How competitive can a Foxbody really be with the new cars? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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How competitive can a Foxbody really be with the new cars?

I have thought about this a lot lately. In light of the ZL1, GT350R and the M2 and all, can it really compete if setup with the best aftermarket equipment on the market? How good could it be?

Just curious is all. Lets say you take the best from Griggs and install the GR40 equipment on it, or the best from MM and do the same, how close could it run with the new cars these days?

Same horsepower in all vehicles, and the same suspension components that come on the ZL1, GT350R and M2. Your year Fox with the GR40 setup from Griggs or the Maximum Motorsports Road and Track box or any other kit they make. What do you honestly think it could do? Can it be made as good or better?

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post #2 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 12:31 PM
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It's tougher and tougher. New cars are just so #######ed GOOD. But at the risk of sounding repetitive...the single biggest variable is the driver. When you get guys in newer, capable cars coming up to you after a session asking you what kind of supercharger you have on the car, you know you're getting somewhere in the driver development department.

That being said, I'm running neck and neck with good drivers in M2's, M4's, Focus RS', so I think the answer to your question is a qualified "pretty damned competitive". At the same time, I get run over by a good driver in a GT350 or Camaro SS. As heavy as those cars are, there's only so much you can do against huge power, massive rubber, and great modern suspension.


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post #3 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 02:38 PM
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I have the same problem as MFE. I have guys in 800 hp GT500s come up and walk around my car and eventually ask what kind of power adder I am running. When I tell them it's a stock motor with the exception of a K&N filter they mumble something about their tires being heat cycled out and walk away. On the other hand I have been whooped by Civics and Miatas.
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post #4 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
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I understand the driver thing and all, just wondering about doing what you can to a Fox and then comparing it to what is now out there and wondering how it would compare. Thanks for the replies, gents.
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post #5 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 08:06 PM
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There are LOTS of new cars out there now that are completely competent on-track. New Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, various Porsches, BRZ/FRS, BMW's are very often found at track events with solid drivers behind the wheel. The new Mustangs are very good on track, albeit a bit heavy, and you see very few Fox-body cars these days.
You need to do a lot to a Fox to even bring it up to the S197 chassis cars, much less compete with stuff like the new ZL1 or GT350. And don't even consider the 1LE or R variants. There is probably nothing you can do to the Fox short of fully gutting, caging and turning it into a race car that will put it on equal footing with a 1LE, R, Z06, GT3/GT4, etc. even with equal drivers. And even then, it's not going to be in the same league.
While there are lots of mediocre drivers out there in fast cars, there are probably just as many mediocre drivers in mediocre cars.
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post #6 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 08:38 PM
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Cost, pride (built not bought), smile achieved from beating at least some of the new cars and just plain being the underdog are a few reasons I would go for it. Just my 2 pennies worth.

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post #7 of 78 Old 01-03-2018, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, being the underdog is nice.
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post #8 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 09:56 AM
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Chassis wise, we are behind. From a value perspective, we are ahead.

It's not to say the new cars aren't better, or that the old chassis is just as capable. Because relatively speaking, our cars have the potential to compete. When you take into consideration driver being the largest factor, coupled with the lack of cost built into the fox chassis world, you can be really competitive.

Your typical M2, M4, GT350, Vette, or otherwise driver will only own that car for so long. They won't be out there tweaking suspension or learning it's ways. They will drive it till they are bored, and upgrade. Whereas we own our cars because we want them and generally don't sell them. It takes time to build them anyway.
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post #9 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 02:52 PM
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Budget and driving skill sure does have a lot to do with it. There will always be good and average drivers in expensive cars, some you will hang with and some that you won't. If you are having fun it's okay and except that will happen. It's cool to get by the big money cars with my $8000.00 115 HP Miata.
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post #10 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, just going to continue working on this car and my driving. I don't want to be Mario Andretti.....lol.

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post #11 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 05:00 PM
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As noted driving skills are key. I have a 440 RWHP car with a full Griggs suspension. Full interior with AC and radio weighing in at 3,250. The car is faster than I am for sure. I run HPDE 4 events and the like. Sometimes I prevail against newer hot rods and sometimes I get soundly beat. They can modify their cars too. I can usually stay in the middle of the pack with those type cars. However I take great pride in driving my car to and from the track. And there is no better feeling than to pass some guy is his new $100K + car in my "old school" 86 Mustang.
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post #12 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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NICE job, Curt. Do you have the GR40 front and rear suspension? I have the full GR40 rear suspension and really like it. Been thinking about getting the front done.
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post #13 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 06:42 PM
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Yes. Front and rear complete with K member, coil overs, torque arm, lower control arms, cambered hybrid 8.8 and Watts Link. It honestly is not a Mustang anymore. Get the front done. The K member makes it faster. The torque arm makes it safer. Per Griggs anyway.
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post #14 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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post #15 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 06:52 PM
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Not the SLA. The K member sets the engine down and back and the coil overs work with original style struts. I looked into the SLA. Per my recollection Bruce said it would take roughly 2-3 seconds or so off times and I could step up to a 305 tire vs. the 275. I simply did not want to drop that kind of coin to change everything out. I dont race it competitively and like I said - Its already faster than I am.

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post #16 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I spoke to him yesterday about it and he is putting together the things I need for my front suspension. He mentioned the bigger tires with the setup as well. Seems pretty impressive.
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post #17 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 08:32 PM
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I bought the car with the suspension already installed. If I was starting from scratch I would go the SLA route because its a superior design over strut. I just couldn't justify the added expense of a complete front end redesign and new rims to go that much faster. I know I keep saying it but this car is faster than I am. I have been open tracking for some 18 years now (8 with this car) and this car scares me. Its very stable / neutral but it will pull hard forever it seems. I normally drive maybe 75% to 85% of the limit comfortably. I'm older now and guess I have settled down a little. hehe.
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post #18 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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56 here but still tend to go overboard now and then.

Thanks for the help Curt. I will keep you updated on the progression and hit you up with questions as they arrive.

Ed
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post #19 of 78 Old 01-04-2018, 09:51 PM
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My car is a full MM setup. Like the entire catalog. 486 RWHP big brakes etc etc

Iím on track at Mid-Ohio with a new (2017) 1LE Camaro. Iím putting about 4 cars a lap on him. Basically killing him down the straights. Next session he lines up right behind me. A few laps in and I canít shake him. Getting him on the straights and heís reeling me in on every turn. I let him by and he just keeps putting length between us. When the session is over I see him getting out of the car.....itís a different driver!! Ego deflated.... I sneak over to look at the car later in the day and heís on street tires! Iím on NTO1ís!!! Iím devastated.... Ego gone...
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post #20 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 08:41 AM
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"305/30ZR19 front, 325/30ZR19 Rear Goodyearģ Eagleģ F1 Supercar 3R summer-only tires† developed exclusively for Camaro"

...those are pretty narly street tires though!

And don't feel that bad, he has 650hp too!

A couple of years ago, I had a guy in a 2015 z28 (or 1LE, can't remember) in HPDE-1 (I was in HPDE-2 but we were on track at the same time) and he wouldn't take the point by when he easily could get by...I gave him the point by for 3 laps and him and his instructor kept waving me off. Finally, he passed me for the final 2 laps of the session. Afterwards, he came up to me and I was like "why didn't you go around me??" and he said the instructor told him to drive in my line because it was way faster than whatever he was doing before. He said he learned a lot from following me those 3 laps and was impressed that I was pulling the front right tire off the ground through some turns (had no idea...and that was on NT-05s).... and this is in my '93 LX hatch with stock cam, 100k mile short block, explorer intake, gt40y heads, stock MAF...what is that...maybe 225 at the wheels?? LOL ...those days are fun.
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post #21 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 10:36 AM
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"305/30ZR19 front, 325/30ZR19 Rear Goodyearģ Eagleģ F1 Supercar 3R summer-only tiresÜ developed exclusively for Camaro"

...those are pretty narly street tires though!

And don't feel that bad, he has 650hp too
That would be the case if it was a ZL1.....but it was a 1LE. It might use the same tire/rim combination but it has the standard 455HP N/A engine.

I have ran down and passed a newer Z/28 on track. I have video proof too lol. But itís all driver. Put a better driver behind the wheel of the Z/28 and he would be putting multiple car lengths on me every lap

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post #22 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 03:31 PM
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I have the same problem as MFE. I have guys in 800 hp GT500s come up and walk around my car and eventually ask what kind of power adder I am running. When I tell them it's a stock motor with the exception of a K&N filter they mumble something about their tires being heat cycled out and walk away. On the other hand I have been whooped by Civics and Miatas.
This,


ive held my own with GT350r, C5 vettes, ZL1 camaro. then get spanked by a gutted, built civic.

DRIVER MOD BABY! i love my fox and im going to continue to push the limit on how far i can go with this ol car.
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post #23 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 03:33 PM
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Yeah, being the underdog is nice.


I say this all the time, overweight and underpowered but still having a great time.
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post #24 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 06:04 PM
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Iím moving up to 18x11 wheels and 315 tires next winter to help. Obviously some fender flares and body mods too. Also going with some stiffer front/rear coilover springs too.

The newer cars all have the advantages of a much better chassis and suspension setup. They all come with some big 295-325+ tires or the space to install said tires with little effort. Iím going to at least take the ďbigĒ tire advantage away from them with some big rubber of my own. 😜

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post #25 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 09:02 PM
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The reason I went from tracking the Mustang to a Miata was to some day soon do wtw racing, it was much cheaper to have a race car. Had a lot of fun in Fox for what it is, passed a lot of average drivers in good cars. Miata can hang with fast cars in the turns if only had a couple hundred more HP in the straights.
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post #26 of 78 Old 01-05-2018, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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Nice job in that video. That was fun to watch. You need to do that 5.0 swap in that Miata and be done with it.
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post #27 of 78 Old 01-06-2018, 12:13 AM
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Civic, Miata, bmw, etc... got nothing on a fox haha. Go have fun. My daughters first car!
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post #28 of 78 Old 01-06-2018, 12:39 PM
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Nice job in that video. That was fun to watch. You need to do that 5.0 swap in that Miata and be done with it.
Plan is to wheel to wheel race next year, another summer of track days for practice. Spec Miata class SCCA and NASA specify what suspension and tires to use, must be all stock otherwise. Been running laps about 3 seconds over Spec Miata track records, hope to get closer after this summer, practice, practice, practice.

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post #29 of 78 Old 01-09-2018, 02:06 AM
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Plan is to wheel to wheel race next year, another summer of track days for practice. Spec Miata class SCCA and NASA specify what suspension and tires to use, must be all stock otherwise. Been running laps about 3 seconds over Spec Miata track records, hope to get closer after this summer, practice, practice, practice.
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post #30 of 78 Old 01-11-2018, 07:22 AM
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One thing worth noting again in the cost of those modern cars. Most of us are nowhere near spending 30-70k on our foxes, but that's what those guys have in their modern cars.

70k in a fox and you'd have a 4wd twin turbo hoonicorn.

I think it's safe to say we're into these cars because of the value. If we can even go out and play for a fraction of the cost I'd say that's a win.

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post #31 of 78 Old 01-12-2018, 10:14 AM
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I'm in the middle of completely rebuilding my foxbody for me it's not about how competitive the car is I just like how basic the car is it doesn't have ABS or traction control hell mine doesn't even have power brakes or any of the other things a modern car has and that's what I love about it. It's so basic its up to you make it go fast. I've always loved to drive cars you really have to work to go fast. I've had a 2007 STI and 2015 WRX both great cars but not really fun to drive. They really weren't a challenge to drive fast. The car I autocross now until the mustang is up and running is as basic as it gets not close to a class contender but a ton of fun to drive.



For me personally it's not about how competitive the car is it's how much fun I have driving it.
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post #32 of 78 Old 01-12-2018, 10:44 AM
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A huge leg up you can give any fox is tucking as much tire underneath it. As has been stated, getting a square 305 series tire under the car will drastically bump it's abilities up. More often than not, we lack the grip the suspension could potentially handle.

In due time I'll work to develop an SLA bolt on option for my street car (just because I want too). From everything I've read, an SLA is such a leap forward on these cars that's difficult to not do it. After reviewing those who DIY'd it, I don't see it being overly complicated. The difficult part only comes in the geometry... but that's where good software comes in.
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post #33 of 78 Old 01-12-2018, 11:59 AM
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In due time I'll work to develop an SLA bolt on option for my street car (just because I want too). From everything I've read, an SLA is such a leap forward on these cars that's difficult to not do it. After reviewing those who DIY'd it, I don't see it being overly complicated. The difficult part only comes in the geometry... but that's where good software comes in.
I'm with you thenemesis I'm looking on how I can build an SLA for the front of my car. The one that edhunter did for his car I really like allot. Its probably the best DIY one I've seen the added bonus is I already have the MM kmember.
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post #34 of 78 Old 01-12-2018, 01:54 PM
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I'm with you thenemesis I'm looking on how I can build an SLA for the front of my car. The one that edhunter did for his car I really like allot. Its probably the best DIY one I've seen the added bonus is I already have the MM kmember.
Peter

When time comes, let me know. I'll assist or coordinate with you while you mess around with it. I've got a pretty substantial welder at my disposal (can weld 1/2" steel), so when it comes time to create the C channel pieces for the frame rails and weld up a shock tower, I'm not afraid.

The part that genuinely changes the dynamics of an SLA setup is the choice of the lower arms. If you choose to move the ball joint forward in the LCA, it will ultimately effect where you place the UCA. You also effect clearance for the coil over assembly through the UCA and have to verify fitment. Not for the faint of heart but if you decide to do it, i'm game.
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post #35 of 78 Old 01-12-2018, 04:38 PM
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One thing worth noting again in the cost of those modern cars. Most of us are nowhere near spending 30-70k on our foxes, but that's what those guys have in their modern cars.

70k in a fox and you'd have a 4wd twin turbo hoonicorn.

I think it's safe to say we're into these cars because of the value. If we can even go out and play for a fraction of the cost I'd say that's a win.
Gotta love that, I got my fox 4 years ago to have as a track car. Not real pretty, only about 5K in it, was a respectacle track car and a blast as DD in summer. My 2000 Camaro SS sits a lot, rather drive fox, much more fun.
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