10" Hypercoils too short for MM Koni Front CO's? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 16 Old 07-27-2016, 04:12 AM Thread Starter
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10" Hypercoils too short for MM Koni Front CO's?

I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Installing MMC0-2 (MM Koni Coilover kit on my 97. Jack recommended 10" 325 Springs, so that is what I got. The springs seem way too short.. Even with the jackscrew at the very top of the collar, the thrust cone doesn't reach the top spring perch..

I feel one of two things is wrong.. The collar is too short? I measured it at 7"? Is it possible I got a fox collar?
2. The thrust cone actually slides on to the thicker part of the shaft meaning I got the wrong cone? I've gone over the instructions repeatedly and I cannot tell if it goes on to the thick portion of the shaft or not??

Here are some pics..

0726162301b_HDR (1) by Matt Whidden, on Flickr


0726162301e_HDR (1) by Matt Whidden, on Flickr

0726162305_HDR (1) by Matt Whidden, on Flickr


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post #2 of 16 Old 07-27-2016, 04:20 AM Thread Starter
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In this picture here, the thrust cone appears to have the same diameter hole as the top collar? Meaning it would slide down onto the thicker part of the shaft?

mmmmmm by Matt Whidden, on Flickr


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post #3 of 16 Old 07-27-2016, 07:05 AM
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if i recall, that is correct. there are spacers that go on top of the top collar which go against the bottom of the strut hole or caster/camber plate. the shock will compress once there is weight on it after its installed. and youll probably have to lower the adjusting collar a good inch or 2.

mine are on the car so i cant go look for you at the moment.
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post #4 of 16 Old 07-27-2016, 03:21 PM
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Mr. Whidden,

You've assembled everything correctly and you appear to have the correct parts.

As the other poster has mentioned, when you install the coilover on the car, you are going to need to lower the lower spring perch a couple of inches or your car is going to be higher than stock.

There are two other things that are confusing things here.

We used to anodize parts for different applications different colors to make it easy to tell them apart, both internally and externally. Coilover parts for MM/Bilstein struts were gold for example. Koni coilover parts were blue. Apparently, we eventually had too many dumb ass customers (yes, I am calling these customers out) who complained that the different colors of the parts clashed with their favorite wheels, car color, Justin Beaver's hair, whatever.

Eventually we succumbed to the pressure and just anodized all the parts black, so they were neutral. Now every time a customer has a part that they can't identify, they have to find or buy a set of calipers and we have to teach them how to use them, just to identify the part. Internally, we had to make a ton of go/no go gauges to make sure that things didn't get mixed up.

In this case, we were sort of lazy when we wrote these installation instructions. In a few of the photos, the parts are actually for a Bilstein/MM coilover kit (gold anodizing). We reuse photos whenever possible to save time. You are the only person I've ever seen who gauged the ID of the thrust cone based on the ID of the thrust bearing in the photo and realized that it is going to slide down to a different place on a Koni strut!

In your supplied photo, the thrust cone is slide down to the correct point. When the coilover is installed, the thrust cone will be clamped against the shoulder on the Koni strut shaft.

If you install tender springs on the front, after you get the ride height adjusted, get some 3M helicopter tape and wrap it around the threaded sleeve above the lower perch. This will help keep the threads from getting damaged.

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Last edited by Jack Hidley; 07-27-2016 at 03:23 PM.
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post #5 of 16 Old 07-27-2016, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
Mr. Whidden,

You've assembled everything correctly and you appear to have the correct parts.

As the other poster has mentioned, when you install the coilover on the car, you are going to need to lower the lower spring perch a couple of inches or your car is going to be higher than stock.

There are two other things that are confusing things here.

We used to anodize parts for different applications different colors to make it easy to tell them apart, both internally and externally. Coilover parts for MM/Bilstein struts were gold for example. Koni coilover parts were blue. Apparently, we eventually had too many dumb ass customers (yes, I am calling these customers out) who complained that the different colors of the parts clashed with their favorite wheels, car color, Justin Beaver's hair, whatever.

Eventually we succumbed to the pressure and just anodized all the parts black, so they were neutral. Now every time a customer has a part that they can't identify, they have to find or buy a set of calipers and we have to teach them how to use them, just to identify the part. Internally, we had to make a ton of go/no go gauges to make sure that things didn't get mixed up.

In this case, we were sort of lazy when we wrote these installation instructions. In a few of the photos, the parts are actually for a Bilstein/MM coilover kit (gold anodizing). We reuse photos whenever possible to save time. You are the only person I've ever seen who gauged the ID of the thrust cone based on the ID of the thrust bearing in the photo and realized that it is going to slide down to a different place on a Koni strut!

In your supplied photo, the thrust cone is slide down to the correct point. When the coilover is installed, the thrust cone will be clamped against the shoulder on the Koni strut shaft.

If you install tender springs on the front, after you get the ride height adjusted, get some 3M helicopter tape and wrap it around the threaded sleeve above the lower perch. This will help keep the threads from getting damaged.

Thank you for the prompt reply Mr. Hidley. After looking some more and speaking to a friend, I figured that was the case. I just didn't realize how little travel the suspension actually has. I'm hoping the car doesn't need to be lifted often, but just so I don't have to worry about recentering the upper perches, I'm going to wait for the helper springs to show up before I install them. I still have all the rear suspension to do anyway. After looking at both, I do certainly like the bilstein design more, but I really did like the adjustability and handling of the konis with my H&R supersports, so I'm very much looking forward to driving it with the coilover and phb setup.

Here's the helper setup I ordered.

Capture+_2016-07-27-09-25-24 by Matt Whidden, on Flickr

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post #6 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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[quote=Jack Hidley;17353274]Mr. Whidden,

You've assembled everything correctly and you appear to have the correct parts.

As the other poster has mentioned, when you install the coilover on the car, you are going to need to lower the lower spring perch a couple of inches or your car is going to be higher than stock.

There are two other things that are confusing things here.

We used to anodize parts for different applications different colors to make it easy to tell them apart, both internally and externally. Coilover parts for MM/Bilstein struts were gold for example. Koni


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coilover parts were blue. Apparently, we eventually had too many dumb ass customers (yes, I am calling these customers out) who complained that the different colors of the parts clashed with their favorite wheels, car color, Justin Beaver's hair, whatever.

Eventually we succumbed to the pressure and just anodized all the parts black, so they were neutral. Now every time a customer has a part that they can't identify, they have to find or buy a set of calipers and we have to teach them how to use them, just to identify the part. Internally, we had to make a ton of go/no go gauges to make sure that things didn't get mixed up.

In this case, we were sort of lazy when we wrote these installation instructions. In a few of the photos, the parts are actually for a Bilstein/MM coilover kit (gold anodizing). We reuse photos whenever possible to save time. You are the only person I've ever seen who gauged the ID of the thrust cone based on the ID of the thrust bearing in the photo and realized that it is going to slide down to a different place on a Koni strut!

In your supplied photo, the thrust cone is slide down to the correct point. When the coilover is installed, the thrust cone will be clamped against the shoulder on the Koni strut shaft.

If you install tender springs on the front, after you get the ride height adjusted, get some 3M helicopter tape and wrap it around the threaded sleeve above the lower perch. This will help keep the threads from getting damaged.
Welp, still having issues here with the Konis. Truly regretting getting these over Bilsteins at this point.. I do not like the stepped shaft, which creates alot of issues with no preload. The threaded collar floating on the strut also bothers me.


So, anyhow, I got the helper springs installed and the first CO on the car. The helper spring spacer bottoms out on the strut before I've even lowered the car to a decent ride height. Here's a pic with the jack under the car..

It really feels like all of my issues here stem back to the 10" springs.

Here's the strut off the car.. (obviously all the spacers are just so I didn't have to thread the nut down for the pic)

0802161549a_HDR by Matt Whidden, on Flickr


Uncompressed on the car..

0802161544_HDR by Matt Whidden, on Flickr

Ride height that bottomed out the helper spring spacer...
0802161548b_HDR by Matt Whidden, on Flickr

Closeup

0802161548a_HDR by Matt Whidden, on Flickr

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post #7 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Was wondering how much suspension travel you normally end up with on a setup like this at a lower ride height (similar to hr SS)

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post #8 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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So. I figured my options were to 1. Trim the helper spring spacer down or 2, remove the helper springs all together..

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post #9 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 07:48 PM
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Mr. Whidden,

I'm not sure exactly where you think that there is a problem here. I don't see one.

In stock form, the front of your car has 7.2" of total travel. This is with the bumpstop removed. It is limited in both directions by physical limitations of the strut. From ride height, it is divided up roughly into 3.6" of droop travel and 3.6" of bump travel.

If the car is then lowered 1", by changing the springs for instance, the suspension will have 2.6" of bump travel and 4.6" of droop travel. At full droop travel, the spring will probably be loaded against the FCA with force. More on this later.

When you install a coilover kit on the strut, some things are now different.

If not properly chosen, the spring could artificially limit the bump travel by coilobinding before the strut bottoms out. In your case, this will not happen because the spring was correctly chosen.

If a much higher stiffness spring is used, then it is possible that the spring will come loose between the upper and lower perches, when the suspension is at full mechanical droop. This is a function of the spring rate, unsprung corner weight on that corner of the car, motion ratio and available droop travel in the strut at the ride height that you will be using. To understand this relationship, read through my post linked below.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/7165850-post12.html

I'm assuming that you've read the post. If you haven't nothing below will make any sense.

The tender spring that you purchased has a spring rate of 12lbs/in and is 4" long. This means that when 48lbs of force is applied to it, it will become coilbound solid. If you lower the car down onto the ground just slightly, there will be 48lbs of force on the spring and it will be coilbound. At the same time, there is 48lbs of force on the main spring which has a rate of 325lbs/in. This spring is only going to compress 0.15". This will barely be noticeable.

If you jack up the car so that there is only 24lbs on the springs, now the tender spring will be 2" long and the main spring will only be compressed 0.075" of an inch.

From your photos, it appears that this is what the suspension is doing currently.

Does all of this make sense?

In your e-mail to me, you mentioned that the front suspension will only have 2.75" of travel because of the bumpstop. I assume that you mean that the suspension has 2.75" of BUMP travel (from ride height to full compression). Is this correct? If this is the case, this is completely normal for the front suspension on your car.

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post #10 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
Mr. Whidden,

I'm not sure exactly where you think that there is a problem here. I don't see one.

In stock form, the front of your car has 7.2" of total travel. This is with the bumpstop removed. It is limited in both directions by physical limitations of the strut. From ride height, it is divided up roughly into 3.6" of droop travel and 3.6" of bump travel.

If the car is then lowered 1", by changing the springs for instance, the suspension will have 2.6" of bump travel and 4.6" of droop travel. At full droop travel, the spring will probably be loaded against the FCA with force. More on this later.

When you install a coilover kit on the strut, some things are now different.

If not properly chosen, the spring could artificially limit the bump travel by coilobinding before the strut bottoms out. In your case, this will not happen because the spring was correctly chosen.

If a much higher stiffness spring is used, then it is possible that the spring will come loose between the upper and lower perches, when the suspension is at full mechanical droop. This is a function of the spring rate, unsprung corner weight on that corner of the car, motion ratio and available droop travel in the strut at the ride height that you will be using. To understand this relationship, read through my post linked below.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/7165850-post12.html

I'm assuming that you've read the post. If you haven't nothing below will make any sense.

The tender spring that you purchased has a spring rate of 12lbs/in and is 4" long. This means that when 48lbs of force is applied to it, it will become coilbound solid. If you lower the car down onto the ground just slightly, there will be 48lbs of force on the spring and it will be coilbound. At the same time, there is 48lbs of force on the main spring which has a rate of 325lbs/in. This spring is only going to compress 0.15". This will barely be noticeable.

If you jack up the car so that there is only 24lbs on the springs, now the tender spring will be 2" long and the main spring will only be compressed 0.075" of an inch.

From your photos, it appears that this is what the suspension is doing currently.

Does all of this make sense?

In your e-mail to me, you mentioned that the front suspension will only have 2.75" of travel because of the bumpstop. I assume that you mean that the suspension has 2.75" of BUMP travel (from ride height to full compression). Is this correct? If this is the case, this is completely normal for the front suspension on your car.
I'm still working things out.. I still think the large bump stop is killing me.. I lowered the spring as much as I could and still could not get the car as low as it was the H&R's.
So I removed the spring an just used the strut.
I end up hitting the bumpstop basically at ride height.

0802161746a_HDR by Matt Whidden, on Flickr

I had to use one large spacer and one small spacer for the upper perch to clear the MM CC plate. This is what I'm left with at 26" ride height.. Would like to get down to 25" or so.. Car also has x2 balljoints without the spacer.

0802161758 (1) by Matt Whidden, on Flickr


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post #11 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 08:25 PM
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Mr. Whidden,

The stock ride height for your car is 28.8". If you run the car at a ride height of 25", then it is lowered 3.8" from stock ride height. To not be mostly compressing the bumpstop at this ride height, you will need to make changes to other parts to account for this.

In your case, the best option is to use Koni struts for a Fox Mustang. These have a compressed length which is 1.02" shorter than the struts that you currently have.

Koni Single-Adjustable Strut, 1987-93 V8 Mustang

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post #12 of 16 Old 08-02-2016, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
Mr. Whidden,

The stock ride height for your car is 28.8". If you run the car at a ride height of 25", then it is lowered 3.8" from stock ride height. To not be mostly compressing the bumpstop at this ride height, you will need to make changes to other parts to account for this.

In your case, the best option is to use Koni struts for a Fox Mustang. These have a compressed length which is 1.02" shorter than the struts that you currently have.

Koni Single-Adjustable Strut, 1987-93 V8 Mustang
AHA!! I kinda thought that may be the answer lol

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post #13 of 16 Old 08-05-2016, 01:47 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help Jack. The question of running fox struts crossed my mind when ordering the Coilovers but I forgot to ask, and it was easy to forget because I already had the Koni's from last fall.. I lucked out and my dealer in town happened to have ordered my exact setup for a fox for another friend of ours, so I was able to grab his struts and order another set to replace them. I can see why people run them now, as not only are they shorter, the mounting ears are moved up higher to move the spindle up. Since the car will be pretty low, I plan on regaining some geometry with your Tubular K and Control arms this fall. After I set everything up on the fox struts, everything went in just as I expected and I have plenty of bump travel and clearance now. Next time I'll still do Bilstein though.

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post #14 of 16 Old 08-05-2016, 08:49 PM
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Mr. Whidden,

Since we build our own strut housings for the MM struts, we offer them with two different ear heights. This adjusts the ratio of bump to droop travel for cars based on their static ride height. Bilstein struts do not have this housing option. Both the Bilstein and MM struts don't have any advantage in upper spring perch location compared to the Koni struts. In both cases, when the spacers at the top are properly adjusted, the upper spring perch will be the same distance from the bottom of the strut tower. Any advantage you get in terms of more bump travel is going to come from the difference in ear location or the overall length difference in the housing.

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post #15 of 16 Old 08-22-2016, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Mr. Whidden,

Since we build our own strut housings for the MM struts, we offer them with two different ear heights. This adjusts the ratio of bump to droop travel for cars based on their static ride height. Bilstein struts do not have this housing option. Both the Bilstein and MM struts don't have any advantage in upper spring perch location compared to the Koni struts. In both cases, when the spacers at the top are properly adjusted, the upper spring perch will be the same distance from the bottom of the strut tower. Any advantage you get in terms of more bump travel is going to come from the difference in ear location or the overall length difference in the housing.
Thank you very much for the help. I got everything installed front and rear. I did have to use 1/4" MM spacers to clear the front springs with my 9.5" Chicanes. Was able to drive the car about 20 miles before my brand new Vortech ate a bearing
My dad was with me whom owns a 2016 Track Pack GT and he was impressed with how well the car rode.
My next steps this fall will be the Tubular Front K and Arms, as well as the Torque Arm.

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post #16 of 16 Old 10-31-2016, 12:59 AM Thread Starter
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I've managed to put a little bit of street time on the car since install. The POS Vortech really held me back.
Now I'm trying to plan the next phase. The car rides and handles very nice. Ride quality is excellent, but it seems to unload while applying power in a corner. The stock trac-lok doesn't seem to have issues with only 40k on it, but the car wants to spin the inside tire badly on a long 270 degree on ramp. I will be installing 3.73's, 31 Spline Mosers, and a yet to be determined differential after the suspension is done.

So, I need help in determining rear spring rates and swaybar sizes for the Torque Arm and Adjustable rear swaybar. I feel the springs may even be on the soft side as they are 325/10" up front and 200/8" in back, so take that into consideration that I may go a hair stiffer in the future.

Also would like to hear your thoughts on front swaybar setup.

Phase 3 will be a tubular K.

Thank you in advance Mr. Hidley

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