Holy crap, MM panhard bar is in. - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 09-30-2005, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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Holy crap, MM panhard bar is in.

Wow.






Wow.

Haha, I am shocked. This thing is by far the best suspension piece I have added.

It works great with the modified GMS arms, and even was able to put my rear swaybar back in without having to drill anything (which is great, because after installing this, I am tired/done with drilling anything forever).

I'll post up some pics, but its amazing how the car no longer pushes to the outside of the turn, just wants to go where you point it, unless you defeat the tire's hold on the ground.

Needless to say, the 45 minutes off onramp and offramp driving was a blast. I need more front grip, and rebuild the rear diff, however I have all the parts for it all, and I just can't wait!

One thing I must say, I can't believe I *still* don't have subframe connectors.


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post #2 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
Wow.






Wow.

Haha, I am shocked. This thing is by far the best suspension piece I have added.

It works great with the modified GMS arms, and even was able to put my rear swaybar back in without having to drill anything (which is great, because after installing this, I am tired/done with drilling anything forever).

I'll post up some pics, but its amazing how the car no longer pushes to the outside of the turn, just wants to go where you point it, unless you defeat the tire's hold on the ground.

Needless to say, the 45 minutes off onramp and offramp driving was a blast. I need more front grip, and rebuild the rear diff, however I have all the parts for it all, and I just can't wait!

One thing I must say, I can't believe I *still* don't have subframe connectors.
R U running a torque arm too?


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post #3 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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not yet. Stock uppers right now.

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post #4 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 02:59 PM
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As far as handling is concearned, besides a good set of springs/shocks and an aggressive front end alignment, adding a panhard to these Mustangs IS the best bang-for-the-buck suspension upgrade you can make, period.
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post #5 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue88Notch
As far as handling is concearned, besides a good set of springs/shocks and an aggressive front end alignment, adding a panhard to these Mustangs IS the best bang-for-the-buck suspension upgrade you can make, period.
I've heard it said that you shouldn't introduce a PHB until you're ready to add a TQ-arm as well. 'Snap oversteer' is the usual reason given. Is that misleading information?

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post #6 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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haha, sounds about right. It takes some getting used to, that's for sure.

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post #7 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksnake305
I've heard it said that you shouldn't introduce a PHB until you're ready to add a TQ-arm as well. 'Snap oversteer' is the usual reason given. Is that misleading information?
That's totally untrue. Adding a PHB actually reduces the Mustang's tendency to snap oversteer. The PHB takes a lot of the bind out of the control arms bushings by limiting the side-to-side movement of the rear axle. This also virtually eliminates rear roll steer and makes the rear end of the car much more predictable, especially near the limits of tire adhesion. Installing a PHB along with a set of Bilsteins, H&R Race springs and X-2 ball joints will literally tansform the handling of a Mustang.
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post #8 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
That's totally untrue. Adding a PHB actually reduces the Mustang's tendency to snap oversteer. The PHB takes a lot of the bind out of the control arms bushings by limiting the side-to-side movement of the rear axle. This also virtually eliminates rear roll steer and makes the rear end of the car much more predictable, especially near the limits of tire adhesion. Installing a PHB along with a set of Bilsteins, H&R Race springs and X-2 ball joints will literally tansform the handling of a Mustang.

That's the setup I will be running, I'm going to x2's, HR race (from Oktavius), and delrin front LCA bushings.

The "snap oversteer" I am described really I think has more to do with my Tlok being worn out, and I have a whole new rear end unit going in anyways. I notice the new "oversteer" when applying power, and its jittery, which made it feel a lot like the snap oversteer I had before, although I do think I am getting some bind somewhere, probably my uppers?

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post #9 of 56 Old 10-02-2005, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
That's totally untrue. Adding a PHB actually reduces the Mustang's tendency to snap oversteer. The PHB takes a lot of the bind out of the control arms bushings by limiting the side-to-side movement of the rear axle. This also virtually eliminates rear roll steer and makes the rear end of the car much more predictable, especially near the limits of tire adhesion. Installing a PHB along with a set of Bilsteins, H&R Race springs and X-2 ball joints will literally tansform the handling of a Mustang.
Well that's good to know. Currently I'm running the following:

Tokico D-spec shocks/struts (just purchased)
Eibach progressives
Pro-3i LCA w/ 3 piece delrin & urethane bushings
stock UCA w/ reinforced bracket welded in to box them off
Eibach anti-roll kit
poly bushings most everywhere
Max Motorsports subframes

I hope with the addition of a PHB, the rear will still be linear & predictable...

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post #10 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 08:03 AM
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Chris, did you do the PHB install solo?

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post #11 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksnake305
I hope with the addition of a PHB, the rear will still be linear & predictable...
The stock style 4-link is nowhere near linear, nor is it predictable. Installing a PHB will add those attributes.
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post #12 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by huesmann
Chris, did you do the PHB install solo?
That I did. Its possible to do yourself with a couple 4" clamps and if you lift the bar into place from the passenger side. Measuring and marking definately takes 2 people, unless you like moving from one side of the car to the other a lot. I got a neighbor to help with it.

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post #13 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
Wow.



Wow.

Haha, I am shocked. This thing is by far the best suspension piece I have added.
How high is the PHB mounted? I've read where the Roll Center established by the upper arms and the PHB compete which leads to bind. However, I would GUESS that the bind would be more linear and actually show up as increased roll stiffness (as opposed to nonliear snap-oversteer). Can you tell if there has been an increase in roll stiffness? It would be interesting to know how the upper arm bushings wear with relation to how high or low the bar is from the ground. Any experience out there?

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post #14 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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the actual bar pivot points are almost half an inch to a full inch lower than the shock mounts, and about the length = to that of the distance from the outer edges of the shock mounts.

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post #15 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 08:21 PM
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PHB

Just took my 1990 GT Vert out to Buttonwillow for the first time after installing H&R springs, Tokico shocks, MM PHB, MM Strut Tower Brace, MM full subframe connectors and Sway Bar polly bushings/end links. This car corners well, just need to get my Baumann shift kit in and my 3.73 gears.
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post #16 of 56 Old 10-03-2005, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksnake305
Well that's good to know. Currently I'm running the following:

Tokico D-spec shocks/struts (just purchased)
Eibach progressives
Pro-3i LCA w/ 3 piece delrin & urethane bushings
stock UCA w/ reinforced bracket welded in to box them off
Eibach anti-roll kit
poly bushings most everywhere
Max Motorsports subframes

I hope with the addition of a PHB, the rear will still be linear & predictable...
Do you have polys in the upper control arms?

I wonder how a panhard bar will be with your lower control arm bushings. With the Delrin and poly I would think there wouldnt be much lateral compliance. A panhard dictates lateral motion of the rear end. The rear end still has lateral movement though as the panhard moves across this arc. I would think that the bushing setup in your lowers would hinder this lateral arc. But then again, the arc really isnt that much. Just something to think about. The biggest difference would be if you had poly bushings in the uppers though.

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post #17 of 56 Old 10-04-2005, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
That I did. Its possible to do yourself with a couple 4" clamps and if you lift the bar into place from the passenger side. Measuring and marking definately takes 2 people, unless you like moving from one side of the car to the other a lot. I got a neighbor to help with it.
Yeah, I tried test-fitting mine and it was a bit of a chore getting it up there on the rails. Plus there's some little screw-in bracket holding a fuel line or brake line or something at the top of the rail that's preventing it from fitting fully--I guess I just gotta relocate the bracket. Someday this fall I hope to get the time to put it in. I figure if I need to I can always use floor jacks to hold the ends of the thing up while I do the markings/measurements.
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post #18 of 56 Old 10-04-2005, 07:53 PM
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Were are the pics? I looking to do this install myself soon. How long did it take you?

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post #19 of 56 Old 10-04-2005, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oktavius
Do you have polys in the upper control arms?

I wonder how a panhard bar will be with your lower control arm bushings. With the Delrin and poly I would think there wouldnt be much lateral compliance. A panhard dictates lateral motion of the rear end. The rear end still has lateral movement though as the panhard moves across this arc. I would think that the bushing setup in your lowers would hinder this lateral arc. But then again, the arc really isnt that much. Just something to think about. The biggest difference would be if you had poly bushings in the uppers though.
nope they are stock uppers. no poly.
As for the lowers. the delrin is a third-middle bushing shaped like a ball. the outer softer poly bushings fit into the delrin-ball. the delrin stops the fore/aft movement and also protect against snaping the polies, while the polies provide a modest amount of lateral movement & flex. (at least that's how i'm guessing it worx...)

PS: on the PHB: it seems as if you dont get it installed JUST RIGHT, your introducing issues and could affect your stang for the worse. Are there any good E-instructions out in internet-land?

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post #20 of 56 Old 10-04-2005, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
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the measurements are mainly to minimize the arc of the panhard bar.

If you're somewhat off (not much), you basically just lose some clearance somewhere, and the arc of the movement is increased.

None the less, I'm pretty sure I nailed it after all was mounted up, just saying it isn't as scary as MM's detailed info makes it look.

I'll get some pics, took about 5 hours.

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post #21 of 56 Old 10-05-2005, 12:38 AM
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post #22 of 56 Old 10-05-2005, 12:40 AM
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pro3I's arent DELRIN bushings.

they have 3 piece poly on one or both sides and SPHERICAL bearing on the other. Theres a big diference If I understand it correctly

If delrins (not what the pro3i's have) Which I think are similar to the global west DEL A LUM Then they DO NOT WORK with Panhard bars.

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post #23 of 56 Old 10-05-2005, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksnake305
Are there any good E-instructions out in internet-land?
Check out the MM site. They have the instructions on there and as always, they are very well written and detailed. The only thing I would suggest is get a couple sets of drill bits and be sure to lube the bits when your drilling through the frame rail. I did the install by myself. I used C-clamps to hold the chassis mount in place while measuring and marking the holes. Other than that, it is exactly as the instructions say.

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post #24 of 56 Old 10-06-2005, 10:57 PM
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Cant it be welded in instead, Which may actually be easier than drillin all the holes?

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post #25 of 56 Old 10-06-2005, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan94GT
Cant it be welded in instead, Which may actually be easier than drillin all the holes?
It can be , but I don't recommend it. The U mounts at top are wider than the framerails they connect to. Besides, you couldn't remove it if you needed to change exhausts or any other reason.

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post #26 of 56 Old 10-07-2005, 07:59 AM
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I believe Maximum actually says that it can be welded in, but they say that it should be bolted in first. Basically, the bolts are strong enough, but if you want you can add some welds for a little extra strength.
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post #27 of 56 Old 10-10-2005, 12:19 AM
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Drilling vs. Welding

Definitely needs to be drilled to insert the braces to keep the factory frame rails from crushing under the lateral load and make the rail and PHB act as a solid unit. With what iv'e seen during welding my subs last weekend, and installing my PHB this weekend, if you weld in the PHB you are asking for trouble with heat and cracking in the thin/old ford sheetmetal. I am just going to quick tack a couple of places for insurance but IMHO the bolt in when it is all snugged up is way way solid.
You are right about the drilling though...It sucked. Especially the last four 3/8 holes through the inner bracket steel that is like .190 thick and no way to pilot up through the sizes of bits....man what a beech!
Sucks for me...My motor is out and K is out so no driving until all that crud is back in and done...

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post #28 of 56 Old 10-16-2005, 10:14 PM
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you guys have made me a believer, im adding a MM PHB to my list of things to do before i start autoxing/road course racing. during daily driving, does it make the ride any harsher?

im also saving up for a set of bilsteins all the way around. is there a cheaper shock that is comparable or are they basically "the" shock to have.

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post #29 of 56 Old 10-16-2005, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikewiz
you guys have made me a believer, im adding a MM PHB to my list of things to do before i start autoxing/road course racing. during daily driving, does it make the ride any harsher?
You won't even notice it's there until you start making hard turns.
Quote:
im also saving up for a set of bilsteins all the way around. is there a cheaper shock that is comparable or are they basically "the" shock to have.
There are cheaper shocks, but none comparable. MM now carries the Bilsteins in three different custom valvings to suit whatever spring rate you decide to run. If it were my money I would spend it with them yo be assured of getting the right setup.
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post #30 of 56 Old 10-16-2005, 11:20 PM
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well since im running the FMS "C" springs, I will see what ford motorsports offers to match up, if not i will go with MM

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post #31 of 56 Old 10-17-2005, 12:50 AM Thread Starter
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Bilstein HD's are a perfect match to the C's, a bit soft feeling setup, so now I am going to HR race.

If you go ford, might as well get the mach1 tokico's, or at least the 03 cobra bilstein front struts

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post #32 of 56 Old 10-17-2005, 10:52 AM
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The 03 Cobra stuts work very well with H&R Race springs or with coil overs if the spring rate isn't over about 300-350#. I would not recommend the Mach 1 stuff with higher rate springs. If you go Mach 1 use the Mach 1 springs and sway bars. Stock and near stock dampers have too much compression and insufficient rebound for high rate springs. This causes a harsh ride and excessive bouncing during rebound.

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post #33 of 56 Old 10-17-2005, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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yeah, for the HR setup, all bilstein dampers on my setup.

When I first had the C's, on ford dampers, then mach1 tokico's, it was kinda stiff feeling, now on the bilsteins, it feels pretty soft.

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post #34 of 56 Old 10-17-2005, 08:26 PM
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i thought i read that bilstein have a lifetime warranty, is this true?

if i buy ford racing cobra shocks/struts that are made by bilstein, would they have a lifetime warranty as well?

back on topic about the panhard bar, i run a MAC 8.8" girdle (diff cover). Will that get in the way of the panhard bar?

thanks

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post #35 of 56 Old 10-23-2005, 11:06 PM
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Back from the dead!

I have the SVO diff cover/girdle and the MM pan hard bar actually clears the cover, but it hits the allen screws that you tighten down onto the bearing caps. It hits ever so slightly but none the less, it hits. I ended up grinding down these screws to make it clear but it wound up making the hex area too shallow to tighten sufficiently. LOL, oh well?

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