Can stock Coyote take road racing? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 07-20-2016, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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Can stock Coyote take road racing?

I'm building a 89 GT road race car. Was planning on a dart 331 engine but now that the S550 has landed in europe I have another option. The Coyote. The Coyote 5.0 sure packs enough punch as it is in stock form but can it hold together in road race use?
I've googled hours on end what gives up at what psi or nitrous shot but still have no idea what can it take N/A in stock form. Redlining it on every lap. I value reliability even more than the absolute best performance.
If you could shed some light on this I'd really apreciate it.


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post #2 of 29 Old 07-20-2016, 09:08 PM
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In stock form it is very reliable. Much more reliable than a $10k pushrod engine.


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post #3 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 03:02 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you Jack. I guess the weak link is the pistons? According to european ford the new 2016 crate engines have "forged" but the pistons are cast.
Then I guess its the oil pump gears and the rods.
Are there any racing series in US that run stock coyotes?
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post #4 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 12:45 PM
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I've always read that it was the Oil Pump Gears that go at high horsepower levels so maybe similar for extended RPM. It never hurts to throw the billet gears in there for assurance. I was under the impression that all S550 mustangs came with forged pistons, so that shouldn't be an issue.

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post #5 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 01:37 PM
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I've always read that it was the Oil Pump Gears that go at high horsepower levels so maybe similar for extended RPM. It never hurts to throw the billet gears in there for assurance. I was under the impression that all S550 mustangs came with forged pistons, so that shouldn't be an issue.

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post #6 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 01:52 PM
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post #7 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 02:56 PM
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deep oil pan and a big oil cooler. Dry sump or an accusump to hold that extra oil too. No personal experience with those motors but do have track experience. Oil temps seem to be an easy thing people forget about.
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post #8 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 03:36 PM
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deep oil pan and a big oil cooler. Dry sump or an accusump to hold that extra oil too. No personal experience with those motors but do have track experience. Oil temps seem to be an easy thing people forget about.

I agree, i have no idea what my oil temps are, i just had this convo with a friend last night about how we are clueless to what temps the oil is seeing. We use our oil pressure gauge as a reference.

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post #9 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 03:59 PM
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As long as you don't increase the cylinder pressures significantly, there is no need for stronger pistons or rods.

Part of the forged versus nonforged confusion may be due to the lack of education in some circles. If the connecting rods are made of powdered metal, then they are forged. Forging is the name of the process that is used to compact the metal into the shape that you want.

The need for billet oil pump gears is in response to a modification done to the engine that is done poorly. The gears breaking has to do with bending loads on the snout of the crankshaft and/or torsional vibrations in the crankshaft that are way beyond what the engine was designed for. These are both caused by putting cantilevered loads out onto the end of a shaft that it was never designed for. Another possible source of this problem is using an aftermarket damper.

A Coyote engine does not need an Accusump or dry sump oil system. FRPP does make a very good oilpan that we have tested for this engine. I have no experience with other aftermarket oilpans for this engine.

Coyote engines are used in quite a few American Iron Mustang racecars. In stock form, they are an order of magnitude more reliable than a pushrod engine. They break when people start putting aftermarket parts on them. Not usually due to some increase in power, but due to inferior design of the parts. I purchased a $4k Dart aluminum engine block at full retail price. No industry buddy dealing was involved, so I expected to get something without surprises. It has required about $1k of machining to fix defects that would never have existed in a production Ford engine block.
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post #10 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Are you a fan of Kimi? One of my favorite drivers!
Huge fan! Kimi is my age and i dare (almost) a far relative of Kimi. Plus his a bif drinker so whats not to love! Not surprised he got another season in the Ferrari's seat.

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post #11 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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As long as you don't increase the cylinder pressures significantly, there is no need for stronger pistons or rods.

Part of the forged versus nonforged confusion may be due to the lack of education in some circles. If the connecting rods are made of powdered metal, then they are forged. Forging is the name of the process that is used to compact the metal into the shape that you want.

The need for billet oil pump gears is in response to a modification done to the engine that is done poorly. The gears breaking has to do with bending loads on the snout of the crankshaft and/or torsional vibrations in the crankshaft that are way beyond what the engine was designed for. These are both caused by putting cantilevered loads out onto the end of a shaft that it was never designed for. Another possible source of this problem is using an aftermarket damper.

A Coyote engine does not need an Accusump or dry sump oil system. FRPP does make a very good oilpan that we have tested for this engine. I have no experience with other aftermarket oilpans for this engine.

Coyote engines are used in quite a few American Iron Mustang racecars. In stock form, they are an order of magnitude more reliable than a pushrod engine. They break when people start putting aftermarket parts on them. Not usually due to some increase in power, but due to inferior design of the parts. I purchased a $4k Dart aluminum engine block at full retail price. No industry buddy dealing was involved, so I expected to get something without surprises. It has required about $1k of machining to fix defects that would never have existed in a production Ford engine block.
Again, thanks. This helped me alot. Inwas told by a Ford racing Chat representitive to buy a better sump and keep it under 7000rpm's and there should be no issues. Thats like easiest race engine ever!!
And believe me I've had my share of engine failures. But they were all european four bangers. Ford though.
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post #12 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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post #13 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Any recommendations on intake manifold?
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post #14 of 29 Old 07-21-2016, 05:27 PM
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I would add an oil cooler as long it is a model that incorporates a thermostat.

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post #15 of 29 Old 07-24-2016, 07:26 AM
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What about the crate Aluminator engine? I know it is significantly more expensive but pushing over 500 hp is nice. Is it more for drag racing or is it something that can be used out of the box for road racing as well?

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post #16 of 29 Old 07-24-2016, 02:41 PM
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You could use that engine for road racing, but it would be far from the best choice. See the dyno curve linked below.

https://2fe66ead98a9d8367e69-183c3b2...-dyno_9868.jpg

To get maximum acceleration from any given engine, it need to be used in the operating range that delivers the maximum average power to the drive tires in any given gear. To determine what the shift rpms need to be to do this, you need to look at the gear ratios in the transmission. In a typical close ratio street 5-speed, the engine is going to cover a range of 3,000rpm in the lower and mid gears. If you use an 8,000rpm limit for this engine, that means that the engine will be run from 5,000 to 8,000 rpm. The average power (integration of the power curve from 5-8krpm) is going to be somewhere around 425hp. If you could extend the engines rpm limit up to 8,000 rpm, then the engine could be run from 5,500 to 8,500 rpm. The average power in this case, would then be around 435hp.

One of the points of this is that to get maximum acceleration out of any given engine, it must be revved quite a bit past its peak power rpm. How far past is a function of the shape of the power curve.

If you were to take this engine and install an intake manifold with longer runners and reduce the camshaft duration, it would make more peak power at a lower rpm, and as a result have more average power from 5-8krpm. This would result in more acceleration and better engine life. It is really geared towards drag racing. It really makes no sense to use it in an application where it is shifted at 8krpm or lower.
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post #17 of 29 Old 07-24-2016, 03:06 PM
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I kind of thought so but had to ask. That is definitely a drag racing curve. Thanks for the information. I have not been paying too much attention to anything but push rod stuff for the most part. Just what I am familiar with I guess.
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post #18 of 29 Old 07-25-2016, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscortSportage View Post
I agree, i have no idea what my oil temps are, i just had this convo with a friend last night about how we are clueless to what temps the oil is seeing. We use our oil pressure gauge as a reference.
To ram it home this is what happened to me, I only have dummy stock gauges and this is the result. For any type of spirited driving it's a must.




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post #19 of 29 Old 07-25-2016, 05:06 PM
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So I did a quick search and found a Mishomito (spelling?) oil cooler for Fox Mustangs. Does anyone recommend this or is there another that works better? I would be looking for something with the gauge and all. Thanks.
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post #20 of 29 Old 07-25-2016, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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I guess any oil to air cooler will do. Just pic a sandwich plate that has provision for a heat sensor. As stated above it would be wise to run oil thermostat with the cooler.
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post #21 of 29 Old 08-04-2016, 09:38 AM
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The need for billet oil pump gears is in response to a modification done to the engine that is done poorly. The gears breaking has to do with bending loads on the snout of the crankshaft and/or torsional vibrations in the crankshaft that are way beyond what the engine was designed for. These are both caused by putting cantilevered loads out onto the end of a shaft that it was never designed for. Another possible source of this problem is using an aftermarket damper.
To go along with that, when I see guys using a solid billet aluminum damper/pulley, it makes me cringe. The ATI dampers seem to work quite well, though these are mostly in I4, I6 and H4 configurations.

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post #22 of 29 Old 08-07-2016, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I'll get to know the answer to the original question eventually. I'm now quite committed.
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post #23 of 29 Old 08-08-2016, 01:06 PM
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I guess I'll get to know the answer to the original question eventually. I'm now quite committed.
I am in the same boat as you, but I went F150 used motor. I am going to run a leak down test, check out the cylinder walls via camera and then find an oil pan that works with the MM K-Member and oil cooler and do a TKO600.

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post #24 of 29 Old 08-08-2016, 03:54 PM
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I can't help but think it'd probably worth it to upgrade the valve springs.

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post #25 of 29 Old 08-08-2016, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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I am in the same boat as you, but I went F150 used motor. I am going to run a leak down test, check out the cylinder walls via camera and then find an oil pan that works with the MM K-Member and oil cooler and do a TKO600.
I got a Moroso aluminium oil pan, Haltec ECU and a TKO to acompany the engine.
Planing on mating the oe loom to the Haltech and keep a close eye on the oil temp to help me decide wheter actual oil cooler is needed. Its not very hot around here and our races are quite short so I reckon the larger oil capacaty, alu pan and OE cooler will do the job keeping the oil cool enough.

Any ideas on the oil to use? Ford recommends 5W20 but theyre not thinking of racing are they?
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post #26 of 29 Old 08-10-2016, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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I can't help but think it'd probably worth it to upgrade the valve springs.
That thought did cross my mind. Then I realised the Coyote has modern hollow cams wit the press on / heat fitted lobes. At work I've found that these types of cams do not like additional stress. On my cases the stresses we're extreme though. The timing belt lost its teeth and the valves hit the pistons. The lobes had actually broken free and rotated on the shaft. Valves were straight. So it takes less effort to rotate the lobe than to bend a 6mm valve. This is all just speculation but I choose to stay within the OE rev limiter and keep the OE springs. When its time for more cam I'll do pistons, rods and springs as well.
Again just my thoughts not based on hard facts on the coyote engine.
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post #27 of 29 Old 08-10-2016, 10:50 PM
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No no, I don't blame you, I forgot that the modular motors use hydroformed cams. Most of the motors I work on get aftermarket cams, I rarely see OEM stuff.

The engineering is scary on some of these newer cars. I did a Cayenne motor last year that used diamond faced washers to keep the cam gear locked in phase with the cam. No positive dowels, just the washer and a ####load of torque. Sure, makes factory assembly easier, but man oh man.
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post #28 of 29 Old 08-11-2016, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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No no, I don't blame you, I forgot that the modular motors use hydroformed cams. Most of the motors I work on get aftermarket cams, I rarely see OEM stuff.

The engineering is scary on some of these newer cars. I did a Cayenne motor last year that used diamond faced washers to keep the cam gear locked in phase with the cam. No positive dowels, just the washer and a ####load of torque. Sure, makes factory assembly easier, but man oh man.
Seems to be the on going trend on Ford engines. On the four-bangers anyway.

I raced a Ford 1.6 16v engine prior to this fox body project. It had no key ways on cams nor crank. Relying only on the clamping force of the bolt. The Ecoboosts are the same. and the Duratec HE 2.0 16v.
I did not have the heart to go 9000RPM without any added security, so I had dowels and key ways machined.

Around here the "loose lobe" desing cams seems to be on the Diesel engines. They are light though.
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post #29 of 29 Old 08-14-2016, 02:59 AM Thread Starter
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As regards to the valve springs I stumbled upon some interresting facts about the differences between the gen 1 and 2 engines. The Gen2 uses Boss302R valve spring which are stiffer than regular Coyote springs. Thay can also be used in gen1
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File Type: pdf Gen_2_Coyote_Technical_Reference_2-16.pdf (973.5 KB, 12 views)
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