302 oil starvation under braking during AutoX - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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302 oil starvation under braking during AutoX

Hey guys,

I'm running an Explorer 5.0 in a '97 BMW M3 so I hope you won't run me out of here too quickly, but I ran into an issue while autocrossing yesterday and figured this would be the place to ask.

The engine's bottom end is totally stock Explorer with the exception of a generic Summit Fox body oil pan and pickup. The engine had 160k miles on it when I installed it and I've done about 3-4k on top of that. I'm running around 5.5 quarts of 5W-20 Motorcraft oil (dipstick shows a slight overfill, maybe 1/8").

I'm finally getting my brakes and my driving sorted and during yesterday's event I really got on the brakes hard in the braking zones. When I did that, I saw my low oil pressure light come on. I'm running a Megasquirt with a 0-100psi AEM oil pressure sensor.

What it comes down to is that I'm dropping to 10-15psi under hard braking. It recovers after a couple seconds, but obviously this is bad for the engine. I added an oil pressure gauge to my overlay so you can see what happens here:

https://youtu.be/b03EVsF9Gn8?t=1m2s

I know that hundreds of Fox bodies have raced with stock unbaffled pans and with stickier tires/better brakes than I have. Is this a common thing? Do I need to look at drainback or pickup issues? I'm seeing ~17psi at idle and 42+psi at high RPMs which isn't great but isn't too terrible. Thoughts? Suggestions?

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post #2 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 11:44 AM
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Add an Accusump. I blew a 302 in an E30 chassis (and that was with an Accusump, so...). It was the result of a couple things: severely cut down pan to fit the E30 chassis (I think the E36 is better about this), poor drain back out of the heads, and what I feel like was never enough oil pressure. Went dry sump and never looked back.

PS why such a thin oil?

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post #3 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply! I just stuck with the factory recommendation to start with. Obviously the factory cares more about emissions and fuel economy than performance, so I'm open to using something else. The oil analysis I did at the last change came back with high aluminum, iron, and copper.
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post #4 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 02:21 PM
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I'd try a 10w-30 and see if the hot oil pressures go up. 42# hot would make me nervous. Do you have an oil temp gauge?

Did you check the clearance of the oil pump pickup to the bottom of the pan?
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post #5 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ross2004 View Post
I'd try a 10w-30 and see if the hot oil pressures go up. 42# hot would make me nervous.
My peak RPM at the end of the long straightaway was 5250rpm and oil pressure was 47.2psi. After letting off, oil pressure spiked to 56psi then two seconds later bottomed out at 16psi.

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Do you have an oil temp gauge?
I do not. Should I? I have a few spare inputs on the Megasquirt, it wouldn't be too hard to add oil temperature as well.

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Did you check the clearance of the oil pump pickup to the bottom of the pan?
Nope.

I have this pickup: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-247s

And this pan: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-123458

I suppose during my next oil change I could pull the level sender plug and get the inspection camera in there to see what the clearance looks like.
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post #6 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 03:25 PM
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An oil temp gauge is a worth-while investment. That plus your pressure gauge will tell you a lot, and can help you settle on the oil weight your engine needs.

The pickup should be 3/8 - 1/2" off the bottom of the pan.

Are you running any remote oil filter(s) or oil cooler?

Stock oil pump?
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post #7 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Stock oil pump, and the stock Explorer oil cooler:



It's a 90 degree adapter on the filter that engine coolant runs through.
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post #8 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 03:56 PM
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I had oil starvation as well, but when going around hard corners. I just replaced the stock pan with a canton road racing, baffled pan, Problem solved, i have plenty of oil pressure all the time now.

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post #9 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 04:10 PM
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To me the stock Fox body pan is a drag racers pan. Basically the opposite of what you want for autox or road course use.
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post #10 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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It seems like the front of the rear sump is sloped to guide the oil right up and out under braking.

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post #11 of 46 Old 08-15-2016, 08:50 PM
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Yes, it's a common thing. I tried baffling the stock pan, didn't work. I run a Canton trap door road race pan and while it's an improvement, it's still not perfect, because there's a gap between the top of the trap and the bottom of the pan's hump that still allows oil to slosh forward.

Apparently a better solution is the Moroso: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-20506/?rtype=7

Better still is the FRPP pan they finally made https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m6675drs302
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post #12 of 46 Old 08-18-2016, 08:59 PM
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Do install the FRPP pan and pickup.

Don't install the oil temperature probe, unless you are prepared for the shock of how hot your oil gets.
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post #13 of 46 Old 08-21-2016, 10:28 AM
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I run the FRPP pan/pickup. Much improved over my old Canton pan. Even now though with big brakes and race tires I still get pressure drops. I also have an accusump and it helps but even then it doesn't keep full pressure under those few seconds of oil starvation. Instead of 15psi, with the accusump help it will maintain around 25-30.

I run a HUGE oil cooler and even then I'm seeing 270+ oil temps. Your oil is definitely to thin IMO for race duty. I run 20w-50 redline on my car but it is built with race clearances. Minimum on your engine with 160k miles I would run 10w-30 and if it was mine I would be running a 10w-40 synthetic of the highest quality like Redline, Amsoil signature, Royal Purple. A good non-sheer synthetic oil will help during those few seconds of oil starvation.

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post #14 of 46 Old 08-22-2016, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LT1HAHA View Post
I run the FRPP pan/pickup. Much improved over my old Canton pan.
You said much improved. How much improved to be exact? Right now I'm running a high volume pump with a Canton pan and pickup. I have seen pressure drops to as low as 20-30 psi under hard braking. How well would you say that FRPP pan worked compared to that?

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post #15 of 46 Old 08-22-2016, 04:41 PM
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Obviously I don't have scientific data for this but I'll tell you my experience.

Same situation as you with canton pan only with race rubber and race pads mine would occasionally go to 5-10 psi. Especially on any down hill braking zones. Also, I was getting low pressure on turns too. With the canton pan I would get pressure drops from 20-30 psi under brakes on the street with street tires and pads. 😳

Ordered the FRPP pan. Filled canton and FRPP pan with 7qts water. Turn at roughly 45 degrees and the FRPP pan has nearly 1/3 more water left in the sump than the canton.

On with the FRPP pan and test drive. Cannot get any pressure fluctuations whatsoever on street with street tires and pads.

To the track with FRPP pan. Race rubber & race pads. Still getting some pressure fluctuations with FRPP pan although not nearly as severe. Pressure drops to 30 on long hard braking zone only. Recovers immediately and never drops in turns.

I would get pressure fluctuations on nearly every braking zone with canton. At Putnam park for instance I got pressure drop on 8 out of the 10 braking zones. 2 of those would fall off the map at around 5psi. With FRPP I get pressure drop at the 2 turns where canton was at 5psi. With FRPP pan it's about 30psi. FRPP pan seems to also recover quicker. Where the canton was at pressure drop long into the turn, FRPP has recovered halfway through turn-in.
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post #16 of 46 Old 08-31-2016, 12:21 PM
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great thread, Apparently I have a little more research to do before buying a pan. was planning on the 15-644s canton
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post #17 of 46 Old 09-01-2016, 02:12 PM
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has anyone had experience with the Aviaid pans? the front of the rear sump seems to be straight up and down with no curve to it, along with their baffle it seems that it may not have near the issues most have described here.

Wet Sump Road Race Oil Pans (SBF 289/302 & 351W) at Aviaid | Page 1 of 3
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post #18 of 46 Old 09-02-2016, 06:41 PM
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If your serious about road racing, spring for the FRPP pan

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
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post #19 of 46 Old 09-02-2016, 06:53 PM
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The FRPP pan is the best one that we have tested.

One important thing here to point out. It is very difficult to compare oil pressure readings from one car to another. This has to do with the amount of averaging (smoothing) built into the oil pressure gauge. Look at the link below for examples of different types of smoothing and averaging.

Signal Smoothing - MATLAB & Simulink Example

ALL gauges and the sensors, will smooth the measurements to some degree. OEM gauges tend to smooth the most as the manufacturer doesn't want someone to freak out when the oil pressure drops to 20psi for 0.5 seconds during a very hard stop. If you use the proper type of sending unit and sample it at 1kHz, you will be really surprised what the oil pressure really looks like. You can see the pressure pulses from the individual rotors in the oil pump.

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post #20 of 46 Old 09-04-2016, 12:15 PM
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Ok im going to mess up a nice thread with a really dumb question.

Seems I remember reading in a magazine (i think it was MM&FF) a really long time ago, that over filling the stock pan by a quart during track days or autox events will help this problem to some degree. Is this true?

I understand not wanting to daily it like that, but seasions of sustained high rpm is it something worth entertaining?

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post #21 of 46 Old 09-04-2016, 04:21 PM
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Overfilling the oipan may make the oil pressure read higher, but it won't necessarily save the bearings.

When the oil is overfilled, there is much more windage going on. This means that the oil is much more aerated. Aerated oil has does a very poor job of keeping the bearing from touching the crankshaft.

When the oil level is low and the pickup sucks air, you don't get aerated oil so much as you get large lumps of air in the oil passeges. This is not as bad as the bearings will still have a layer of unaerated oil on them. It is important to remember that the oil pressure from the pump, DOES virtually nothing to keep the bearing and crankshaft from touching. It is the incompressibility and viscosity of the oil that does this.
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post #22 of 46 Old 09-04-2016, 08:10 PM
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How is the ground clearance with that FRPP pan? That rear sump looks deep.Any pics of one installed?
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post #23 of 46 Old 09-04-2016, 09:20 PM
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This is what bad things looks likes. After 10 years of abuse since last rebuild, oil pressure kept bottoming out at Palmer. Decided to yank motor. #2 bearings are toast (as were rod cap bearings, but no where near as bad).
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post #24 of 46 Old 09-04-2016, 10:55 PM
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The bottom of the FRPP sump does not sit below the bottom of the k-member.

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post #25 of 46 Old 09-05-2016, 02:45 PM
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Since we are on the subject, Jack, a quick question for you about FRPP pan fitment. I've got a Canton pan currently on the motor that's shifted back an inch on the MM K-member. The front sump is pretty deep on Canton, so when I did that, I had to move the rack down on adjustable bushings to accommodate the pan. After that was done, the bumpsteer is all out of whack, and I'm maxed out currently, on the bolt through design. The question is, how deep the front sump on the FRPP pan, and is it possible to run the rack in the middle or upper position with engine shifted back an inch?

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post #26 of 46 Old 09-05-2016, 03:33 PM
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FWIW, I've used that pan but with a Griggs K member 1" setback. Front sump doesn't come into play as the rack fits in the center section. From the block, the bottom of center section is about 4.375" and required the rack to be lowered from the center hole but I don't remember how far but I am using '99 spindles.
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post #27 of 46 Old 09-07-2016, 06:43 PM
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LT1HAHA I looked into that FRPP pan after Reading this thread.

My current setup is in a 67 cougar with the Detroit speed aluma frame front suspension and the front sump of the FRPP pan will hit the Rack and pinion even with all of the engine mount spacers in place. I have a max of about 6", maaaaayyybbee 6.25" with all the spacers in place FRPP is 6.7". After that It came down to Kevko and aviaid and I went avaid. Their front sump is 5.5" and their rear sump had plenty of header clearance.

I also contacted Gordon Levy for pictures of his pan and I was told to check his FaceBook which didn't yield too much in the way of pictures.
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post #28 of 46 Old 09-08-2016, 11:23 PM
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What dipstick did you guys use with the FRPP pan?
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post #29 of 46 Old 09-09-2016, 03:43 PM
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What dipstick did you guys use with the FRPP pan?
I just reused the Canton dipstick that I had used with their T-sump pan.
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post #30 of 46 Old 09-09-2016, 10:35 PM
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What's wrong with using stock dip stick with either Canton or FRPP pan?

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post #31 of 46 Old 09-12-2016, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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I was able to get out for another autocross event yesterday. I drained the Motorcraft 5W-20 and went with Mobil 1 10W-40, overfilling by a half quart. I set my oil pressure light to come on at 20psi and it didn't show up all day. I purposely did some hard stops from higher speeds the pressure only came down to about 22psi instead of the 9-10 I was seeing before. It also recovered much more quickly, with oil pressure rising as soon as revs rose.

Video of a run with overlaid data here:

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions! When I finally build this engine I'm definitely going baffled.
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post #32 of 46 Old 01-04-2017, 12:12 PM
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Bringing this thread, I've got a follow up question. Someone brought up to me that if there is an oil starvation issue, sloshing forward, the oil pressure should drop to 0, not 20 psi, right? Does this mean that there is an intermittent starvation issue and the gauge just doesn't record it?

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post #33 of 46 Old 01-04-2017, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplicaR View Post
Bringing this thread, I've got a follow up question. Someone brought up to me that if there is an oil starvation issue, sloshing forward, the oil pressure should drop to 0, not 20 psi, right? Does this mean that there is an intermittent starvation issue and the gauge just doesn't record it?
My guess would be that it's actually sucking "some" oil rather than absolutely no oil.

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post #34 of 46 Old 01-04-2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
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My guess would be that it's actually sucking "some" oil rather than absolutely no oil.
By that you mean sometimes it's sucking oil, sometimes not? Or submerged partially, because I don't think that's what is happening here.

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post #35 of 46 Old 01-04-2017, 12:49 PM
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My guess is that it's a combination of all of f that. The oil is constantly moving all over so in one braking and turning event it's a combination of the above.

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
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