2.3 ecoboost in trackcar fox - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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2.3 ecoboost in trackcar fox

So gents, just put my built 306w in foxey tuesday night, I cant stop thinking about this motor is way too heavy for a weak 320hp (or whatever she makes) Yes AFR/TF 11R heads will being me to 375ish hp, FTI cam closer to 400hp but that iron block is still a boat anchor up front.

Iam dreaming (thinking) long term when and if this girl windsor breathes her last breath, now what?

Yes I thought Coyote, 4.6mod SOHC vs DOHC, I know we have so many options but these DOHC motors have a higher center of gravity, weight more, MASSIVE in size, more money, more sensors, expensive parts, aka snowball effect. Therefore i stayed pushrod 302, its something i know how to work on, its small can be much lighter with an aluminum block.

However i know we have all seen guy put the tiny 2.3L ecoboost motor in street driving foxes, anyone know of anyone with good results in an all out track car? My machinist said those little motors will not last with the abuse of what i am doing, but with my fox getting lighter and lighter, and im sure companies are making bullet proof rods/pistons/cranks/ etc etc couldnt i just build and prep a 2.3 for track use, keep boost at stock level for safety/cooling reasons and get the engine prepped. I mean that all aluminum motor has to be super light, plenty of tech, makes more/same hp as my built 306 does

Id would also be able to push that motor a huge amount back which would make this fox even more like a go kart.

thoughts?

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post #2 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 10:23 AM
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No info to provide, but i've always been curious to what an Ecoboost 2.0 or 2.3 would be like in a fox. Even something like the 2.7TT might be a fun project.


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post #3 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Im trying to find the most competitive power/engine package.

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post #4 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 04:47 PM
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Ford lists the "Packaged Weight" of a 2.3 crate motor at 584lbs.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-23T

The "Packaged Weight" of the Gen 2 Coyote is 549lbs. The 2.3 comes with starter and alternator, the Coyote does not. Ford lists the "engine weight" at 445lbs.

In real life, this guy listed the shipped weight of a 2.0EB (flexplate, no flywheel, no accessories, no fluid, no intercooler, plus pallet) was 419lbs. Now add a 30lb flywheel, 20lb pressure plate and friction disk, accessories, intercooler, associated piping, and a lightweight 75lb transmission (or +123lbs for a stock MT-82 from the EcoBoost Mustang) and you're easily over 500lbs installed and ready to run minus fluids.

My aluminum-headed 302 complete with accessories and T5 weighed 552lbs ready to run minus fluids.





It seems that most published engine weights out there leave out items critical to run - wiring, accessories, drivetrain, etc. - your LS3 doesn't actually weigh 390lbs if it takes another 220lbs of stuff for it to actually move a car.

The 5.0 is a decently lightweight engine given its power potential, and especially so if you stroke it. There are plenty of 500+hp recipes for a 347 out there.

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My machinist said those little motors will not last with the abuse of what i am doing
Does he actively work in development on those engines or is he familiar with those who have? Or is he making a guess based on engine displacement and power level?
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post #5 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscortSportage View Post
Id would also be able to push that motor a huge amount back which would make this fox even more like a go kart.

thoughts?
What's stopping the V8 at the firewall? Because an I4 and a V8 are both 4 cylinders long. Ford lists the 2.3's length as 25.9", the commonly accepted length of a 302 to the tip of the water pump pulley is 27.5", Explorer accessories would probably cancel that out. If you can't scoot the V8 back because it's hitting something, you probably can't scoot the 2.3 back either.

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post #6 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ford lists the "Packaged Weight" of a 2.3 crate motor at 584lbs.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-23T

The "Packaged Weight" of the Gen 2 Coyote is 549lbs. The 2.3 comes with starter and alternator, the Coyote does not. Ford lists the "engine weight" at 445lbs.

In real life, this guy listed the shipped weight of a 2.0EB (flexplate, no flywheel, no accessories, no fluid, no intercooler, plus pallet) was 419lbs. Now add a 30lb flywheel, 20lb pressure plate and friction disk, accessories, intercooler, associated piping, and a lightweight 75lb transmission (or +123lbs for a stock MT-82 from the EcoBoost Mustang) and you're easily over 500lbs installed and ready to run minus fluids.

My aluminum-headed 302 complete with accessories and T5 weighed 552lbs ready to run minus fluids.





It seems that most published engine weights out there leave out items critical to run - wiring, accessories, drivetrain, etc. - your LS3 doesn't actually weigh 390lbs if it takes another 220lbs of stuff for it to actually move a car.

The 5.0 is a decently lightweight engine given its power potential, and especially so if you stroke it. There are plenty of 500+hp recipes for a 347 out there.



Does he actively work in development on those engines or is he familiar with those who have? Or is he making a guess based on engine displacement and power level?
he works on everything

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post #7 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What's stopping the V8 at the firewall? Because an I4 and a V8 are both 4 cylinders long. Ford lists the 2.3's length as 25.9", the commonly accepted length of a 302 to the tip of the water pump pulley is 27.5", Explorer accessories would probably cancel that out. If you can't scoot the V8 back because it's hitting something, you probably can't scoot the 2.3 back either.
Ive set the motor back 1 inch thanks to the MM k
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post #8 of 53 Old 06-28-2018, 10:30 PM
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A fully dressed 01 dohc is 80 lbs lighter than a fully dressed 302 .
That is the aluminum block teksid .

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post #9 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 07:23 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ashleyroachclip View Post
A fully dressed 01 dohc is 80 lbs lighter than a fully dressed 302 .
That is the aluminum block teksid .
Lighter is one thing, those motors are so wide! I have a friend who has been trying to convince me to go to a 99-01 SOHC mod motor so hard.
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post #10 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 08:54 AM
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I hate to say it, but there won't be any substantial gain with any swap. The only swap i'd consider for a race car is something that can manage to be mounted farther back behind the K. But even still, a 302 with solid adjustable mounts can sit pretty far back.

All of the weights listed certainly reinforce the point, but the height/width of the DOHC motors make them difficult to benefit from. And while a 4 banger swap would be cool, the peripherals are just more weight that has to be hung forward of the K member.

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post #11 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 09:19 AM
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How deep are your pockets? Save about 30 pounds. An expensive 30 pound savings, but....

https://www.billmitchellproducts.com/aluminum-sbf/

I think you are worrying too much about the weight. Some weight you have to work around. Unless you can afford to spend around it.
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post #12 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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How deep are your pockets? Save about 30 pounds. An expensive 30 pound savings, but....

https://www.billmitchellproducts.com/aluminum-sbf/

I think you are worrying too much about the weight. Some weight you have to work around. Unless you can afford to spend around it.

only30lbs, I thought aluminum blocks were an easy 80lbs less fully dressed.

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post #13 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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I hate to say it, but there won't be any substantial gain with any swap. The only swap i'd consider for a race car is something that can manage to be mounted farther back behind the K. But even still, a 302 with solid adjustable mounts can sit pretty far back.

All of the weights listed certainly reinforce the point, but the height/width of the DOHC motors make them difficult to benefit from. And while a 4 banger swap would be cool, the peripherals are just more weight that has to be hung forward of the K member.
Its crazy because everytime i bring this conversation up, it comes back around to staying sbf pushrod. Like you say, I can punch her out to 331/347 if i ever need more cubes, or (my fav) i can build the valvetrain up even more and spin to 8k staying with my current 306 cubes. Ill have to figure out a way to cut/bend the firewall and push motor back. I should be at a 50/50 balance as we speak going from iron heads to aluminum.
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post #14 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 10:22 AM
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only30lbs, I thought aluminum blocks were an easy 80lbs less fully dressed.
Production 302 block (87-end of production) are right around 130 pounds bare. The linked aluminum block is 108 pounds. The rest of it offers other weight reduction opportunities, but it will get wicked expensive.

I don't think focusing only one lighter is the best way to look at your car. An all aluminum 4.6 DOHC (for example) may have a high center of gravity, but how much higher? You can tune the chassis to compensate. It may be lighter overall too depending on how you configure it.

Pound for pound and inch for inch of volume, it's hard to beat the output potential of the 8.2" 302 block.

You are also working with a chassis that is not known to be a great handler. It needs a ton of specialized work to be good.

You want 50/50 all the time or under throttle? I think 50/50 is an over emphasized "rule". Lots of fast cars are not 50/50.
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post #15 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 10:42 AM
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The center of gravity difference in a dohc over 302 is minimal at best .
Just because it is wider is not a factor either .
It can be installed in a fox , with all factory parts that are easy to acquire as well .
With an sn95 or new edge k member , you you gain front track width , which is an advantage .
Biggest disadvantage , I have personal experience with , torque range .
Pushrod engines have torque low in the rpm range , and the modular do not .
Stay with the 302 if this is what you need .

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post #16 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ashleyroachclip View Post
A fully dressed 01 dohc is 80 lbs lighter than a fully dressed 302.
That is the aluminum block teksid .
Got a source for that? I see tons of figures copy and pasted from everywhere around the internet based on marketing figures or engines in all states of undress, so I tend to believe pictures of complete engines on scales a lot more.

The sources I'm finding are putting 4.6 DOHC long blocks around 400-425lbs.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/7816325-post15.html

https://forums.corral.net/forums/16340026-post22.html

Add a pressure plate and a T45 and you're at 530-550 ready to run. +20lbs for a T56.

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Production 302 block (87-end of production) are right around 130 pounds bare. The linked aluminum block is 108 pounds. The rest of it offers other weight reduction opportunities, but it will get wicked expensive.

I don't think focusing only one lighter is the best way to look at your car. An all aluminum 4.6 DOHC (for example) may have a high center of gravity, but how much higher? You can tune the chassis to compensate. It may be lighter overall too depending on how you configure it.

Pound for pound and inch for inch of volume, it's hard to beat the output potential of the 8.2" 302 block.

You are also working with a chassis that is not known to be a great handler. It needs a ton of specialized work to be good.

You want 50/50 all the time or under throttle? I think 50/50 is an over emphasized "rule". Lots of fast cars are not 50/50.
I want more rear weight balance so under braking its 50/50 or close to it.

I have lots of chassis/suspension/brake work done already, im working on aero improvements and will bump up to a fully adjustable damper eventually.

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post #18 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ashleyroachclip View Post
The center of gravity difference in a dohc over 302 is minimal at best .
Just because it is wider is not a factor either .
It can be installed in a fox , with all factory parts that are easy to acquire as well .
With an sn95 or new edge k member , you you gain front track width , which is an advantage .
Biggest disadvantage , I have personal experience with , torque range .
Pushrod engines have torque low in the rpm range , and the modular do not .
Stay with the 302 if this is what you need .
Already on a MM k member, MM sn95 A arms, 96-04 spindles, 1/2 inch wheel spacers and +10 offset wheels, so shes 2.25 to 2.5 inches wider on each side up front. Eventually will use 1 inch wheels spacers all four again, the main thing i love about these pushrod motors is ease of access and work, which for a grassroots racer like me is something i need, when on a track on a hot summer day, i like that quick turn around if a mechanical problem does arise.

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post #19 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 12:21 PM
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The 2.3l EB engine as sold by Ford Performance comes with the alternator, starter and flywheel, so quite a bit of weight can be removed from the above numbers. I don't have an exact weight on my installation yet, but with starter, alternator, flywheel, oil, engine mounts and engine mount brackets, the engine appears to be around 346lbs. The stock flywheel is a dual mass unit, so it is super heavy. An aluminum model for non street driving would save at least 15lbs. The main issue is that the HP fuel pump is driven off of the back of the cylinder head by the camshaft. Unless you want to cut out a hole in the firewall, it severely limits how far rearwards the engine can be moved.

At stock boost level, this engine will be much more reliable and durable than any pushrod 302 with a non shaft mount rocker system.
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post #20 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
The 2.3l EB engine as sold by Ford Performance comes with the alternator, starter and flywheel, so quite a bit of weight can be removed from the above numbers. I don't have an exact weight on my installation yet, but with starter, alternator, flywheel, oil, engine mounts and engine mount brackets, the engine appears to be around 346lbs. The stock flywheel is a dual mass unit, so it is super heavy. An aluminum model for non street driving would save at least 15lbs. The main issue is that the HP fuel pump is driven off of the back of the cylinder head by the camshaft. Unless you want to cut out a hole in the firewall, it severely limits how far rearwards the engine can be moved.

At stock boost level, this engine will be much more reliable and durable than any pushrod 302 with a non shaft mount rocker system.
So light weight flywheel sounds like a must, and yea i can cut a hole in the firewall, i love cutting this car up, shes high 25xx lbs without me. I have a built, internally balanced 306 (hoping to get many years out of her) then decide on what power unit to move to. I will always love the sound of a N/A pushrod SBF but im very curious on this track car with a baby 2.3 EB setup.

AR Hartman is dominating in his new edge mustang powered by a 3.5 TT EB motor (and tons of carbon and aero) but...

speaking of rocker system, im using the 93 cobra crane 1.7 rockers, with trickflow hardened pushrods...

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post #21 of 53 Old 06-29-2018, 06:55 PM
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Better yet; buy a new or used, base Ecoboost Stang. They can be had fairly inexpensively in used form. I bought an '18 and I'm so tempted to sell my '95. These Ecoboost cars are a blast and especially with the 10 speed auto. I've seen the '18 base models selling for $20k locally. Guys are tracking them out of the box.

I know...it's easy for me to spend your money.

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Take all of the money you'd spend swapping that motor in and do a racing school, or go to the track. seat time> chasing the dragon

or listen to that friend of yours and put a 4.6 PI in for pennies. sell all your gauges to recoup some money. keep some liquids in it. drive at the rev limiter.
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post #23 of 53 Old 07-03-2018, 06:40 AM Thread Starter
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Take all of the money you'd spend swapping that motor in and do a racing school, or go to the track. seat time> chasing the dragon

or listen to that friend of yours and put a 4.6 PI in for pennies. sell all your gauges to recoup some money. keep some liquids in it. drive at the rev limiter.
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post #24 of 53 Old 07-03-2018, 09:13 AM
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Let us know how it does on the track!!
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Let us know how it does on the track!!
Dont think ill be able to make it to the track this year, but you can follow the progress on my IG account.

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post #26 of 53 Old 07-03-2018, 10:47 AM
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The 2.3l EB engine as sold by Ford Performance comes with the alternator, starter and flywheel, so quite a bit of weight can be removed from the above numbers. I don't have an exact weight on my installation yet, but with starter, alternator, flywheel, oil, engine mounts and engine mount brackets, the engine appears to be around 346lbs. The stock flywheel is a dual mass unit, so it is super heavy. An aluminum model for non street driving would save at least 15lbs. The main issue is that the HP fuel pump is driven off of the back of the cylinder head by the camshaft. Unless you want to cut out a hole in the firewall, it severely limits how far rearwards the engine can be moved.

At stock boost level, this engine will be much more reliable and durable than any pushrod 302 with a non shaft mount rocker system.
Jack, do you have a construction thread anywhere of this car? I'd like to read/see details about this build! Sounds like it should be wicked quick.


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post #27 of 53 Old 07-03-2018, 11:50 AM
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Jay,

No, but there will be a series of articles in MM&FF on the swap when it is completed.

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post #28 of 53 Old 07-18-2018, 03:35 PM
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Make sure you drive one first. Before doing the swap. I've driven the ecoboost style engine in most of the available platforms and I can't stand their lack luster performance past 5000rpm. They make fantastic torque and spool quickly but hate to rev. It drives me nuts personally.

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post #29 of 53 Old 07-18-2018, 05:12 PM
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They make fantastic torque and spool quickly but hate to rev.
Sounds like a stock 302.

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post #30 of 53 Old 07-19-2018, 12:37 PM
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Make sure you drive one first. Before doing the swap. I've driven the ecoboost style engine in most of the available platforms and I can't stand their lack luster performance past 5000rpm. They make fantastic torque and spool quickly but hate to rev. It drives me nuts personally.
I daily a Focus ST on e50 and I completely agree, past 5k it falls on its face. Here's a dyno graph of a similar setup to me: Stratified tune, CAI, 3" downpipe, larger intercooler, colder spark plugs, e30 etc.
http://www.stratifiedauto.com/images...E30%20Dyno.jpg

It's a whole lot of fun for street driving, but you gotta get a bigger turbo if you want some power up high.
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post #31 of 53 Old 07-24-2018, 01:01 PM
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What's the goal? More HP because you think you need it? If you had it, could you use it? Often times you can't put it to the ground anyway.

I race a W2W class at 260 rwhp......and pass guys with alot more power. FWIW: At VIR I run a 2:09, American Iron runs 120 more HP, bigger tires, bigger brakes, cambered rear ends and run 5 seconds faster than I do. A couple of those guys have $100K in their cars and I'm running a 96 MOD motor car with factory K-member, A-arms, tranny and rear. They are actually impressed with ME because of the junk I'm using!!!

If you really want some info on an ecoboost car look up AJ Hartman running NASA American Iron the the northeast. He's using a 6cyl ecoboost running that class. Seems to hold together well but I don't really follow him.
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If racing is like sex.....why would you want it to only last 10 seconds. (road races last 25 to 45 minutes!)
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post #32 of 53 Old 07-24-2018, 03:11 PM
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If you really want some info on an ecoboost car look up AJ Hartman running NASA American Iron the the northeast.
Wrong Ecoboost, but a badass car nonetheless. He did post weights for the 3.5TT - 426lbs with no wiring harness, clutch/flywheel, or power steering (I think). Add 130lbs for an MT82, 50 lbs for a clutch/flywheel, 15lbs for a wiring harness, and you're about 620lbs installed, really really close to an LS1/T56 combo. Tuned up the 3.5 can make an easy 400+hp and 500+ft-lb, so the weight is worth it. You'll never get 500ft-lb out of an NA stock displacement small block unless you start dipping into the really pricey race parts.

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post #33 of 53 Old 07-25-2018, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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Size and weight are my goals,


what are your thoughts on the 5.2 voodoo flat plane crank coyote motor?

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post #34 of 53 Old 07-25-2018, 12:23 PM
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Unless you find a wrecked GT350, there is no source for that engine.

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post #35 of 53 Old 07-25-2018, 02:58 PM
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Unless you find a wrecked GT350, there is no source for that engine.
car-part has one for the low low price of "$call", or you could just build your own. After paying $2700 for the block, you can buy the heads for $1900 each, the cams for $1300, the crank for $1000, then all that's left is literally everything.
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