Can 1995 gt with griggs/mm suspension compete with a bmw M3? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 Old 09-07-2005, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Can 1995 gt with griggs/mm suspension compete with a bmw M3?

Seems like a lot of people would prefer a bmw M3 than an all suit-up sn95... for autocrossing.

MM adj lca
MM phb
MM torque arm
MM c/c
MM sfc
TOkico 5 way adjustable all around
Griggs k-member
Griggs a-arms
Frontcoilover/rear H&R racing springs
BBK strut tower
Fat wheels
R331 low compr motor 185afr heads
all drivetrain done
a lot of weight taken off

So can my car keep up with a Bmw M3, assuming both have similar drivers?

Also,
Is bilstien shock/struts better than tokico 5 way adj.?


Last edited by Rebels; 09-07-2005 at 06:54 PM.
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post #2 of 10 Old 09-07-2005, 07:47 PM
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Well more than likely, yes, but the M3 would have a hell of a lot more civility than a full-tilt Mustang. FWIW here is a LINK to the results where I beat a national caliber driver in his M3 at a local event. Mind you, he was on Falken Azenis and not full race rubber at the time. Had he been on Hoosiers he would have smoked me. I can usually beat the local drivers in Z06's as well. It did take a good bit of fine tuning to get the car handling good enough to compete on this level.

As for the Tokicos, they aren't in the same league as Bilsteins, especially custom valved ones. Tokicos do make a very good street car shock for stock or near stock spring rates, but they aren't up for any serious usage. I use the Koni DA's on mine and they are a step above the Bilsteins once you learn how to adjust them.

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post #3 of 10 Old 09-08-2005, 03:25 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks glenn. Thats good news to me.


For shocks/struts, i guess i'm going with koni DAs. Thanks again.
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post #4 of 10 Old 09-08-2005, 08:57 AM
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Well prepared BMW with similar drivers? It'd be tough.
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post #5 of 10 Old 09-08-2005, 01:32 PM
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The newer M3s are heavy and not as great as you think... The older ones (95-99) are great handling cars

Glen, in short, what do you have done to your car?

96 Cobra
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post #6 of 10 Old 09-08-2005, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev Happy
The newer M3s are heavy and not as great as you think... The older ones (95-99) are great handling cars

Glen, in short, what do you have done to your car?
It's more like what haven't I done. It's a mildly tuned stock block 302 from my 88 LX coupe with 320 RWHP, 324 RWTQ. Power gets to the ground by way of a TKO-600, FMS aluminum driveshaft and FMS 3.73 gears. I run the complete MM front suspension setup with Koni DA's, 95 Cobra ASB and 425# Hypercoils. Rear is MM TA/PHB with the aluminum road race lower arms, adjustable ASB and 225# Hypercoils on the Koni DA's. I removed the Mach 460 stereo system, AC and air pump, have a rear seat eliminator kit and Corbeau Forza front seats. I use a Kirk Racing Products roll bar with Pyrotech 5 point harnesses. I upgraded to Cobra brakes front and rear and run 17x10.5" CCW 3 piece alloy track wheels with Kumho Ecsta V-710 DOT racing tires. It weighs ~3250# without me in it and it's tagged and insured so it's perfectly street legal. I don't drive it on the street much because it isn't a joy to drive unless your really hauling ass.
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post #7 of 10 Old 09-08-2005, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
It's more like what haven't I done. It's a mildly tuned stock block 302 from my 88 LX coupe with 320 RWHP, 324 RWTQ. Power gets to the ground by way of a TKO-600, FMS aluminum driveshaft and FMS 3.73 gears. I run the complete MM front suspension setup with Koni DA's, 95 Cobra ASB and 425# Hypercoils. Rear is MM TA/PHB with the aluminum road race lower arms, adjustable ASB and 225# Hypercoils on the Koni DA's. I removed the Mach 460 stereo system, AC and air pump, have a rear seat eliminator kit and Corbeau Forza front seats. I use a Kirk Racing Products roll bar with Pyrotech 5 point harnesses. I upgraded to Cobra brakes front and rear and run 17x10.5" CCW 3 piece alloy track wheels with Kumho Ecsta V-710 DOT racing tires. It weighs ~3250# without me in it and it's tagged and insured so it's perfectly street legal. I don't drive it on the street much because it isn't a joy to drive unless your really hauling ass.
My setup is somewhat similar on my Cobra... Full tubular MM front end w/ #350lb springs and 03 Cobra Bilsteins... H&R supersports in the rear, Bilstein shocks, MM adjustable control arms and panhard bar... I have not tracked the car yet w/ the MM front end but looking forward to in the future along w/ adding a MM torque arm and H&R TA springs/upgraded Bilsteins...

Quote:
Seems like a lot of people would prefer a bmw M3 than an all suit-up sn95... for autocrossing.

MM adj lca
MM phb
MM torque arm
MM c/c
MM sfc
TOkico 5 way adjustable all around
Griggs k-member
Griggs a-arms
Frontcoilover/rear H&R racing springs
BBK strut tower
Fat wheels
R331 low compr motor 185afr heads
all drivetrain done
a lot of weight taken off

So can my car keep up with a Bmw M3, assuming both have similar drivers?
A couple months ago I had an older guy in a Z06 who felt he had to prove something and followed me quickly up an onramp that had a nice bend where it then merged to the highway... Granted I was trying to stay planted in my seat throughout most of the turn (still running stock cobra seats) but I was pushing the car...and he was right on my ass... With Mustangs, you really have to drive them if you want them to handle....which can be a good thing as you will probably be one of the best drivers out there because of that...

96 Cobra

Last edited by Rev Happy; 09-08-2005 at 11:05 PM.
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post #8 of 10 Old 09-09-2005, 08:57 AM
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I guess 320 RWHP is mildly tuned compared to those guys running 500 HP, but compared to us guys with stock motors...
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post #9 of 10 Old 09-09-2005, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huesmann
I guess 320 RWHP is mildly tuned compared to those guys running 500 HP, but compared to us guys with stock motors...
Yeah, exactly, at the national level I would have to run against cars with big HP numbers and less weight. My combo is truly very mild in that I have Edelbrock Performer heads a Crower hydraulic roller and an RPM intake all on a stock very high mileage lower end. The power spread is from 2500 to 6000+ RPM with 300# of torque from about 3100 to 5600 RPM. I do have the car tuned fairly well with the help of my TwEECer and a few runs on the dyno. In limited traction conditions the mild tuning makes the car easy to drive.
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post #10 of 10 Old 09-24-2005, 06:21 PM
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my girlfriend and i both like to spend time out on the track.. she has a 97 318ti(hatchback) that was bought from a performance driving school. it's really low, and has a full coilover setup, bilsteins, slotted rotors, upgraded calipers, race fluids, pads, a bolt in roll bar, clutch, short shifter, and 17inch m3 wheels with 225s in front and 245 falkens in the rear, great tires btw.
engine is just a 4banger with a header, cold air and a full exhaust.

in the associations we have raced with they have 4 classes, starting at novice, that you have to move up through before you can be certified as a good enough driver where you can be signed off to race by yourself and not with an instructor in the car.. she's been doing it long enough that she no longer needs an instructor.
she got me into it this year and i went out looking for a bmw to race with her.. well a deal fell through for a race spec street 328, and on the way home i happened upon a carbed 83, '86roller-302, t-speed car with an 8.8, 3.55s posi yada yada for 2500 and i bought it. this is a hatchback, T-TOP car.

I put in stock cut springs from a sn95v6, stock shocks and swap bars, and with the stock long block, a b cam, performer intake and holley 600, full exhaust, home made SFC's, and the STOCK 83 brakes with autozone lifetime warranty cheapo pads i was able to take the car out there my very first time, as a novice with an instructor and turn lap times about a second slower than her at Loudon International Speedway(they have a road course too).
the mustang was not putting distance in the corners with any of the cars out there really(mainly because i had to brake MUCH sooner in order for the brakes to slow me down enough), howevere i was hardly passed. there were parts when i could just let off enough to take the corner well enough to set myself up for a small or big staight and was leaving STI's, carreras, and pleanty of BMWs in the dust(i'm not kidding, EVERYONE was astonished).
when the max mph in the main, and second straights for most cars was 105-110, and 85-90, i was hitting just under 120 in the main and just over 100in the back. don't know what it was but i was overtaking cars in groups in the straights, not just one.

now don't mistake me, the car handled ver well on the 16inch pony wheels with 225potenzas and 245 dunlops, very well, but it really isn't even dusting the surface of what can be done to make the car handle better.



since then i have added a 6pt roll bar, jacking rails connected to the SFCs, a new clutch, short shifter, brakes/spindles/calipers from an 89v8 w/ss piston upgrades, 1 1/4" fron swaybar, and a brand new 350+hp 302.
i plan on new springs and shocks before the next day out and i can't wait to see how much better the car is out there..

believe it or not the biggest thing is brakes... the longer you can stay on the throttle comming into a corner and the faster you can brake the more of an advantage you can have on other cars.. a well built smallblock can very much outpower any bmw in a striaght, you can make up HUGE distances on those cars in a decent straightaway, it's in the corners that you need to make sure you're ready to keep them behind you.
i've found that means the following:

-great brakes
-a good suspension
-good tires
-and practice, practice, practice on driving YOUR car to the best of IT'S ability.

that doesn't mean drifting around corners and ripping the tires loose coming out of corners.. i actually gained more when i stayed in third during the sharpest turn(180), slowest(100+ down to 20mph) and up a HILL turns than if i downshifted into 2nd. i could just get on it and get up that hill with minimal tirespin compared to blips of the throttle in 2nd all the way up.

it absolutely, positively can be done.. just watch some of the SCCA races that feature some of the fastest M cars driving by TURNER MOTORSPORTS (just up the road from me here in New England).. if you look closely you will find that the finishes typically look something like this...

1st-stang
2nd-stang
3rd-M
4th-stang
etc

granted these are 05stangs but prior to that it was still the same.. my girl hates it when we watch the events because her pride and pretty M cars always go down to the fords..personally i love it!

just get out there and learn to maximize what you have and you'll then be in a position to asses what it is you need further to make the car quicker.
enjoy and have fun.
matt

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