20 of 23 Old 08-13-2008, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DillRacing87gt View Post
just an idea....i just got back from grattan and a T1 ZO6 had lapped the fastest AS car and was leading him by about 15 seconds. hows that for a guy that works for GM.
John Heinricy represents a little more than just "a guy that works for GM".
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post #21 of 23 Old 08-13-2008, 10:43 AM
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Wow -- old thread.

So Chris, what did you end you doing?

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post #22 of 23 Old 08-13-2008, 01:46 PM
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i didn't know his name. we usually do one race in michigan a year and thats the first time i've seen the car. anyway he's got his act together. would he happen to be partial owner of GM?

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post #23 of 23 Old 08-13-2008, 01:50 PM
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scratch that...i want his job

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