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post #1 of 24 Old 01-16-2017, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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4 lug disc brake kit from ssbc or lmr

Not 100% if this belongs here or not but my question is has anyone run the SSBC 4 lug rear disc brake conversion or the Lmr.com 4 lug rear disc brake kit?

Just put 4 lug 31 spline axles in last year not really looking to get rid of them just yet.

Thanks for the input as usual


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post #2 of 24 Old 01-16-2017, 06:06 PM
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I believe those kits are just the turbo coupe rear disc conversion with 4 lug discs.

Problem with that kit is they use the 45mm rear calipers and you basically have to use that with the upgraded Lincoln 73mm front calipers to keep brake bias in check. If you use that kit with stock front calipers you will have way to much rear brake bias....Yes, even with a proprtioning valve.


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post #3 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 12:09 AM
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I run that kit with cobra calipers and 13 inch disks.I'm using my stock booster with a 93 cobra master cylinder. No issues at all.

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post #4 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sradtodrag View Post
I run that kit with cobra calipers and 13 inch disks.I'm using my stock booster with a 93 cobra master cylinder. No issues at all.
He wants to stay 4 lug so the cobra 13" setup will not work for him.

I would have to do the math but I'm pretty sure even with the 13" cobra setup in front it's still to much rear bias to be "optimum". The 45mm rear caliper is just to big to use with any of the conventional front brake kits besides the single 73mm front caliper setup.

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post #5 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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I mean if 4 lug truly isn't going to work bias wise and what not that is fine. I could go 5 lug that just ups the budget a lot. I really wanted to run those rovo durbans 18" on my 92 fox but I guess the back spacing and what not isn't correct. I am already 31 spline rear so cheap axles are a no go, and spindles for front are getting harder to find locally here but I will keep an eye out.
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 01:09 PM
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I need to add that before i went to the cobra brakes I used stock calipers with the ssbc kit. I also used a adjustable proportioning valve to keep the bias in check.I did numerous test stops and the rears did lock up but only after the car was almost at a complete stop. I understand what lt1haha is saying but these were my results.

Both of my mustangs have the turbo coupe rear disks and they both started out the same using the stock front calipers with a prop valve. My 86 has the cobra disks up front now and my 93 gt has the baer 4 lug big brake kit with dual piston calipers.

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post #7 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LT1HAHA View Post
I believe those kits are just the turbo coupe rear disc conversion with 4 lug discs.

Problem with that kit is they use the 45mm rear calipers and you basically have to use that with the upgraded Lincoln 73mm front calipers to keep brake bias in check. If you use that kit with stock front calipers you will have way to much rear brake bias....Yes, even with a proprtioning valve.
But that setup is factory stock on the 1993 Cobra using the 60mm front fox calipers and 45mm rears. I've seen many copy that exact setup without much complain as to too much rear bias. The base model 92-93 Saleen setup did use the 73mm front calipers, with 45mm rear calipers stolen from the 91-92 Lincoln Mark 7.

I can't imagine a 10.5" rotor and 45mm caliper is generating more rear brake torque than an 11.65" rotor and 38mm caliper. Can't ignore the mechanical advantage of 1" greater rotor diameter



Anyway, reading into the OP's question, it sounds like he's looking for a way to add rear disk brakes, but keep his recently purchased 4-lug 31 spline axles. Yes, there is a way to do it, but he'll need to purchase additional parts on top of the two kits he mentioned, which are basically 93 cobra/87-88 t-bird rear disk setups.

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Basically he'll need to spring for the $170 to buy a different set of brackets to move the rear calipers inboard 3/4" and run his current 31 spline axles. This will also allow him to run wider rear wheels than he could if ran the setup as is and pushed it out 3/4" each side.

There is also a way to modify the existing brackets by cutting them and mounting them inboard of the axle flange.

Of course, then he'll need MC, booster, and prop valve mods, not to mention adapting the parking brake

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post #8 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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mustang5l5 that is what I was looking for
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang5L5 View Post

I can't imagine a 10.5" rotor and 45mm caliper is generating more rear brake torque than an 11.65" rotor and 38mm caliper
Well I went ahead and did the calculations. Calculations were done using 60lbs of leg force making 509 PSI on the rear line

With the 10.5" rotor and 45mm caliper (1.77") brake torque is 2318.346 inch pounds

With an 11.65" rotor and 38mm caliper (1.49") brake torque is 1847.123 inch pounds.

As you can see, piston area has a much greater effect on torque than the size of the rotor/lever.

Just because the 93 cobra used stock fox front calipers with the t/c rear disc still does not mean the system isn't rear biased. ESPECIALLY when your really pushing the car on something like an autocross course and braking in anything other than a straight line. Particularly the reason Saleen decided to use the 73mm upgrade as it made the brake system better balanced and offered additional braking force overall.
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LT1HAHA View Post
Well I went ahead and did the calculations. Calculations were done using 60lbs of leg force making 509 PSI on the rear line

With the 10.5" rotor and 45mm caliper (1.77") brake torque is 2318.346 inch pounds

With an 11.65" rotor and 38mm caliper (1.49") brake torque is 1847.123 inch pounds.

As you can see, piston area has a much greater effect on torque than the size of the rotor/lever.
Did you forget to account for the fact there are two 38mm pistons? The Cobra brakes (13" with dual piston PBRs) have greater piston area and greater rotor diameter, so I'm not sure how they could end up with less brake torque.

And I also don't understand the comment that piston area has a much greater effect than the rotor size; to determine torque, you multiple area and effective rotor diameter, so they have an equal effect.


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post #11 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Did you forget to account for the fact there are two 38mm pistons? The Cobra brakes (13" with dual piston PBRs) have greater piston area and greater rotor diameter, so I'm not sure how they could end up with less brake torque.

And I also don't understand the comment that piston area has a much greater effect than the rotor size; to determine torque, you multiple area and effective rotor diameter, so they have an equal effect.
No, as it was a comparison between the cobra REAR rotor/caliper and the turbo coupe REAR rotor/caliper. NOT the twin piston front calipers.

What I mean by that is that the larger rotor diameter of the cobra rotor (11.65) Vs the smaller t/c rotor (10.5) can't, even with the additional leverage of the larger rotor, manage the same brake torque as the t/c setup with the bigger piston even though it has a smaller rotor. As per the discussion above.

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post #12 of 24 Old 01-17-2017, 11:17 PM
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Sorry, I obviously didn't have my reading comprehension hat on.
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post #13 of 24 Old 01-18-2017, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LT1HAHA View Post
Well I went ahead and did the calculations. Calculations were done using 60lbs of leg force making 509 PSI on the rear line

With the 10.5" rotor and 45mm caliper (1.77") brake torque is 2318.346 inch pounds

With an 11.65" rotor and 38mm caliper (1.49") brake torque is 1847.123 inch pounds.

As you can see, piston area has a much greater effect on torque than the size of the rotor/lever.
.

That's interesting data.

Makes sense that they put that setup on heavier cars (turbo coupe) and a 5-lug similar version on the 91-92 Mark 7.

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post #14 of 24 Old 01-19-2017, 02:38 PM
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Rear SVO calipers are 54mm not 45mm. Also SVO rear rotors are 11.375" and the 93 cobra/TC rear discs are 10".

I have North Racecars 4 lug rear discs on my car and the 73mm calipers didn't work out for me. Too much pedal travel for my taste and had to really back off on the rear pressure with the adjustable proportioning valve. Switched back to the 60mm front calipers and the braking feel was improved and was able to dial in more rear bias. I think the pad size is the same for the 73mm and 60mm front caliper and with the the same rotor size I doubt there is a measurable difference between the 2. From what I read the only thing you gain going to 73mm caliper is slightly better pad wear.
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post #15 of 24 Old 01-19-2017, 04:00 PM
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I would say you're right on with all of that. Especially the part where a smaller piston caliper would make no measurable difference.

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post #16 of 24 Old 01-20-2017, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucho65-2 View Post
I have North Racecars 4 lug rear discs on my car and the 73mm calipers didn't work out for me. Too much pedal travel for my taste and had to really back off on the rear pressure with the adjustable proportioning valve. Switched back to the 60mm front calipers and the braking feel was improved and was able to dial in more rear bias. I think the pad size is the same for the 73mm and 60mm front caliper and with the the same rotor size I doubt there is a measurable difference between the 2. From what I read the only thing you gain going to 73mm caliper is slightly better pad wear.
In all fairness, without a properly sized MC, your results were to be expected. Increasing the front caliper piston surface area by nearly 50% is going to give you a soft pedal with a lot of travel without a corresponding increase in MC piston diameter. It's the same concept as if you put a larger bore MC on a car without changing any of the calipers resulting in a firmer pedal with a short travel (but requiring more effort)

I don't disagree with your conclusion though that the 60mm front and 45mm rears is the way to go here.

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post #17 of 24 Old 01-20-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mustang5L5 View Post

I don't disagree with your conclusion though that the 60mm front and 45mm rears is the way to go here.
I respectfully disagree but to each their own. No doubt that the 73mm calipers is a better balanced setup. I did not like it with the stock calipers in front as threshold braking was nearly impossible without premature rear lockup. If your not planning on doing any racing, then keeping the stock fronts won't be nearly as menacing a setup.

HOWEVER, if you would decide that you want the 73mm front calipers it can be done VERY cheaply. What I did was go to Autozone and get both calipers for the appropriate Lincoln (I forget what year/model but it's easily found). Then buy a master cylinder for an 85 SVO (there's other models that use the same one which is also easily found). Switch it all over then bring your stock calipers back in and get your core return money back.

You will have to buy the appropriate size adapters for the MC that have the appropriate female threads for your brake lines. I got these from NAPA.

A well balanced brake setup for under $200.

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post #18 of 24 Old 01-20-2017, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mustang5L5 View Post
In all fairness, without a properly sized MC, your results were to be expected. Increasing the front caliper piston surface area by nearly 50% is going to give you a soft pedal with a lot of travel without a corresponding increase in MC piston diameter. It's the same concept as if you put a larger bore MC on a car without changing any of the calipers resulting in a firmer pedal with a short travel (but requiring more effort)

I don't disagree with your conclusion though that the 60mm front and 45mm rears is the way to go here.
When redid the brakes I'm 99% sure I went with a 94 GT MC which is 1 1/16", this was almost 9 years ago. A SVO MC is 1 1/8". From reading of other people's experiences going to 73mm calipers, I figured the 1 1/16" bore would be acceptable but it didn't work for me. I wanted to keep the newer style MC is the reason why I didn't go with the SVO MC. It's also possible I got the wrong size MC since I didn't measure it before installing it.

I did a few track days with NASA after the install and anybody that I told about 73mm calipers all said the same thing, go back to the 60mm calipers with the TC rear discs.
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post #19 of 24 Old 01-20-2017, 06:14 PM
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When redid the brakes I'm 99% sure I went with a 94 GT MC which is 1 1/16", this was almost 9 years ago. A SVO MC is 1 1/8". From reading of other people's experiences going to 73mm calipers, I figured the 1 1/16" bore would be acceptable but it didn't work for me. I wanted to keep the newer style MC is the reason why I didn't go with the SVO MC.
Strictly speaking from a perspective of hydraulic systems, I could see how you still had a soft pedal. Just doing some napkin calcs, the 93 cobra setup with 60/45 and 1" bore works out to a ratio of about 17.5:1. If you keep everything else the same (booster, pedal arm ratio, calipers, etc) then changing the MC to the 1 1/16" bore gives you areound 20:1, which is on the soft/long travel side of things. An SVO MC works out to about 18:1 so that would be pretty close to the same exact feel, but it's the old style MC which i personally wouldn't want to run, but probably would be the one to try.


It's been years since I'd run any of these setup as I've had a mix of 4 and 5 lug setups along the way and really don't remember feel/balance/etc enough to comment. Current setup is SN95 11.65" rears and 13" cobra front rotors with c5 vette calipers. I certainly like my setup now.


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Originally Posted by LT1HAHA View Post
I respectfully disagree but to each their own. No doubt that the 73mm calipers is a better balanced setup. I did not like it with the stock calipers in front as threshold braking was nearly impossible without premature rear lockup. If your not planning on doing any racing, then keeping the stock fronts won't be nearly as menacing a setup.
I'm actually confused as to what brake setup we are talking about? What MC did you use?
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post #20 of 24 Old 01-20-2017, 08:28 PM
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I was talking about the 60mm fronts with 45mm tears as far as premature lockup.

It's been so long ago I don't remember what MC I had with the stock 60mm fronts and 45mm rears.

I know for sure when I had the 73mm fronts and 45mm rears I was running a SVO 1 1/8 bore MC. Balance was much improved with this setup Vs the stock front 60mm calipers especially under threshold braking/ race conditions. However, even with the 1 1/8 bore MC pedal travel was a little long for my liking.

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post #21 of 24 Old 01-22-2017, 06:58 PM
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With the right MC seems either 73mm or 60 mm will work with the TC rear discs. I've read there are many factors that determine brake bias, weight distribution, suspension design, tire size, pad compound, anti-dive, anti-squat, and probably a bunch of other factors.

Given the different combinations ford has used on different fox bodies brake bias doesn't appear to be critical.

10" discs - 9" drums
11" discs 60mm calipers - 9" drums
11" discs 60mm calipers - 10.5" discs 45mm calipers
11" discs 73mm calipers - 10.5" discs 45 mm calipers
11" discs 73mm calipers - 11.375" discs 54mm calipers

Weight and weight distribution of a SVO and a Mark VII I don't think are that close. Same with a TC and a 93 cobra. Yet they had the size calipers and discs. The Mark VII even switched from 54mm calipers and 11.375" discs to the 10.5 TC set up in the rear and kept the same front brake setup.

From what I read front and rear bias can't really be compensated with a proportioning valve since it doesn't adjust total pressure going to rear brakes just the point where pressure starts to bleed off.
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post #22 of 24 Old 01-28-2017, 04:01 PM
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I put the SSBC kit on my 86 in 91. Initially went with the SVO 73mm caliper and M/C (huge piston). As noted above, that set-up didn't work so well. Way too much front brake torque bias - something like 86% to the front. No way a manual prop valve to adjust knee-point could overcome the front heavy torque bias. Went to the stock 60mm caliper - kept the big M/C. This dropped the front torque bias to about 82% to the front. Pedal pressure was fine but could not lock the rears - prop adjusted to full rear. I tried everything including running a less aggressive pad in front (not the best solution). Finally gave it full rear and left it alone. At least the rear wasn't locking first.

Left it that way until about 5 years ago when I swapped to the Cobra 13" front - kept the same rear and the big M/C again. (By the way, Discbrakesrus makes the correct rotor to swap to 5-lug and keep the SSBC conversion.) This didn't change the bias to the better - actually went to 83% to the front. I was still having a hard time getting the rears to lock at all. So on advice from a brake expert, changed the M/C to the 93 Cobra 1". Didn't change anything - not even pedal feel. Going to a little larger rear rotor and keeping the 45mm caliper wasn't doable. So, I moved to the Cobra rear. That resulted in a front torque bias of about 75%. Much better but still a problem with locking the rear. Turns out, the SSBC prop valve was defective; didn't discover this until last year. That doesn't matter now since I swapped in an ABS system. Car is still down so have not tried the ABS.

In any event, the issue is that despite the multiple times I changed my brake system, the rear was a problem given the front torque bias - not certain when the prop valve broke. But the design F/R torque bias is important and must be reasonably matched to the car's F/R static weight bias since weight transfers to the front on braking. This is where the prop valve comes in; reducing rear pressure along the slope - called the knee-point - so that the rears don't lock first.
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post #23 of 24 Old 01-30-2017, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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so basically after looking at all this stuff is it just safe to say save up and do 5 lug swap with some cobra front calipers and v8/v6 standard rear disc setup with prop valve and 93 cobra booster and 93 cobra master?

I was going to replace brake lines before this season but not sure if I should just wait and do the whole 5 lug swap. I have realized doing things twice (like axles) makes no sense. Thing that stinks is I want a wider tire after doing HCI swap but don't want to buy 4 lug wheels (I have stock 4 lug ponys now) just to sell them in a year for half of what you pay you know what I mean
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-30-2017, 04:41 PM
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Doing things twice or even four time in my case isn't good, but given the time between iterations not unreasonable. Once I had the rear discs on the car I was under the mistaken impression that stopping distances would improve. Not so in my case; distances were longer (fairly non-scientific shade tree process). But it was accurate enough to demonstrate that brake upgrades are like motors - the combo is the key and I had the wrong combo. But I was on a budget so the first iteration lasted more than 10 years before I went to the smaller front piston caliper. When I had the money for 5-lug wheels (96 Cobras with very old GYs), I couldn't afford doing the full Cobra set-up. Since I already had rear discs I found a source for the correct 5 lug rear rotors and kept the rear as it was and upgraded to the cobra fronts (used parts here too). Kept the SVO M/C (until I swapped that piece looking for more rear brake) and I'm still using the stock 86 booster.

I believe in doing things once but this was an evolutionary process. I'm still learning about brake torque bias and related subjects. It takes a while to test and experiment. In my case, I went with the "hot set-up" at the time which was just wrong from a shorter stopping distance perspective. But I didn't know that then.
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