Ideal horsepower and torque for road racing - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 130 Old 06-06-2016, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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Ideal horsepower and torque for road racing

I have been thinking about this lately. I have seen GTR's with turbo charged engines anywhere from 500 hp all the way up to 800 hp AWD, Vettes with 5 to 600 hp, Vipers with gobs of power, ect.. It got me thinking, what would be a good hp/torque number for most cars running at the road races? At some point, you could have too much power and be breaking the tires out of corners on acceleration, not enough brake in corners, ect.. I am sure it is going to depend on class but lets say a car like mine, street driven, full Griggs suspension, manual TKO 600, Baer brakes all around and weighs 3240lbs. Or you could use your own car, just state mods and why you feel that particular power number is best for you.

I would guess around 600 hp and 550 ft lbs torque or so to get around most everything on the track in a lot of the classes. Thoughts?

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post #2 of 130 Old 06-06-2016, 03:50 PM
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How big of a tire do we get? I think your 600HP guess is in the park with a good r comp 305/35-17 or similar sized tire. A 13 inch 4 piston brake set up in front would be nice.

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post #3 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 12:23 AM
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No such number exist. Different for every car. A Miata would have a different sweet spot compared to a mustang not even including year specific.
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post #4 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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How big of a tire do we get? I think your 600HP guess is in the park with a good r comp 305/35-17 or similar sized tire. A 13 inch 4 piston brake set up in front would be nice.
Your decision Curt. Just explain why you feel that number is right.
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post #5 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 09:45 AM
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are you racing in a specific class or time trial group. those have a power/weight ratio to base classes on. see below.

if you are just doing HPDE track days. i got around just fine with a 3750 lb car including driver with 420 whp. which only ocasionally a vette or something would pass me
really depends on the weight of the car for the amount of HP you want.

for time trials
Time Trial 1 (TT1) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than 5.50:1
Time Trial 2 (TT2) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than 8.00:1
Time Trial 3 (TT3) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than 10.00:1

or american iron has the following
The “American Iron” (AI) class has a strict 9.5:1 (9.5 pounds of vehicle weight per each horsepower) power to weight ratio maximum and 9:1 (9 pounds of vehicle weight per each foot-pound) torque to weight ratio maximum as measured at the rear wheels. All vehicles that compete in this class may have less than the specified amount but may not exceed the 9.5:1 and 9:1 HP & TQ ratios, unless specified in the Table 6.1 below, . Vehicles that exceed these ratios must race in the American Iron Extreme (AIX) class (Section 6.2). The absolute minimum weight for a V8 (and larger) powered AI car is 2700 pounds with driver. The absolute minimum weight for 4 or 6 cylinder powered AI cars is 2400 pounds with driver.
NOTE – See Section 7.8 (Brakes) for power rating adjustments per the following table
Table 6.1
ABS TYPE
POWER LEVEL
None
9.00:1 HP / 8.50:1 TQ ratio
Any OEM ABS (except 2005+ Ford)
9.25:1 HP / 8.75:1 TQ ratio
2005+ Ford ABS Only
9.50:1 HP / 9.00:1 TQ ratio
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post #6 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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02 roush stage 3,

Based on those formulas you posted, I am sitting right around 9.2 or so.

I guess I was originally talking about Track Night stuff though I mentioned classes. I am a newbie, I admit it. I realize it is a pretty general question. I guess I am just kind of getting educated on what others think based on personal experiences. If I were to have an engine built or power adder added to my current 347, NA or power adder, the sky is the limit on power so what would someone shoot for based on their combination, driving on the street and what they have experienced racing their car? Mike Post asked me this when he tuned my car and said a blower would work great on my car for streetability and racing...how much power do you want? It got me thinking.

Is 600 hp and 550 torque too much, not enough or just right? For me and my combination mentioned, I am thinking that would be just about right for Track Nights and to run with the group and have fun, but still be streetable.
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post #7 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 02:30 PM
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Can you spin the tires from corner to corner? No? Can still use more power.
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post #8 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 03:19 PM
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Can you spin the tires from corner to corner? No? Can still use more power.
...or larger/stickier tires
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post #9 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ERStettin View Post
I guess I was originally talking about Track Night stuff though I mentioned classes. I am a newbie, I admit it. I realize it is a pretty general question. I guess I am just kind of getting educated on what others think based on personal experiences. If I were to have an engine built or power adder added to my current 347, NA or power adder, the sky is the limit on power so what would someone shoot for based on their combination, driving on the street and what they have experienced racing their car? Mike Post asked me this when he tuned my car and said a blower would work great on my car for streetability and racing...how much power do you want? It got me thinking.

Is 600 hp and 550 torque too much, not enough or just right? For me and my combination mentioned, I am thinking that would be just about right for Track Nights and to run with the group and have fun, but still be streetable.
What you should do is spend your money and effort on seat time and learn how to drive. How many track days have you done, and be honest.

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post #10 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ERStettin View Post
I guess I was originally talking about Track Night stuff though I mentioned classes. I am a newbie, I admit it. I realize it is a pretty general question. I guess I am just kind of getting educated on what others think based on personal experiences. If I were to have an engine built or power adder added to my current 347, NA or power adder, the sky is the limit on power so what would someone shoot for based on their combination, driving on the street and what they have experienced racing their car? Mike Post asked me this when he tuned my car and said a blower would work great on my car for streetability and racing...how much power do you want? It got me thinking.

Is 600 hp and 550 torque too much, not enough or just right? For me and my combination mentioned, I am thinking that would be just about right for Track Nights and to run with the group and have fun, but still be streetable.
Your a newbie, and you want to race a 600hp mustang... Stop

go get on the track with the current engine setup, it will open your eyes.


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post #11 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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What you should do is spend your money and effort on seat time and learn how to drive. How many track days have you done, and be honest.
I just did my first one on 24 May and loved it. And why do you think I would lie about it?

I do plan on spending more time and money on track time but I work overseas 8 months or so a year, it is hard to make that happen. I am signed up for another when I get back home in August and will try and make another up at Road America as well, so that should be three this year before the snow flys; unless I can find others when I am home.

I have a plan about where I want to be with this car and my capabilities eventually and am educating myself with the help of others that I hope have answers and can help. Seat time and more power are my goals this year.
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post #12 of 130 Old 06-07-2016, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Your a newbie, and you want to race a 600hp mustang... Stop

go get on the track with the current engine setup, it will open your eyes.
LOL, this made me laugh. Thanks.

I am pretty sure you are the one that said my car is going to scare the crap out of me the first time I take it to the track? It didn't, it made me want more. You are correct, it did open my eyes and it showed me I want more power. The car handles and brakes very well, but on the straights, I could not catch and pass one of the turbo BMW's and that is where I am allowed, at this level, to pass them at Blackhawk Farms.....so I am going to get more power and am looking for that happy medium. Not sure what model it was but he said he had a turbo on it. I also want a faster accelerating car out of corners, so I am thinking I need more lower rpm torque. Wrong?

Also, after every session the SCCA guy took all us novices aside and talked with us to help educate us. It was AWESOME! One of the things he stated was one of the ways you get better, is by pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I never felt uncomfortable out there or scared. I actually thought it was boring at times when I had to drive slower due to cars ahead of me that I could not legally pass due to the rules. However, when I pulled in behind a turbo BMW to get seperation from them and started running with this guy (he had track time but it was 10 years ago and he was just getting back in it), it really opened my eyes to my car, my inabilities and what I think I need to improve myself as a driver and my car. I hung with him but in the straights he kind of pulled me a bit until I got up to speed, then I closed the gap, but could never get enough speed to pass him.

Another thing that night that was cool was when I spun out chasing that BMW. I was pushing my limits and know it, and I learned. I was black flagged and the SCCA guy asked me with a smile, what I thought I did wrong, I told him I took that corner to fast, trying to catch the BMW. He said, "Yes" and laughed and left it at that. I thought that was pretty cool. Nothing negative from him, just wanted to make sure I realized my mistake and left it there.

I am happy with my cars handling and braking but want more power to pass the turbo BMW's on the straights. Thus a thread like this.
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post #13 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 12:38 AM Thread Starter
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Can you spin the tires from corner to corner? No? Can still use more power.
I like the way you think Ross.
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post #14 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 08:21 AM
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LOL, this made me laugh. Thanks.

I am pretty sure you are the one that said my car is going to scare the crap out of me the first time I take it to the track? It didn't, it made me want more. You are correct, it did open my eyes and it showed me I want more power. The car handles and brakes very well, but on the straights, the turbo BMW's were hard to catch and that is where I am allowed, at this level, to pass them at Blackhawk Farms.....so I am going to get more power and am looking for that happy medium. I also want a faster accelerating car out of corners, so I am thinking I need more lower rpm torque. Wrong?

Also, after every session the SCCA guy took all us novices aside and talked with us to help educate us. It was AWESOME! One of the things he stated was one of the ways you get better, is by pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I never felt uncomfortable out there or scared. I actually thought it was boring at times when I had to drive slower due to cars ahead of me that I could not legally pass due to the rules. However, when I pulled in behind a turbo BMW to get seperation from them and started running with this guy (he had track time but it was 10 years ago and he was just getting back in it), it really opened my eyes to my car, my inabilities and what I think I need to improve myself as a driver and my car. I hung with him but in the straights he kind of pulled me a bit until I got up to speed, then I closed the gap, but could never get enough speed to pass him.

Another thing that night that was cool was when I spun out chasing that BMW. I was pushing my limits and know it, and I learned. I was black flagged and the SCCA guy asked me with a smile, what I thought I did wrong, I told him I took that corner to fast, trying to catch the BMW. He said, "Yes" and laughed and left it at that. I thought that was pretty cool. Nothing negative from him, just wanted to make sure I realized my mistake and left it there.

I am happy with my cars handling and braking but want more power to pass the turbo BMW's on the straights. Thus a thread like this.
If you can drive a 600 hp car to its limit then you are in the wrong career and need to go get a job with a professional race team.

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post #15 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Right now I am enjoying running my car on a road course and learning as I go. No one has talked about these 'limits' and no one mentioned it at the track night in our debriefs. What was mentioned by the professionals that were there (assuming they were professionals) was to drive beyond my comfort zone, what lines to work on driving, when to brake, ect., to help become a better driver and run quicker around the track. Not sure what all that entails yet but I did push it to my current limits and actually ended up spinning out.

Are you driving your car to it's limits?
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post #16 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 10:30 AM
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Focus on your road course skills before you make big investment in HP; Higher HP in road racing equates to higher likelihood something will break and more dollars to keep it running. After running few years in NASA American Iron, I made switch to NASA Spec Iron Class - 2005-2010 Mustang GT's with stock motor (only engine mods allowed is Ford Racing CAI and Ford Racing tune). The class is a blast - My HP is in low 280's and TQ in low 290's.
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post #17 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 10:47 AM
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Hate to say it, but I see an unfortunate case of Group 2 Syndrome in the not very distant future.

You want to know what the world's most effective power adder is?

Corner exit speed. Think on that a while.



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post #18 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 01:07 PM
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500-600hp cars are rare when it comes to actual race cars the average guy races on track but "enthusiast" always seem to think more power is what makes them faster. Someone posted the American Iron Specs, another driver runs Spec Iron which has less HP and less other "mods" as well. I race in CMC (Camaro Mustang Challenge) which is an older class with a little less HP than the other classes mentioned above. We're allowed 260HP and must be over 3,150 lbs in an SN95 (other cars have slightly different weights).

I started DE weekends in a modified SRT8 and had a blast. I could blow by nearly everyone on the straights. I too was looking into making the car even faster still when I realized W2W racing was what I wanted to do. I went from a 400rwhp car to a 260rwhp car and have dropped my lap times by 5-10%. I'm running mere inches (or closer) to other cars as we compete for position. For me, I'm in a car that cost roughly $7,500 and don't sweat it if the thing gets a scratch or dent. Plus, the car has a full cage and all the safety gear so I'm willing to push the car even a little bit more. While the other classes mentioned above are faster than I am, Spec Iron cars cost 2X-3X what I spent on my car and American Iron cars can be 3X to 10X what I spent.....and only run 2-5 seconds a lap faster than i do.

The reality is running with cars of similar capabilities is actually what you're craving (it took me awhile to realize it too). These cars could all have Briggs & Stratton engines but if they are all the same, it's FUN! You say your getting "pulled" in the straights but see if you could actually get on the gas a little sooner to make up the difference? Enthusiast rarely look at the cheapest/easiest way to make their cars faster........improved driver training/skill!

Good Luck....have fun!

EDIT: I just noticed the post above was editted while I was typing......and says the same thing I mention in the end!
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post #19 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 01:31 PM
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A month or so ago, I was able to hang within 1 second with of a pair of camaros on a 2.1 mile road cours, one a 2016 Z28, and another a 2016 ZL1. How the hell can a 275 RWHP 3450-lb foxbody on 235-width R-comps hang with these 500-700 hp monsters with huge tires and brakes? Corner exit speed. Slower in means later apex means straighter exit means earlier on the gas means a mph advantage all the way down the straight.
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post #20 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 01:44 PM
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Ideal horsepower would be as much as you can handle and for me, the answer would be "tons."

Why do the open track guys wimp out on power when the drag race guys get to play with tons of power??

The FR500GT with a mere 550 HP is a nice place to start


And forget about nonsense such as "upgraded brake lines and pads." At the higher end of the power scale, 14 inch rotors and fixed multi piston caliper brakes are a bare minimum requirement.

For the crazy HP junkie, Ferrari has s show up and drive program where you can get behind the wheel of 800+ HP V10 F1 car. This one is my bucket list for sure.


One more example of crazy open track power under the "too much is never enough" department is an Australian enthusiast who open tracks a Holden sedan with 1200 HP 727 cubic inch motor!!!

http://www.australiastoughestcars.co...n-hsv-1200-hp/
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post #21 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 01:49 PM
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Right now I am enjoying running my car on a road course and learning as I go. No one has talked about these 'limits' and no one mentioned it at the track night in our debriefs. What was mentioned by the professionals that were there (assuming they were professionals) was to drive beyond my comfort zone, what lines to work on driving, when to brake, ect., to help become a better driver and run quicker around the track. Not sure what all that entails yet but I did push it to my current limits and actually ended up spinning out.

Are you driving your car to it's limits?
In some places yes and in others no. The point is that I don't need more power to improve lap times I need more practice. My brother got in my car which he had never driven, on a track that he had never seen and within 3 laps was faster than me. Spend your money on seat time.
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post #22 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 03:31 PM
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i would tend to agree with most peoples comments on regards to seat time before tossing money at the car. will more power make you faster? yes probably but only on straight away speed.

for example, several years ago when i first started tracking my Roush- which makes 420whp i went to Watkins Glen with a few buddies for a HPDE. another one of my friends has a 2000 mustang, just has headers, intake, exhaust for power adders. doesnt even have coiloverss on it. so hes probably got a good 150whp less than i did. so you would think id have some blistering lap times because of that right? wrong. if i recall he ran a 2:16 or 2:18 lap that weekend, which was or was close to the track record there for the CMC class if i remember correctly. i think my best that weekend was a 2:21. but the difference was, he probably had a good 15-20 events under his belt vs my 2 or 3.

fast forward a few years. same car i now run 2:10 at the Glen. still with the same Horsepower and DOT type tires, same suspension etc. seat time was the only improvement i made. nothing to do with the car.

a car with less horespower will teach you how to carry more corner speed, both in and out of the corner. because you are trying to carry all that momentum so when you get back to straight away you arent struggling to get the car back up to speed. Ive owned a 94 acura integra for 12 years and could probably wheel the #### out of that thing at the track with good tires and brake pads, why because im so comfortable driving it and know that absolute limit of the car.

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In some places yes and in others no. The point is that I don't need more power to improve lap times I need more practice. My brother got in my car which he had never driven, on a track that he had never seen and within 3 laps was faster than me. Spend your money on seat time.
Without going back to count, I believe I said I get the seat time thing at least 3 or 4 times in this thread. I think you missed the part where I said I was losing on the straights, that is where I should have been passing this guy (legally by the rules). That has little to do with driving other than maybe shifting quicker, it is a drag race then. That is what I am talking about.

I know learning the corners, braking and acceleration, lines, ect. will all help me lower my times around the track but so will power on the straights. I could not get enough power on this turbo BMW to pass him on the straights.
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i would tend to agree with most peoples comments on regards to seat time before tossing money at the car. will more power make you faster? yes probably but only on straight away speed.

for example, several years ago when i first started tracking my Roush- which makes 420whp i went to Watkins Glen with a few buddies for a HPDE. another one of my friends has a 2000 mustang, just has headers, intake, exhaust for power adders. doesnt even have coiloverss on it. so hes probably got a good 150whp less than i did. so you would think id have some blistering lap times because of that right? wrong. if i recall he ran a 2:16 or 2:18 lap that weekend, which was or was close to the track record there for the CMC class if i remember correctly. i think my best that weekend was a 2:21. but the difference was, he probably had a good 15-20 events under his belt vs my 2 or 3.

fast forward a few years. same car i now run 2:10 at the Glen. still with the same Horsepower and DOT type tires, same suspension etc. seat time was the only improvement i made. nothing to do with the car.

a car with less horespower will teach you how to carry more corner speed, both in and out of the corner. because you are trying to carry all that momentum so when you get back to straight away you arent struggling to get the car back up to speed. Ive owned a 94 acura integra for 12 years and could probably wheel the #### out of that thing at the track with good tires and brake pads, why because im so comfortable driving it and know that absolute limit of the car.

Mike
Thanks Mike, great replys on all accounts and I get that. I had replied to the other post before reading yours and totally understand your point on the straights. That is what I was talking about really. I had trouble catching and passing that guy on the straights and it had little to do with driving. Then it is a drag race and the power and shifting matter most. Regardless, I understand the seat time thing. I will be making every event I am home for at Blackhawk Farms and will be making it up to Road America and maybe Autobahn if they have something while I am home. I am hooked and want to get into this stuff as much as I did drag racing.
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Ideal horsepower would be as much as you can handle and for me, the answer would be "tons."

Why do the open track guys wimp out on power when the drag race guys get to play with tons of power??

The FR500GT with a mere 550 HP is a nice place to start


And forget about nonsense such as "upgraded brake lines and pads." At the higher end of the power scale, 14 inch rotors and fixed multi piston caliper brakes are a bare minimum requirement.

For the crazy HP junkie, Ferrari has s show up and drive program where you can get behind the wheel of 800+ HP V10 F1 car. This one is my bucket list for sure.


One more example of crazy open track power under the "too much is never enough" department is an Australian enthusiast who open tracks a Holden sedan with 1200 HP 727 cubic inch motor!!!

Gup?s 727ci Holden HSV ? 1200+ hp | ATC ? Australia's Toughest Cars
HELL YEAH!!!! Thanks man, I was starting to wonder if power was a bad thing on this forum......lol. Love it! Thanks.
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500-600hp cars are rare when it comes to actual race cars the average guy races on track but "enthusiast" always seem to think more power is what makes them faster. Someone posted the American Iron Specs, another driver runs Spec Iron which has less HP and less other "mods" as well. I race in CMC (Camaro Mustang Challenge) which is an older class with a little less HP than the other classes mentioned above. We're allowed 260HP and must be over 3,150 lbs in an SN95 (other cars have slightly different weights).

I started DE weekends in a modified SRT8 and had a blast. I could blow by nearly everyone on the straights. I too was looking into making the car even faster still when I realized W2W racing was what I wanted to do. I went from a 400rwhp car to a 260rwhp car and have dropped my lap times by 5-10%. I'm running mere inches (or closer) to other cars as we compete for position. For me, I'm in a car that cost roughly $7,500 and don't sweat it if the thing gets a scratch or dent. Plus, the car has a full cage and all the safety gear so I'm willing to push the car even a little bit more. While the other classes mentioned above are faster than I am, Spec Iron cars cost 2X-3X what I spent on my car and American Iron cars can be 3X to 10X what I spent.....and only run 2-5 seconds a lap faster than i do.

The reality is running with cars of similar capabilities is actually what you're craving (it took me awhile to realize it too). These cars could all have Briggs & Stratton engines but if they are all the same, it's FUN! You say your getting "pulled" in the straights but see if you could actually get on the gas a little sooner to make up the difference? Enthusiast rarely look at the cheapest/easiest way to make their cars faster........improved driver training/skill!

Good Luck....have fun!

EDIT: I just noticed the post above was editted while I was typing......and says the same thing I mention in the end!
Excellent post as well. You are right, I am craving that when I think about it. It was boring waiting for the straights to pass slower cars. I enjoyed the BMW the most. That was a challenge and that is what I really want. He beat me on the straights though. I was on the power as quick as I felt I could be coming out of the corner and even thought of down shifting and nailing it for a couple seconds to accelerate quicker but didn't want to spin out again. I will definitely work more on corners and acceleration out of them. Thanks.
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post #27 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hate to say it, but I see an unfortunate case of Group 2 Syndrome in the not very distant future.

You want to know what the world's most effective power adder is?

Corner exit speed. Think on that a while.



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Explain the group two syndrome, please?

It is readily apparent the fact I could not catch and pass this guy on the straights has gone over everyones head in this thread.....lol.
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post #28 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 04:15 PM
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What turbo BMW? It could beat you in a drag race? What tire, brakes and rear gear are you currently running? I understand what you are saying about hard to improve when in the straight. But, if you can enter the straight going faster via improved exit corner speed you will do better in the straight. I believe that is the point others are trying to make. Surely the BMW isn't a 10.75 second car? He beats you in the turns and you can't make the difference up in the straight - is that right? Welcome to road racing. It is addictive.

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post #29 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 04:26 PM
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Without going back to count, I believe I said I get the seat time thing at least 3 or 4 times in this thread. I think you missed the part where I said I was losing on the straights, that is where I should have been passing this guy (legally by the rules). That has little to do with driving other than maybe shifting quicker, it is a drag race then. That is what I am talking about.

I know learning the corners, braking and acceleration, lines, ect. will all help me lower my times around the track but so will power on the straights. I could not get enough power on this turbo BMW to pass him on the straights.
A good chassis and a good driver will trump horse power every time. I learned that early in my track day career when something like a Honda Civic would give me a spanking. Now I routinely out run cars that are way more capable than my car. They often come to look at my car and start asking about what I have done to it. Once I tell them the motor is stock they walk away scratching their heads. I don't need more hp or straight away speed because my lap times are seconds lower.
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post #30 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 04:33 PM
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Excellent post as well. You are right, I am craving that when I think about it. It was boring waiting for the straights to pass slower cars. I enjoyed the BMW the most. That was a challenge and that is what I really want. He beat me on the straights though. I was on the power as quick as I felt I could be coming out of the corner and even thought of down shifting and nailing it for a couple seconds to accelerate quicker but didn't want to spin out again. I will definitely work more on corners and acceleration out of them. Thanks.
I occasionally attend mustang/car club days so I can take passengers in my car. At 260rwhp trust me, I get the fact since EVERYONE has a higher HP street car and passes by me on the straights!
But I scare them coming through the corners. I literally 4 wheel slide the car, just a little, both going in and coming out of the corners. There is nothing left in the car and I have track records in my class to prove it!
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If racing is like sex.....why would you want it to only last 10 seconds. (road races last 25 to 45 minutes!)
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post #31 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ERStettin View Post
Without going back to count, I believe I said I get the seat time thing at least 3 or 4 times in this thread. I think you missed the part where I said I was losing on the straights, that is where I should have been passing this guy (legally by the rules). That has little to do with driving other than maybe shifting quicker, it is a drag race then. That is what I am talking about.

I know learning the corners, braking and acceleration, lines, ect. will all help me lower my times around the track but so will power on the straights. I could not get enough power on this turbo BMW to pass him on the straights.
It sounds like you're in a kind of defensive, hand-over-ears la la la la kind of position. Go ahead and add 200 hp to it, but be prepared to get pissed when you can't get around a guy in a 15-year old 328. This is the downside of track programs that don't offer quality in-car instruction.
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Last edited by MFE; 06-08-2016 at 08:46 PM.
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post #32 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ERStettin View Post
Explain the group two syndrome, please?

It is readily apparent the fact I could not catch and pass this guy on the straights has gone over everyones head in this thread.....lol.
Group 2 Syndrome is when new drivers get past their fear and nervousness and dial up the speed without having really learned wtf they're doing or what to do when SHTF. They get into group 2 and ball up the car. Speaking of going over heads, I guarantee you everybody in this thread heard you loud and clear about not being able to pass the guy on the straights. What's going over your head is that power probably won't solve it alone.
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post #33 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 05:37 PM
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I almost forgot about the high powered mustangs that you drive right off the used car lot or show room floor such as the 660hp GT500


The 2013 GT500 has it all: tons of power, huge brakes, great handling and plenty of oversized fluid coolers to keep temps under control.


Then there is the GT350 with over 526HP right off the showroom floor.

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post #34 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 06:08 PM
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Ed, here's a perfect example from that same event you were at. The camera car is an M3 convertible. At 7:45, he gets passed by a guy in a Z3 coupe. By rights, that M3 should be able to walk the Z3 in the straights, pretty much everywhere, but he can't. He can't even keep up. Why is that? Compare their lines.

The M3 driver is turning in way too early, apexing too early, running out of track on the exit, which is delaying his throttle application, while the Z3 disappears down the straight. The Z3 driver is turning in later, apexing later, getting his turning done earlier, getting the steering unwound earlier, and getting on the gas way earlier. Consequently, he's leaving the M3 in his dust.

The Z3 may be in novice group but he's driving like he's done this before. The M3 driver is exhibiting the #2 problem that plagues many drivers their entire driving career...turning in and apexing too early. (The #1 problem is not looking far enough ahead of the car).

People who never get in-car instruction, or dismiss it as unecessary in their attempt to solo as soon and as much as possible, can go their whole lives driving like M3 guy and never know any better. They'll pour money into suspension and power mods, give up, blame the car, buy a more capable one, still drive it below its potential.

Other guys have people teach them how to do it the right way, spend their time perfecting their approach and their car control skills, and laugh their asses off when they get asked what kind of power adder they have on their N/A cars.

http://youtu.be/XhXbvUpIAj0?t=7m45s
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post #35 of 130 Old 06-08-2016, 08:59 PM
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Ed, here's a perfect example from that same event you were at. The camera car is an M3 convertible. At 7:45, he gets passed by a guy in a Z3 coupe. By rights, that M3 should be able to walk the Z3 in the straights, pretty much everywhere, but he can't. He can't even keep up. Why is that? Compare their lines.

The M3 driver is turning in way too early, apexing too early, running out of track on the exit, which is delaying his throttle application, while the Z3 disappears down the straight. The Z3 driver is turning in later, apexing later, getting his turning done earlier, getting the steering unwound earlier, and getting on the gas way earlier. Consequently, he's leaving the M3 in his dust.

The Z3 may be in novice group but he's driving like he's done this before. The M3 driver is exhibiting the #2 problem that plagues many drivers their entire driving career...turning in and apexing too early. (The #1 problem is not looking far enough ahead of the car).

People who never get in-car instruction, or dismiss it as unecessary in their attempt to solo as soon and as much as possible, can go their whole lives driving like M3 guy and never know any better. They'll pour money into suspension and power mods, give up, blame the car, buy a more capable one, still drive it below its potential.

Other guys have people teach them how to do it the right way, spend their time perfecting their approach and their car control skills, and laugh their asses off when they get asked what kind of power adder they have on their N/A cars.

http://youtu.be/XhXbvUpIAj0?t=7m45s
BINGO.........that guy couldn't even keep up with the honda that starts off in front of him. He might be having a blast....but he sucks as a driver. Your point about instruction is spot on. I remember being dead set on getting far enough along to not require an instructor any longer........then after 2-3 events wishing I had one back in the car. Hell, I own track records and still ask instructors to see if they will watch my videos and offer advice.

To the OP: Can you PLEASE get some in car video to post. The more experienced guys here are more than happy to help you get faster.

If racing is like sex.....why would you want it to only last 10 seconds. (road races last 25 to 45 minutes!)
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