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post #1 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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street modified rules changes

I see that there are some rule changes on the way for SM(according to a Fasttrack I saw) . It looks like K-members will be an allowable modification. I know SM isn't necessarilly the place to play with a Mustang and the a K-member probably wouldn't make it nationally competitive, but the overwhelming silence on this has been deafening. Any thoughts?

I see dropped spindles came up again. Just to blow off some steam here, it seems that it's a little late to the party. 20 years ago I bet you couldn't have kept up with the demand.


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post #2 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 10:14 AM
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There is some resistance to this proposed rule change from import drivers that compete in SM. I asked about this rule a few weeks ago on SCCA Forums and they are dead set against it. Here is a LINK to the thread on it.

My thoughts are that even if it doesn't make a Mustang competitive at the Nationals it would allow K-member equipped Mustangs the opportunity to compete regionally. Right now I have to compete in CP with my street legal Mustang because of my K-member.


Last edited by Glenn; 10-25-2005 at 10:18 AM.
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post #3 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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That's what I was looking for. Ha, the main complainer of this drives an mr2 turbo?? That's almost laughable. As if there's any threat from a mustang with a bolt on k member. I realize that the original intent of the class was to retain the original body suspension location points. The bolt on k-member debate doesn't fly in the face of these rules, but does require some "interpretation clarification". When there becomes a few class killers, it's time to re-examine the rules. I suppose there could be a downside to a rule like this. If your car has a bolt on K-member you could design an optimal front suspension and bolt it on. I would think the weight penalties would discourage lighter cars from going this direction. I think there are just a bunch of V8 haters out there.

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post #4 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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I just looked at the thread the mr2 guy was referencing and it was talking about the whole torque arm debate (whether the front mount should be allowed to bolt to a cossmember connected to subframes) not k-members. This does fly directly in the face of the rules. Obviously a V8 hater. BTW Can you say EVM tri-link?

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post #5 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 04:07 PM
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Actually if the SCCA would just kinda keep up with the times SM would never have been needed. All the mods in SM could have been funneled in to SP and prepared classes. They were just to friggin stubburn to allow body kits and certain popular street suspension stuff into the Street Prepared class.
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post #6 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Han Solo
Actually if the SCCA would just kinda keep up with the times SM would never have been needed. All the mods in SM could have been funneled in to SP and prepared classes. They were just to friggin stubburn to allow body kits and certain popular street suspension stuff into the Street Prepared class.
Well, to be fair, at least some silly body kits and cross-drilled brake rotors get into SM through it's adoption of all things ST.

Several of us fought the battle to make SM rational. SP could have used an update, as you suggest. But, SP is seen as set in stone (except for throwing the rallye cars at us). So, we tried to get SM to adopt common street/performance modifications. No sale. One man's (tunnel) vision was adopted. Pony cars need not apply. Too bad.

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post #7 of 20 Old 10-25-2005, 10:00 PM
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We all have different opinions and they are usually based on a section of rules that don't make sense to us because we got bumped to a class we didn't want to run in. My personal pet peeve is not allowing bumpsteer kits and extended ball joints in Street Prepared while they allow the lowering springs that usually create the need for those corrections. So the old school powers that be say it's always been like that so tuff. You can lower your car and run SP but if you want to correct the roll center and bumpsteer problems created by this mod you have to go to SM.

I know my opinions are unpopular with a lot of folks. Personally I think SP should allow anything you can bolt on to the original suspension points along with popular street performance stuff like triangulated strut tower braces and panhard bars and such. On the other hand I think all street classes should require the cars to at least be legal to operate on the street and emissions entact. I think allowing the removal of emissions equipment in a so called street class is irresponsible and makes the club look bad. (this is one of my unpopular opinions, LOL) Once you start changing sub frames, k members, camshafts, and removing emissions I think you fall under the prepared catagory. I don't believe this should be allowed in SP or SM but again I think SM was an unnecessary class to begin with.

Last edited by Han Solo; 10-25-2005 at 10:06 PM.
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post #8 of 20 Old 10-26-2005, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Han Solo
We all have different opinions and they are usually based on a section of rules that don't make sense to us because we got bumped to a class we didn't want to run in. My personal pet peeve is not allowing bumpsteer kits and extended ball joints in Street Prepared while they allow the lowering springs that usually create the need for those corrections. So the old school powers that be say it's always been like that so tuff. You can lower your car and run SP but if you want to correct the roll center and bumpsteer problems created by this mod you have to go to SM.

I know my opinions are unpopular with a lot of folks. Personally I think SP should allow anything you can bolt on to the original suspension points along with popular street performance stuff like triangulated strut tower braces and panhard bars and such. On the other hand I think all street classes should require the cars to at least be legal to operate on the street and emissions entact. I think allowing the removal of emissions equipment in a so called street class is irresponsible and makes the club look bad. (this is one of my unpopular opinions, LOL) Once you start changing sub frames, k members, camshafts, and removing emissions I think you fall under the prepared catagory. I don't believe this should be allowed in SP or SM but again I think SM was an unnecessary class to begin with.

Yeah. If you started a rule set from scratch and took into account all the cars and aftermarket parts available to day, I think you'd see a lot of changes. You could set up a true progression, keep the bottom two sets of classes 49 state legal, move some SP mods down, some up and eliminate an entire set of classes, etc. You could add a single radical street class, basically anything with a license plate for the guys who just can't abide class rules (lots of regions have this locally.)

Not bloody likely, though.

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post #9 of 20 Old 10-26-2005, 05:40 PM
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If I put a K-member on my '95GT + $10K of more work including a motor it wouldn't make much difference in my region (SF) against the EVO's and big money M3's

Last edited by kpl; 10-27-2005 at 10:41 AM. Reason: grammer/clarity
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post #10 of 20 Old 10-26-2005, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpl
If I put a K-member on my '95GT + $10K of more work including a motor it wouldn't make much different in my region (SF) against the EVO's and big money M3's
Sure it will. You won't be competing against them anymore - you will be in C Prepared.


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post #11 of 20 Old 10-27-2005, 10:40 AM
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my point was if the aftermarket K-member was legal in SM
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post #12 of 20 Old 10-27-2005, 11:02 AM
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If it won't make a difference, why do you want it so bad? If it still won't make you competitive in SM, what is wrong with running CP? You currently aren't competive in SM, so not being competitive in CP shouldn't be much different.

People complain that Dennis Grant catered the class to his own desires and then they want the class to cater to their own personal desires. If K-members are allowed, don't you think that all the M3's will be developing and fabricating their own fancy "drop in" k-members?
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post #13 of 20 Old 10-27-2005, 11:24 AM
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who said anything about wanting it so bad...I could care less really. I modded the car to opentrack, and just run auto-x when I'm not doing that. It just happens that the car fit into SM with the mods on it so that's where I run. I'd rather have a class that better fit the car, with the typical mods people do, in the first place.
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You currently aren't competive in SM, so not being competitive in CP shouldn't be much different.
except that would cost me a K-member. I might as well stay in SM and keep the money.
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post #14 of 20 Old 10-27-2005, 11:29 AM
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General questions not specifically directed towards you.
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post #15 of 20 Old 10-27-2005, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpl
except that would cost me a K-member. I might as well stay in SM and keep the money.
A Mustang is a crapload more fun to drive with a good K-member. Between the K-member, TA and wider wheels/tires I can now be competitive with the Z06's in our region's events for a hell of a lot less money than a Z06 costs. I do have to compete in CP though and sometimes against stripped out full blown race cars. That sucks when I am driving a street legal car.

I for one would like to see K-members approved for SM. I would not dominate SM with my car but would be in the running at least. The only reason I do well in CP regionally is because there isn't a lot of competition. This year I have competed against a total of 3 other drivers in CP. The most an any event has been 3 including me. SM usually has anywhere from 5 to 10 drivers and has over 35 cars registered as SM in the central Florida region. My wife has competed unopposed al year in CPL except at one event where someone from out of state entered.
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post #16 of 20 Old 10-28-2005, 12:40 AM
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One thing I have liked about running in SM is having a class with more than 2 or 3 cars on a regular basis to run against. That and the fact that I have 4 SM wins out of 6 events this year in my region. If I wouldn't have missed 4 events I could have had the regional championship locked up in SM. I've been running a little over a half second faster than the second place WRX SM car with a GT that is not near prepared to SM specs. I did one event in Jax and finished 3rd in class with 12 SM entries. It will be interesting to see how bad I get spanked in Gainesville. 18 SM entries there with several high ranking National class drivers. The guy registered there with the M3 has a 3rd place and two 2nd place National finishes over the past 3 years in other classes. He has been co driving other peoples cars the last two years. He brought the M3 which is his car to our region one time and took FTD on street tires running it in STU. I've seen Ian get in someones car that he has never sat his butt in and beat the owners times by over a second. That young man can flat drive.

OOPS, I'm getting off topic huh, LOL.
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post #17 of 20 Old 10-28-2005, 07:30 AM
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Yeah, Ian competes in my region at MSCC and SCCA events. His times on street tires a very close to my times on V710's. When my tires have a lot of runs on them he can beat me on his street tires. He is a very good driver.

Ian will also be doing the SVTOA event at GIR on November 6th with us. I usually do very well at GIR if it is a no cones course. I think I might ask him to take my car for a lap or two to see how much I'm leaving on the table.
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post #18 of 20 Old 10-28-2005, 07:43 AM
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Maybe there oughtta be a street-legal "anything goes" category.
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post #19 of 20 Old 10-28-2005, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huesmann
Maybe there oughtta be a street-legal "anything goes" category.
It wouldn't work nationally, but suggest it to your region. Lots of regions have some sort of "open street" class and they are generally well subscribed and very fun for the more casual-type autocrossers.
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post #20 of 20 Old 10-28-2005, 01:09 PM
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Where we Run the "street-legal anything goes" category" is call OSP.

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