Bump Steer kits - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 10-19-2005, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Bump Steer kits

Hey guys,

What bump steer kits are you guys using? The Steeda and UPR look pretty good with enough adjustment. Anyone suggest anything? Any pros/cons to any of the kits?

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post #2 of 40 Old 10-19-2005, 09:02 PM
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MM front and rear. Be sure to buy MMs bumpsteer gauge, its easy to do and youll get the full benefits of the bumpsteer kit.

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post #3 of 40 Old 10-19-2005, 11:14 PM
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What makes you think you need a bumpsteer kit? Don't mean to be confrontational, but I've seen quite a few people buy them for no other reason than they're there to buy. With that said, I'd go straight for an MM kit and ignore the Steeda and UPR knockoff junk.
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post #4 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 01:35 AM
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If you do require it, I recommend the mm unit since no machining is required. I purchased the griggs unit and I had to have the spindle machined out for the bolt.

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post #5 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 07:48 AM
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I have the UPR. It bolted right on with no mods. One of the ends did get a little play in it after 20,000 miles but I live on a dirt road. Also the replacement end from UPR is only $10. Have been very happy with their stuff. Purchased BS kit and a shifter for 100 bucks each.
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post #6 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 09:17 AM
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They are used to get the correct tie rod angle by installing the shimmy/spacers. I use steeda and had no trouble. I also have to offset rack - n - pinion bushings installed to help get the correct angle. You have to do it on flat ground while the cars weight is on the springs (ie alignment rack). Remember steeda work directley with ford for R&D. The products they have work great. If you have it installed correctley the car will track better around the corners with bumps. This will help you hold your line in the corner. Less steering wheel jerking knocking you off line.

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post #7 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast1992lx
I'd go straight for an MM kit and ignore the Steeda and UPR knockoff junk.

WHY?? My Steeda kit is everybit as good as the MM kit with the tapered stud. I was able to adjust out most of my Bumpsteer with the steeda kit, but those taperstud kits all have their limitations.


Sorry, I just get sick of hearing " Maximum Motorsports and Griggs!! Nothing else is worth your time!!"

While I agree they make good product, they aren't the only suitable components on the market. I have mostly MM parts on my car, but I don't feel my Steeda parts are a compromise.

To answer the question, if your car isn't lowered too much, the Steeda kit will work great and it's a snap to install. You can make your own bumpsteer guage out of plywood and two cheap hinges from a hardware store. Do a Google or look in the Mathis Mustang Suspension book.

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post #8 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92MNstanger
Sorry, I just get sick of hearing " Maximum Motorsports and Griggs!! Nothing else is worth your time!!"
Its maybe the fact that Steeda has some bad business practices and other people's products some how end up being copied and then having a Steeda decal slapped on it. Thats what has made me go to MM, they have great tech help, incredibly detailed instructions and an overall better package of parts. That are matched to work together.
I agree some of the Steeda parts are very good. I like the tri-ax, had one on my T45, sold it and bought one for my T56. They sem to have alot of bling associated with their parts while MM and Griggs are used/tested and proven to perform on the race cars that Ive seen on track around here. I dont see that much steeda stuff on track, its usually on the street cars sitting in the parking lot watching us race.
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post #9 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 03:08 PM
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Well, I have a Triaxe shifter and one of their front stabars, so I don't think all of their products are junk. I've held bumpsteer kits from UPR, Steeda, and settled on an MM kit because the MM kit was more complete and had a greater and finer range of adjustability. The heim joints also appeared to be better quality. When it comes to heim joints, you get what you paid for. You can't buy a cheapie kit and expect the heim joints to be decent quality.
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post #10 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, we seem to be getting a little off topic...with that said...why do I need a bumpsteer kit? Well, that question would seem to have a fairly obvious answer in the fact that there is no easy way to get rid of bump and droop steer with one.

As far as kits go, it seems from what you guys have said the Steeda and MM are both good. So with either kit, did anyone have unusal trouble with installation or aligning the car (assuming everyone knows how to align a car properly)?

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post #11 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, we seem to be getting a little off topic...with that said...why do I need a bumpsteer kit? Well, that question would seem to have a fairly obvious answer in the fact that there is no easy way to get rid of bump and droop steer without one.

As far as kits go, it seems from what you guys have said the Steeda and MM are both good. So with either kit, did anyone have unusal trouble with installation or aligning the car (assuming everyone knows how to align a car properly)?
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post #12 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 08:48 PM
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If you have a k-member with relocated control arm pivots, you really need a bumpsteer kit or you'll have a very darty unpredictable car. If you significantly increase the caster your car has, you should probably get a bumpsteer kit. If you install SN95 spindles on a Fox Mustang, you should probably get a bumpsteer kit. If you purchase a bumpsteer kit and don't bumpsteer your car, you've pretty much wasted your money.

The tapered stud kits work fine on cars with stock k-members. If your car has the control arm pickup points raised 1" or more, you need to get the bolt through bumpsteer kit that requires drilling out the steering arm on the spindle. The tapered stud style won't have enough upward adjustment range.

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post #13 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 09:22 PM
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All you guys spouting off about the "inferior" bumpsteer kits...what are you basing it on? You say the MM kit has a finer range of adjustment, how do you figure that? Think about what a bump steer kit is for a minute and then justify how you can say the MM kit is VASTLY superior to the Steeda kit or the UPR kit. We're not tlaking about K-members or caster camber plates here.
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post #14 of 40 Old 10-20-2005, 10:56 PM
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Since UPR and Steeda are both located down here, they have displays at all the Ford related shows/races in the area. What makes the MM kit better, at least with the bolt through kit, is that they provide 2 different length bolts depending on the shim stack you need, and quite a few more shims of thicker and thinner size to get the bumpsteer closer to an ideal setting. The other kits I've seen only came with one length bolt, and the shims were fewer and did not offer as much of an adjustment range than the MM kit. I am not an expert concerning heim joints, but I would wager the heim joints in the MM kit are pretty high quality, whereas the UPR joints are probably whatever they can get to turn the maximum profit. Know anyone running a UPR bumpsteer kit in AI? The Steeda kit I've only handled once, and it appeared to be nice, but it still didn't offer the adjustment range of the MM kit. Perhaps their heim joints are good quality, but I'll just go with the MM kit and be done with it. With a cheap kit, maybe you can adjust the bumpsteer to where it's acceptable, but with a more comprehensive kit you can adjust it more precisely, and the cheap heim joints are going to crap out on you more quickly, especially on the street.

If you really want to do it the right way, find a chassis shop that can do the bumpsteer check for you and build a bumpsteer kit using one piece tubing for a spacer instead of multiple stack spacers. They'd probably get the bumpsteer setting near perfect.
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post #15 of 40 Old 06-04-2006, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley
If you have a k-member with relocated control arm pivots, you really need a bumpsteer kit or you'll have a very darty unpredictable car. If you significantly increase the caster your car has, you should probably get a bumpsteer kit. If you install SN95 spindles on a Fox Mustang, you should probably get a bumpsteer kit. If you purchase a bumpsteer kit and don't bumpsteer your car, you've pretty much wasted your money.

The tapered stud kits work fine on cars with stock k-members. If your car has the control arm pickup points raised 1" or more, you need to get the bolt through bumpsteer kit that requires drilling out the steering arm on the spindle. The tapered stud style won't have enough upward adjustment range.
I installed a set of MM 3/4" offset fox length arms on my 87 lx. I still have the C/C plates maxed on caster, and am currently still using fox spindles.

It turns out one of my tierods is very difficult to adjust, so I probably need at least the inner tierod and tierod end on that side.

But, I will be getting 96+ spindles sometime soon, and eventualy a kmember.

Is bumpsteere going to be a real big problem with the fox spindles and max caster? I don't want to have to keep buying multiple suporting pieces as I upgrade the car, or drilling the fox spindles and then replacing them and drilling the new spindles as well.

Just looking for suggestions as to what course to take as I upgrade the car - ie. when is a bumpsteere kit a neccesity. I supose for now, I could dial out some caster, and replace the inner/outer tie rod. but how much caster is too much is too much?
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post #16 of 40 Old 06-04-2006, 10:12 PM
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Bumpsteer with the Fox spindles and max caster won't be bad as long as you keep a stock K-member. Just don't install the 96 spindles until you do the K-member. Then you must use a bolt through bumpsteer kit and drill out the steering knuckles on the spindle for it.

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post #17 of 40 Old 06-05-2006, 08:44 AM
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thanks Jack.

Any estimate of just how much caster I have now, with the 3/4" offset arms and the plates fully maxed?
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post #18 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley
If you purchase a bumpsteer kit and don't bumpsteer your car, you've pretty much wasted your money.



What do you mean Jack?

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post #19 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 05:32 PM
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A bumpsteer kit allows you to adjust the vertical position of the outer tie rod. The purpose of this is to put the tie rod in the position where the front suspension has minimum bumpsteer (toe change with vertical suspension movement). The only way to know where the tie rod needs to be placed is to measure the bumpsteer curve of your front suspension with the tie rod in different vertical positions. This takes a few hours and requires some tools to do.

Therefore, if you buy a bumpsteer kit and don't bumpsteer your front suspension, you've wasted your money because you are getting no benefit from the kit. It's just like buying a pair of pants and not wearing them. What's the benefit?

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post #20 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 10:08 PM
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I respectfully disagree that there is no benefit to installing one and at least eyeballing it. Some improvement is better than no improvement even though much more can be gained by doing it right.
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post #21 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 10:20 PM
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My big concern is that I've seen people eyeball it and make the bumpsteer much worse than if they were using stock parts. If you eyeball it without a good understanding of what you are doing, I think you have a 33% chance of making things better.

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post #22 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFE
I respectfully disagree that there is no benefit to installing one and at least eyeballing it. Some improvement is better than no improvement even though much more can be gained by doing it right.
Frasier, in your opinion, what does "eyeballing" mean to you?

Does it mean parallel with the A-arm (while the suspension is loaded)?

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post #23 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 12:13 AM
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post #24 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 10:52 AM
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Jack is right. If you buy a bumpsteer kit and not set the bumpsteer with a good bumpsteer kit and a qualified person to do it you just wasted your money.

I have been racing Mustangs for 5 + years and do my own setup and also for those 20+ cars that I have done setups for over the years. You CANNOT eyeball the bumpsteer setting on a car. That is just bad advise even to someone with a trained eye. All cars have different geometry and having a good bumpsteer gauge that gets repeatable measurements is essential.

Having the minimum of bumpsteer goes a VERY long way to making this Mustangs handle and easy to drive. Ask me I know.

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post #25 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 11:19 AM
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Again, points taken from those who know, and I'm not trying to be the obtuse n00b in the way of good tech. I fully understand your and Jack's intentions, and I support them. However, if you're looking at, say, a fox car with a 5-lug conversion whose tie rod ends are pointing skyward and has abysmal bumpsteer tendencies as a result, installing a bumpsteer kit to get the tie rod angles back into some place reasonable is not a waste of money. Ask me how I know. I still haven't gotten around to correctly adjusting mine, and I need to because it's still not perfect, but it's far better than it was, before I had any adjustment capability in it at all.

That said, yes, mine needs to be done properly and I have indeed left satisfaction on the table by not prioritizing it better.
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post #26 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFE
Again, points taken from those who know, and I'm not trying to be the obtuse n00b in the way of good tech. I fully understand your and Jack's intentions, and I support them. However, if you're looking at, say, a fox car with a 5-lug conversion whose tie rod ends are pointing skyward and has abysmal bumpsteer tendencies as a result, installing a bumpsteer kit to get the tie rod angles back into some place reasonable is not a waste of money. Ask me how I know. I still haven't gotten around to correctly adjusting mine, and I need to because it's still not perfect, but it's far better than it was, before I had any adjustment capability in it at all.

That said, yes, mine needs to be done properly and I have indeed left satisfaction on the table by not prioritizing it better.
This obtuse n00b completely agrees with your posts above ...
Personal experience alone is not merit for validation.
It is completely accurate that dropping the tie rods on a lowered fox does improve bumpsteer. The geometry makes this an absolute.
Is it the perfect solution, no, but yes it does improve it ... and unfortunately there is no perfect setting as we all know.
A tie rod that bumps out/in 50% less from 'untreated' is 50% better.
Again, there is not a perfect solution, only real close and half-3qtrs "ideal" is better than no improvement at all.
However getting the rod parallel to the arm on a lowered fox is conterproductive ... the arm set parallel to the ground though is moving in the right direction towards minimization.

There is nothing to see here ...
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post #27 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 04:36 PM
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Well, I have no desire to even try to invalidate Ernesto's experience, as he's an experienced racer of these things, just as Jack Hidley knows more about their front ends than all the rest of us combined.

And yes, there is a rather perfect solution, that being the one that produces the least amount of measured bumpsteer in the range of suspension travel that's most important to you, but you may have meant that it's not possible to produce zero bumpsteer and you're likely right.

Your last comment is probably exactly the kind of thing causing Jack and Ernesto consternation regarding recommending doing anything but actually measuring it.
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post #28 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 05:09 PM
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Im' just saying that because Ernesto and Jack have experience on the topic it doesn't make any point you/they made more or less relevant.
Which is kinda how I interpreted your last post.
Two guys can give their independent experiences on the same topic and have experienced two different outcomes or viewpoints from the outcome.
We see it all the time, polar opposite advice.

IMO, all 3 of you make valid points, and I just happen to agree that your point about 'some' being better than 'none' is valid and the right approach for some of us on here.

My personal mindset against doing it [email protected]$$ is the usual, "if you don't don't it right, don't do it at all" approach.
Sometimes though, people think "Good enough for the girls I date" and just do it half-ast.

There is nothing to see here ...
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post #29 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrunkFunk
However getting the rod parallel to the arm on a lowered fox is conterproductive ... the arm set parallel to the ground though is moving in the right direction towards minimization.
Jack, I am going to be installing the kit this weekend, and then I'll have to drive it 65 miles to a shop called custom alignment (they also carry MM parts) in Mountain View, CA. For the time being, prior to making it over to the shop, should I make the tie rod closer to parallel with the a-arm or parallel to the ground. In your experience, with your average lowered foxbody with sn95 spindles and stock K-member, when you dial in the bump steer correctly... what is the rod closer to?

I was going to try the laser on the stud method, but then realized I have no good way of verifying that the frame of the car is level. Pointless for me to try it...

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post #30 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrunkFunk
the arm set parallel to the ground though is moving in the right direction towards minimization.
Trunk, If you have a lowered car with stock suspension components, your a-arms will likely be pointing upward, I know mine do. With this condition, if you bring the tie rod close to parallel with the ground, what happens:

Imagine 1 inch of suspension compression for instance. That is going to cause the A-arm to make an even more significant upward angle with respect to ground, resulting in the wheel being pulled inward toward the axis of the car. Now, since the tie rod is longer, and has a mounting point closer to the centerline of the car, a 1 inch compression will make a smaller angle with reference to ground compared to the A-arm. So what happens? The compression results in the a-arm pulling the wheel in more than the tie rod... Toe out condition.

I think for starters, getting the tie rods somewhere between where it is now and parallel to the ground could be a good start before I take it to a professional, lol. I'll think I'll start with parallel to the A-arm until I can get over to Custom Alignment.

What is a reasonable price to pay for getting ur bump steer dialed in? Anyone have a ballpark?

Stangless

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post #31 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 12:28 AM
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Luke,

What year SN-95 spindles are on the car? Which bumpsteer kit did you purchase, an MMTR-1 or an MMTR-2?

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post #32 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 02:36 AM
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Jack I am using the 94-95 spindles with the curved tie rod end arm so my tie rods make a significant angle with respect to ground.

I bought the MMTR-2.

The car is pretty low sitting just 25.0" off the floor in the front (to the top of the fender arch). Thats with a 255/40/17 at 32psi if that helps.

Any thoughts?

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post #33 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 03:00 AM
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Luke,

Just put the tie rod directly against the shoulder on the stud that goes in the steering arm without any spacers. Your combination of parts actually needs the tie rod slightly higher than this, but it isn't physically possible to do that.

Ride height has very little affect on bumpsteer. The only reason it affects bumpsteer is that it changes the amount of caster the car has. With the car lower, caster increases. This changes the degree of parallelism between the control arm and tie rod.

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post #34 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley
Luke,

Just put the tie rod directly against the shoulder on the stud that goes in the steering arm without any spacers. Your combination of parts actually needs the tie rod slightly higher than this, but it isn't physically possible to do that.

Ride height has very little affect on bumpsteer. The only reason it affects bumpsteer is that it changes the amount of caster the car has. With the car lower, caster increases. This changes the degree of parallelism between the control arm and tie rod.
Jack, are you sure you aren't thinking of the 96-98 spindles?
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post #35 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFE
Jack, are you sure you aren't thinking of the 96-98 spindles?
Ditto.

Jack isn't the whole point to drop the tie rod ends to prevent them from making such a significant angle upward with respect to ground?

The 96+ spindles automatically put the tie rod lower because they have a straight tie rod arm compared to the 94-95 spindles which have the curved arm that causes the steeper tie rod angle.

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