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post #1 of 13 Old 10-28-2005, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Future of Mustangs with new SCCA rules

Looks like EVO's and STIs leave ESP and go to BSP
03/04 Cobras go to FS---WHAT ABOUT ESP?
A myriad of cars go to FS as well.

SM is not a good place for Stangs.

FS is out for fox bodies. The newer ones may find it to tough to compete against the 03 cobra.

Where is the autocross future for Mustangs headed? Where will we be the most competitive?

It looks like ESP to me...

Thanks in advance.


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post #2 of 13 Old 10-28-2005, 02:39 PM
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Well, Dave Schotz won FS in a Mach 1 a year or so ago. No reason it couldn't be done again. I can't see the M5 or Caddie winning, can you?

Late Cobras are really heavy, most of it added in front. Not likely nationally competitive in FS or ESP. There's one that runs locally in ESP. He can just keep up with my stock SOHC powered ESP automatic convertible. Of course, neither of us are national caliber, but still . . .

About the only place a Fox can win nationally is CP. Fun class, not exactly streetable.

The 2005 GT is an unknown quantity - a bit heavier and more powerful than the 2-valve SN95's, but better rear suspension. Might work in FS, but in ESP all the SN95 deficits can be addressed, though not cheaply, and they can be made even lighter through update/backdate, which is denied the '05.

Might get interesting. At least the damn rallye cars are gone.


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post #3 of 13 Old 10-28-2005, 10:15 PM
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I'm not a fan of SP classes in any car- good cars aren't any more streetable than SM, they are just as expensive, and slower- much slower on the street or a racetrack.

Either CP or SM is a good place for a Mustang. Unless you're trying to win a national championship, or have someone in your region who is, you should be able to be competitive in either class.

Convertibles don't do well anywhere- the extra weight and more flexible chassis are not good for performance. You could probably do ok in CP with a good cage.

The 03/04 Cobra should do well in FS- I think the IRS, extra wheel width and power will make up for the weight. If anybody near the DC area has one and wants to find out, I have the wheels, tires, and skills. There's a pretty quick Mach 1 in my region, and a couple decent FS Camaros (NEDIV & SEDIV champions) for comparison.

Justin
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post #4 of 13 Old 10-28-2005, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe
I'm not a fan of SP classes in any car- good cars aren't any more streetable than SM, they are just as expensive, and slower- much slower on the street or a racetrack.

Justin
I agree with your points as to streetability (and being slower ). But not on cost.

I've spent most of what is needed for ESP, admittedly on the wrong car, but I'm doing this for fun and the occasional local trophy. In SM, I could spend many thousands more and be even less competitive. I'll pass.

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post #5 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 12:04 PM
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Not to take over the thread, but do you know if any one AX's an X type Jag.
I would think that with the 5 speed sport model and 3.0 V6 it could be a fun car.
I would say for the most part Mustangs have always been handy capped in AX.

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post #6 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 01:31 PM
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The base car you need for ESP costs a few thousand more than my Fox body coupe. An SM car makes up for the cost difference with:
front coil overs
front control arms & X2 balljoints
stroker kit

Other than that most of the mods are similar- just slightly different choices. For example, a good SP car should GT40 aluminum heads, a Cobra cam, Cobra roller rockers, an aftermarket intake, injectors, fuel pump, throttle body, mass air sensor, headers, Cobra R hood. A good SM car will better performing versions of all those parts at similar cost. A really good ESP car would have a 351 swap.

Now if you try to go to the limit in SM, yes, it's more money. And starting with a Mustang would be foolish. An old RX-2, Corolla, or Starlet would be much better.

For fun and an occasional trophy, prep the car how you want it, and drive it wherever it fits. Sometimes going up a class like to CP or EM might get you more trophies.

Have fun!

Justin
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post #7 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 06:10 PM
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Well, an SM car "needs" maybe 450 reliable horsepower - that's about $10,000.00 in engine alone and this will require a beefier transmission, another $2,000.00. Of course a stronger clutch, preferably dual disk with aluminum flywheel, will be necessary.

Then there's the CF front fenders and hood, the 8-point cage (you'll really need this if you start with the lightest FOX, a 1979 hatch, less so with an SN95 hardtop), Penske's, even bigger wheels and tires, rear coilovers. Then there are the "little" things like machined rear end gears, a CF driveshaft, rear end housing mods (custom camber and toe bending, 9" outer ends), drilled axles, dropped front spindles, rear lcas, lighter hubs/brakes, a big-ass rear wing and front splitter. Probably a few more I haven't thought of. Not to mention a lot of setup, testing and tuning of all the new components. If you don't already have a trailer, well, better get one. And a tow vehicle.

Of course, the necessity of any of the above is arguable, but even with all that, you are an also-ran if a national-level M3 shows up. At least in ESP, a Mustang can demonstrably win a National title (pre- and post-rallye car era. at least).

I ran in SM when it started out. As I modified my car, it got faster. But, the class was getting faster more rapidly then I was. I steadily slid downwards in finishing order. Seeing the handwriting on the wall, I decontented my car a bit and found a home in ESP. Yes, some of the rules are dumb and there things I can't do to the car I'd really like to. But, it's home for now. We usually have 5-10 ESP cars locally, but just one in CP and none in EM. It's nice to have someone to race with and, hopefully, beat from time to time.

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post #8 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe
Other than that most of the mods are similar- just slightly different choices. For example, a good SP car should GT40 aluminum heads, a Cobra cam, Cobra roller rockers, an aftermarket intake, injectors, fuel pump, throttle body, mass air sensor, headers, Cobra R hood. A good SM car will better performing versions of all those parts at similar cost. A really good ESP car would have a 351 swap.

Justin
Justin, most of these mods you list are ILLegal in ESP. You can't modify the engine from stock. Bolt-ons only. You could probably use GT40 CAST heads found on a 93 Cobra. No hood, no rocker arms, no cam. Search for 2005 SCCA rules, you'll find a pdf file to look at the SP rules.

Vic

1990 Mustang GT Triple black convertible
koni yellows-FS on ebay MM cc plates-FS, $130

full length SFCs, aluminum d/s, 4.10s. 5 lug, O/R H, Flowmaster, Pro 5.0 shifter. Stock engine. 14.4 @96
Yeah, I'm retiring the old 5.0 from autocross
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post #9 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livenfine
Justin, most of these mods you list are ILLegal in ESP. You can't modify the engine from stock. Bolt-ons only. You could probably use GT40 CAST heads found on a 93 Cobra. No hood, no rocker arms, no cam. Search for 2005 SCCA rules, you'll find a pdf file to look at the SP rules.

Vic
On a 93 the hood would be illegal, but the rest is legit. Engines must be updated as a complete unit, so if you want Cobra heads, you need the cam and rockers that go with them in order to be legal. The cam is near unobtainable. The heads are no longer available, they have been superceded by the GT40 aluminum heads. It's legal- just takes a fair amount of research and documentation. You'll find this on the top ESP Mustangs. BTW, you can balance, port match, and blueprint the engine too. Costs just as much to do for ESP as it does for SM. It's really only an issue if you go all out.

Justin
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post #10 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rfloz
Of course, the necessity of any of the above is arguable, but even with all that, you are an also-ran if a national-level M3 shows up.
What I have right now isn't that far prepped, but the M3 that finished 16th out of 40 at the solo nationals runs in my region with two drivers. The better driver didn't go to Topeka. We run neck & neck- usually .1 seconds either way. The last event before Topeka I beat the better driver by 0.1, and the car owner by 1.3 on a 58 second course.

Bench racing that delta for each course into the national results would have me well in the trophies, and only 3 M3s ahead of me. Now that's far from certain since I wasn't actually there, but I think Mustangs have a better shot than most folks think. At least until someone builds a car to the limit of the rules.

My car only has 400 reliable HP, a Tremec TKO, a steel driveshaft, repacked t-loc in a stock 8.8 with 1/2 degree negative camber per side, no aerodynamic improvements, and rides on puny 275/40-17s.

I agree with you on the competition aspect- I like having 20+ cars in my class. CP locally was 3-5 cars last year, 9 this year. It's 2-5 seconds slower than SM here, but due to the funky Prepared rules I'd need to add about 400 lbs of ballast to run my car there.

If you're happy in ESP, by all means keep playing there. I really enjoyed CP back when I was daily driving my 92. Much more fun than running FS in Camaros, even if it wasn't much faster.

Justin

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post #11 of 13 Old 10-29-2005, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe
On a 93 the hood would be illegal, but the rest is legit. Engines must be updated as a complete unit, so if you want Cobra heads, you need the cam and rockers that go with them in order to be legal. The cam is near unobtainable. The heads are no longer available, they have been superceded by the GT40 aluminum heads. It's legal- just takes a fair amount of research and documentation. You'll find this on the top ESP Mustangs. BTW, you can balance, port match, and blueprint the engine too. Costs just as much to do for ESP as it does for SM. It's really only an issue if you go all out.
TRUE?!? This is what I like about this forum. I didn't realize this BIG eye opener...ThankS

1990 Mustang GT Triple black convertible
koni yellows-FS on ebay MM cc plates-FS, $130

full length SFCs, aluminum d/s, 4.10s. 5 lug, O/R H, Flowmaster, Pro 5.0 shifter. Stock engine. 14.4 @96
Yeah, I'm retiring the old 5.0 from autocross
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post #12 of 13 Old 10-30-2005, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livenfine
TRUE?!? This is what I like about this forum. I didn't realize this BIG eye opener...ThankS
Hey, don't listen to him - he's old.

Bob F.
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post #13 of 13 Old 10-30-2005, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe
What I have right now isn't that far prepped, but the M3 that finished 16th out of 40 at the solo nationals runs in my region with two drivers. The better driver didn't go to Topeka. We run neck & neck- usually .1 seconds either way. The last event before Topeka I beat the better driver by 0.1, and the car owner by 1.3 on a 58 second course.

Bench racing that delta for each course into the national results would have me well in the trophies, and only 3 M3s ahead of me. Now that's far from certain since I wasn't actually there, but I think Mustangs have a better shot than most folks think. At least until someone builds a car to the limit of the rules.
Justin
John in Huston (Blatantly Illegal Mustang, search Corner-Carvers.com) ran SM the first year and wasn't competitive. He had a pretty stout Fox with either full Griggs or MM (can't remember which), including a tubular k-member (thus the illegal part). It's not like SM is getting slower.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Unfortunately, weather at the Nationals conspires to keep time comparisons between ESP pony cars and SM from being very meaningful. Jurgenson's car git whipped pretty good in ESP by the rallye-mobiles, though.

Ya, FS in a Mustang sucks. Dave S. managed to win in the Mach 1, but they are not much fun to drive stock.

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