Increasing front grip on a budget - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 06:34 AM Thread Starter
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Increasing front grip on a budget

What would/could be the most effective way of increasing the front grip? Rear is where I want it, or can handle, but would like just shade more grip in front. I've played with tire pressures enought to understand I'm not going to make it happen there.

Would a bumpsteer kit and/or some Koni/Bilstein's be a good route(fronts only)?

Are front control arms even worth bringing into the equation?

Also, would a coilover on the front only be of any great benefit?

Thanks......didn't wanna call Maximum and harass them over the phone with questions.

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post #2 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 08:36 AM
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I came across a post by Dave Schotz over at corner carvers a while back. Basically he was getting a set of CCW wheels made with two wheels at the wider end of the Stock class offset allowance and two at the narrower end of the allowance. This would enable him to widen the front track by a 1/2 inch and narrow the rear track by a 1/2 inch thus increasing his front grip. Now this is probably a minute difference buy with a couple other small changes could collectively make a large difference. Now I am not saying to go out and get CCW wheels but maybe experiment with track width with (good) wheel spacers. I am not claiming to be an expert by any means, I am just clueing you in on what I have recently read to give you an option for one of the possible directions.


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post #3 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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Thats cool......I use small spacers on the front and rear of the car. I'd rather not try to "take away" grip from the rear, just to make the car dig in harder, but would rather upgrade the mostly stock front end to keep up with the rear. All I have up front are springs and c/c plates.
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post #4 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 09:30 AM
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More neg. camber and a little toe-out for track events, a little wider track if it will fit, struts tuned to your springs, and poly LCA bushings would probably help.

I mainly meant with my post above to widen your front track and not narrow your rear track since you don't have to work within the rules for F Stock I ASSume.

I came onto another thread at CC that basically said not to buy the 03 Cobra LCA's but rather upgrade bushings for your current ones.

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post #5 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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I've got a maxed out camber of -2.1, and maxed out caster at +5.8. The springs are Pro-Kit's, and the struts are stock.

I may do the bushing thing, that seems fairly cheap, and makes sense to use.
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post #6 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 10:01 AM
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Buy a pyrometer - $100.00.

Put in some time on a skidpad - priceless.

You can then optimize front grip by optimizing tire pressure, camber and toe in a couple of hours with hand tools and some patience.

FWIW, I've tried the spacer shuffle and didn't notice the difference. Not saying it doesn't help, just that the help is maybe too small if you hav a lot of understeer. I ended up with an adjustable rear stabar when I couldn't get rid of massive understeer any other way. Not legal is stock, and it does reduce rear grip a little, but getting the car nicely balanced was well worth it.

Speaking of Dave S., on his ESP car, he ran 275's in front and 265's in the rear when he won the Nationals.

Edit for punch-ee-a-shun.

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post #7 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmm, the rear swaybar.....maybe that is it. I had to remove the steeda adj. rear swaybar off my car when the MM panhard bar went on. I'll try to search around on some info on MM's version of the adjustable bar. Thanks.
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post #8 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 10:37 AM
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You need to get yourself some more negative camber somehow.
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post #9 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 10:50 AM
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What's the probability that your front struts are worn out? As per http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/springs_calcs.htm the rate of the Prokit is comparable to stock, but with the 1.5" drop is it possible that static neg. camber is decreased? Picture 9 in my sig. really highlights the fact that I am under dampened due to worn shocks/struts. Have you ruled out this possibility?

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post #10 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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The car has 32,000 miles, and I don't think the drop or rate of the Pro-Kit spring has had any premature wear on the strut. Is it possible to gain more negative camber with an MM C/C plate, than a Steeda 3-bolt?

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post #11 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 02:35 PM
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What kind of tires you using? You can put all the goodies in that you want, but until you got good tires, you gonna understeer. Kumo Victor Racer V700's work pretty good.

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post #12 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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275/40/17 Kumho V710's
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post #13 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edz
What kind of tires you using? You can put all the goodies in that you want, but until you got good tires, you gonna understeer. Kumo Victor Racer V700's work pretty good.
If the only thing you change is tires, then you haven't changed the actual balance of the car. (Well, unless you do some sort of staggered size thing, as mentioned already for Dave Schotz).

Try a softer sway bar up front. Seems to have helped on my car.

'89 GT convertible, N/A 357W, MM front susp w/425# coil-overs and Koni D/As, MM TA/PB rear setup (Koni Yellows, 390-430# springs), Stoptech 332mm / 12" Baers, MM 6 point rollbar, Maier 1.5" flared fenders & quarters, 18x9.5" front/18x10.5" rear Enkei RPF-1s (street), 18x10" CCW C-10s (track), etc...
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post #14 of 18 Old 07-14-2005, 11:12 PM
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If you are running stock struts I think adjustables are a must. Not exactly a budget fix but should be considered for any corner carving. I've been pretty happy with the Illuminas so far but they were still $500+ for front and rear. I find I need to run different settings for different surfaces to find the right balance.

Doing the front control arm bushings would most likely get you more negative camber. It did on mine but I made my own out of teflon. They are bored in the center though and only offset forward for more caster. I figure the lack of deflection from the harder bushing material is why I got more neg camber. I have actually gone back to my factory camber plates and the least I can get is -1/2 degree with them pulled all the way out towards the fender. I measure -3 with them pushed all the way in.

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post #15 of 18 Old 07-15-2005, 01:49 AM
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http://rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

This should give you a few more ideas...

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post #16 of 18 Old 07-15-2005, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2k2GT
What would/could be the most effective way of increasing the front grip? Rear is where I want it, or can handle, but would like just shade more grip in front. I've played with tire pressures enought to understand I'm not going to make it happen there.
Tony,
There are a few things I would do in your situation, however they aren't cheap. Coil-overs would be a vast improvement over the H&R SS springs, but a costly solution. Big advantage there is you can tune your ride height, lighten your unsprung weight and go with a better damper at the same time. I would not keep the stock struts or shocks, they arren't very good for performance. You really need to do something to improve both your static and dynamic camber. Can't swear to it, but I believe the MM C/C plates will give you more negative camber, I can get almost -3 from mine. Offset LCA bushings will increase caster which improves camber during turning.

The SS springs are too soft and too low. This causes excessive body roll from lowering your front RCH which in turn reduces tire contact. Increasing your front spring rate with a corresponding increase in rear rate will improve your front grip. A set of the H&R Race springs with a better set of dampers will work wonders on front grip by reducing roll and preventing camber loss. I really like the Bilsteins, I run them on my Cobra and they are a great match for the H&R Race springs. Another thing you can do with your front is install the Steeda X2 ball joints to raise your front RCH, they really work.

BTW, I think I saw your name on the registration list for Nashville. I'll be there with my wife/co-driver so maybe we can meet each other.
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post #17 of 18 Old 07-15-2005, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
BTW, I think I saw your name on the registration list for Nashville. I'll be there with my wife/co-driver so maybe we can meet each other.
Awesome!! I'm hoping to have a good showing there this year, trying to finish higher than the previous 42nd or 40-something RAW time from last time out.

I'm trying to sell some stock parts off the GT, so I'm hoping to use that unexpected income to pad my budget. I want to do something with the front, but I do not want to pigeon hole myself into some mods that could possibly become useless if I were to upgrade later down the road.

I was reeeeal close to going full fr/rr coilovers/MM Bilsteins on the car about 6 months ago, but went with the rear grip package instead.

Last I checked, the bushings and what not aren't really that expensive, I may just do those and try it out, and if I need extra I'll continue on. I would rather do one mod at a time to see how it all works, and adjust accordingly.

Look forward to seeing/meeting you in Nashville, it's a great site, usually heavily favoring the higher HP/big cars. Of course I did get stomped last time out there.

Gonna try and lodge at the Comfort Suite Hotel at one of the Lebanon exits, about 15min. from the track.

Last edited by 2k2GT; 07-15-2005 at 11:51 AM.
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post #18 of 18 Old 07-17-2005, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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Well, although still not 100% satisfied with front grip.........at our autox today, the front end seemed to be biting like it USED-TO(with the broken in V710's). Seems they just needed a really good scrubbing.

Results here: http://etrscca.org/soloii/results/20...onal_8_raw.htm
(I shoulda had the two drivers in that one CS Miata....shoulda had'em. Course was pretty tight with only one or two "mini" straights. )

I'm still gonna try and help the front end out a lil' bit, still not fully decided on one particular thing.
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