Bump Steer Kit Install and Setup/Calibration Cost - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 04-24-2016, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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Bump Steer Kit Install and Setup/Calibration Cost

Anyone have a kit installed and setup/calibrated? How long did take? What was the labor cost?

I realize I could simply swap the existing tie rods ends for the kit and eyeball it but I think that defeats the purpose here as super fine adjustments can make a huge difference in the end result.

From reading different articles etc. this seems to be beyond what I want to learn how do "the right way" on my car without someone to guide me through it. And, being that I'm not a race car tech I see no reason to buy any tools to do this.


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post #2 of 27 Old 04-24-2016, 09:19 PM
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Think in the $200+ range. Buy the MM kit and learn. Good skill to have.

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post #3 of 27 Old 05-03-2016, 10:38 PM
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I bought the MM kit and used a Saturday morning to do adjust my rear (IRS). I doubt most shops would know how to do it right or be willing to do it. Unless there is a shop close to you that does a lot of work on road course cars I would do it yourself.

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post #4 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 08:06 AM
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Anyone have a kit installed and setup/calibrated? How long did take? What was the labor cost?

I realize I could simply swap the existing tie rods ends for the kit and eyeball it but I think that defeats the purpose here as super fine adjustments can make a huge difference in the end result.

From reading different articles etc. this seems to be beyond what I want to learn how do "the right way" on my car without someone to guide me through it. And, being that I'm not a race car tech I see no reason to buy any tools to do this.
I have to ask. Why do you think you need a bs kit?

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post #5 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 09:31 AM
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I have a 66 Mustang with a pretty heavily modified front suspension including 72 spindles that have slightly different geometry. I have Baer in mine. This is a street car and I'm by no means an expert but I do my own all my own work including alignments. Bump steer is a big problem on these cars once you start doing just about anything. On the vintage board I hang out on the thoughts is, how much you will tolerate. It's one thing going into a turn at 30 MPH and another at 130 MPH.

I started building a bump steer gauge with electrical 1.5x1.5 unistrut with floor flanges and 2 HF dial indicators. I still need to find a suitable flat plate for the hub to measure off. But do to the lack of time and what everyone says in the vintage community, don't waste your time measuring, just slap all the spacers in because you're going to need them all. That's basically what I ended up doing. How I was testing what works was the crest in the road in front of my neighbor's house. The speed limit is 35. I just kept driving over it until there were no noticeable problems which ended up putting all the shims in. Not very scientific or professional but it drives fine.

What some of the guys do to check bumpsteer on the same forum is to park the car up close to the garage walk. Block the body at ride height, remove the wheel and spring and mount a laser level on the hub. With the hub at normal ride height, turn the laser on and the dot on the wall they draw a vertical line on the wall. Now they cycle the suspension up and down and adjust the bump steer to keep the laser dot close to the line on the wall. You also have to keep in mind is the camber curve but you get the idea.

End of the day you have to do what's practical and cost effective for you. On my alignments, I never did one before. My car drives great. I believe I have both sides within 1/8° as far as camber and caster is exactly the same. I would love to have a professional check it out just to see if I did as good as I think. But that would entail me spending money for something I already did, so it's not going to happen.

Tom

I cut it 3 times...and it's still too short!
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post #6 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input everyone.

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Originally Posted by j rick kirby View Post
I have to ask. Why do you think you need a bs kit?
The car has been lowered and now the tie rods are not parallel with the a arms. Doesn't even seem close to me.

I wanted to install offset rack bushings when I did the springs, etc. but AFAIK there are none available for my early k member rack mounting scheme. It's not the same as later cars; my car is an early '85 built a month or so before the more common design went into production.

I believe that leaves me with no option but to put a bump steer kit on the car.

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post #7 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 01:46 PM
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Thanks for the input everyone.



The car has been lowered and now the tie rods are not parallel with the a arms. Doesn't even seem close to me.

I wanted to install offset rack bushings when I did the springs, etc. but AFAIK there are none available for my early k member rack mounting scheme. It's not the same as later cars; my car is an early '85 built a month or so before the more common design went into production.

I believe that leaves me with no option but to put a bump steer kit on the car.
Just as I thought. Lowering does not automatically equal bump steer. You only need a bs kit if the car has bs. Does your car in fact have a bs problem? When you go down the road and hit a big bump does the car try to steer itself and run off the road?

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post #8 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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Yes. The car wants to steer itself or I seem to think it does.

All I know that since this car has been lowered it doesn't act the same as it did before. Maybe there is no issue with bump steer and the car is fine. Hopefully, the guys who are going to check the bump steer will tell me if something needs to be corrected or not and install the kit if it needs to be on there.

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post #9 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 06:13 PM
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Have you checked your alignment after lowering it? That will have an effect on toe. The wake up lesson I learned doing my car is if you're going to do modifications to your suspension you should know how to trouble shoot and know how to set up your car such as alignment. Not coming down on you at all just the lesson I learned. I was going to send my car out for alignment but half way through I had nightmares of either a shop refusing to do my car with the aftermarket parts or not have a clue on these older cars with double A arms using shims and totally phucking it up. I bought a caster/camber gauge. It was one of the best things I did! It helped me find a problem I didn't even know I had.

Another thing I found out with my car was that the tie rods ran out of travel and bound up before the suspension ran out of travel. This would cause a drastic change of toe.

This is my car






Tom

I cut it 3 times...and it's still too short!
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post #10 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Car was aligned pretty conservatively compared to specs that I have seen others recommend/post and it also has MM CC plates (which were on there before it was aligned).

From the printout:

Total toe was set up to be .37* with left at .18* and right at .19*.
Caster is left at 1.4* and right at 1.6*.
Camber is left at -.3* and right at -.2*.


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post #11 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 08:14 AM
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Car was aligned pretty conservatively compared to specs that I have seen others recommend/post and it also has MM CC plates (which were on there before it was aligned).

From the printout:

Total toe was set up to be .37* with left at .18* and right at .19*.
Caster is left at 1.4* and right at 1.6*.
Camber is left at -.3* and right at -.2*.
Is that toe in or out? Your caster is most definitely screwed up and would probably make the car feel darty and you have less than factory spec on the camber. I think I would start with a better alignment. A bs kit will only fix bs. Also many people confuse tramlining with bs. Tramlining is when the car wants to follow irregularities in the road and that is caused by the tires. Many do that when they get some wear on them. Bs is not a problem with most cars but some vendors really push the kits. By the way, which springs are you using?
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post #12 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Answers and a few other questions below.

Here is a question first. So, in y'all's opinion, hypothetically, if there was a bump steer issue with this car and it required only a small adjustment like .1"; Is that close enough to blow off and not bother with?

Toe is positive, in.

What makes the caster setting "screwed up"? .2* difference is too much variance there?

Factory spec for '85-'86 camber is -.75 to +.75; so does swapping to '87-'93 spindles change that? It's still within specs for every year Fox body from what I've seen.

The shop I've decided on has 3 different road race/autocross cars that they run. They said they have the correct jig/fixture to measure bump steer and they also have an alignment rack. I was also told an alignment will be done. As I said before hopefully they will tell me if something needs to be corrected or not and install the kit if it needs to be on there.

Tires are brand new. Nitto 555 245/45/17 on '93 Cobra reproduction wheels.

Springs/shocks/struts are the Tokico HPK211 kit. From what I've seen it's a street kit and I have a street car. FWIW it rides pretty nice. Doesn't make me feel like I made a bad choice.

When the car was lowered all the components in the front end were changed out. It now has new Motorsport stock replacement A-arms with stock bushings, new poly isolator's top and bottom and it got new tie rods (inner and outer) with a used '03 Cobra rack with the MM solid steering shaft for the application. Sway bar end link bushings were replaced and end links were shortened about 3/4" which I mentioned to the shop too and they said they would take a look at it and correct if needed. Sway bar bushings had maybe 2K miles on them prior.

Also has MM full length subs and jacking rails along the rocker pinch weld.

Just to fill in the blanks, the rear is all new also with MM lowers and a set of low mileage take off OE uppers. Bushings replaced with new OE replacement style in rear end housing. All sway bars are stock.

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post #13 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qikgts View Post
Answers and a few other questions below.

Here is a question first. So, in y'all's opinion, hypothetically, if there was a bump steer issue with this car and it required only a small adjustment like .1"; Is that close enough to blow off and not bother with?

Toe is positive, in.

What makes the caster setting "screwed up"? .2* difference is too much variance there?

Factory spec for '85-'86 camber is -.75 to +.75; so does swapping to '87-'93 spindles change that? It's still within specs for every year Fox body from what I've seen.

The shop I've decided on has 3 different road race/autocross cars that they run. They said they have the correct jig/fixture to measure bump steer and they also have an alignment rack. I was also told an alignment will be done. As I said before hopefully they will tell me if something needs to be corrected or not and install the kit if it needs to be on there.

Tires are brand new. Nitto 555 245/45/17 on '93 Cobra reproduction wheels.

Springs/shocks/struts are the Tokico HPK211 kit. From what I've seen it's a street kit and I have a street car. FWIW it rides pretty nice. Doesn't make me feel like I made a bad choice.

When the car was lowered all the components in the front end were changed out. It now has new Motorsport stock replacement A-arms with stock bushings, new poly isolator's top and bottom and it got new tie rods (inner and outer) with a used '03 Cobra rack with the MM solid steering shaft for the application. Sway bar end link bushings were replaced and end links were shortened about 3/4" which I mentioned to the shop too and they said they would take a look at it and correct if needed. Sway bar bushings had maybe 2K miles on them prior.

Also has MM full length subs and jacking rails along the rocker pinch weld.

Just to fill in the blanks, the rear is all new also with MM lowers and a set of low mileage take off OE uppers. Bushings replaced with new OE replacement style in rear end housing. All sway bars are stock.
1) You have less than 1/2 the camber that is called for. You never want positive. That's not a big deal but will likely wear out the outside edges of your tires pre-maturely.
2) Caster is how far the front wheels are stuck out in front, like a chopper. The more caster the straighter it tracks and the wheel tries to re-center itself after going around a corner. With very little caster like you have the car wants to dart back and forth. You really need 3 degrees minimum on up to 4 1/2 or so. Too much, like more than 5 or so can introduce bs. Have you ever driven a bicycle with the fork bent up under the bike or put on backwards? That's what too little caster feels like.

Since you have MM CC plates do this first before you take the car to the shop. Loosen the camber adjusting nuts and push the plates in about 1/4"-3/8" and tighten down. Now loosen the caster adjusting nuts and max it out on both sides by pushing the struts as close to the firewall as you can and tighten them down. Going from memory I think the torque spec is 26 ft/lbs. You will need to do this on jack stands to get the wheels off the ground. Now go drive it and report back your thoughts.

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post #14 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qikgts View Post
Answers and a few other questions below.

Here is a question first. So, in y'all's opinion, hypothetically, if there was a bump steer issue with this car and it required only a small adjustment like .1"; Is that close enough to blow off and not bother with?

Toe is positive, in.

What makes the caster setting "screwed up"? .2* difference is too much variance there?

Factory spec for '85-'86 camber is -.75 to +.75; so does swapping to '87-'93 spindles change that? It's still within specs for every year Fox body from what I've seen.

The shop I've decided on has 3 different road race/autocross cars that they run. They said they have the correct jig/fixture to measure bump steer and they also have an alignment rack. I was also told an alignment will be done. As I said before hopefully they will tell me if something needs to be corrected or not and install the kit if it needs to be on there.

Tires are brand new. Nitto 555 245/45/17 on '93 Cobra reproduction wheels.

Springs/shocks/struts are the Tokico HPK211 kit. From what I've seen it's a street kit and I have a street car. FWIW it rides pretty nice. Doesn't make me feel like I made a bad choice.

When the car was lowered all the components in the front end were changed out. It now has new Motorsport stock replacement A-arms with stock bushings, new poly isolator's top and bottom and it got new tie rods (inner and outer) with a used '03 Cobra rack with the MM solid steering shaft for the application. Sway bar end link bushings were replaced and end links were shortened about 3/4" which I mentioned to the shop too and they said they would take a look at it and correct if needed. Sway bar bushings had maybe 2K miles on them prior.

Also has MM full length subs and jacking rails along the rocker pinch weld.

Just to fill in the blanks, the rear is all new also with MM lowers and a set of low mileage take off OE uppers. Bushings replaced with new OE replacement style in rear end housing. All sway bars are stock.
1) You have less than 1/2 the camber that is called for. You never want positive. That's not a big deal but will likely wear out the outside edges of your tires pre-maturely.
2) Caster is how far the front wheels are stuck out in front, like a chopper. The more caster the straighter it tracks and the wheel tries to re-center itself after going around a corner. With very little caster like you have the car wants to dart back and forth. You really need 3 degrees minimum on up to 4 1/2 or so. Too much, like more than 5 or so can introduce bs. Have you ever driven a bicycle with the fork bent up under the bike or put on backwards? That's what too little caster feels like.

Since you have MM CC plates do this first before you take the car to the shop. Loosen the camber adjusting nuts and push the plates in about 1/4"-3/8" and tighten down. Now loosen the caster adjusting nuts and max it out on both sides by pushing the struts as close to the firewall as you can and tighten them down. Going from memory I think the torque spec is 26 ft/lbs. You will need to do this on jack stands to get the wheels off the ground. Now go drive it and report back your thoughts.

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post #15 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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No comment to my first question?

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post #16 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 12:57 PM
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No comment to my first question?
Small amount of difference in caster from side to side doesn't matter. Almost impossible to get perfect anyhow. The problem is that you have no where near enough. See my explanation in item #2 above.

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post #17 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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How about the question before that one? The one about bump steer...

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post #18 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 01:16 PM
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How about the question before that one? The one about bump steer...
Not convinced you have a bs problem. Do what I suggested first before you spend any money.

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post #19 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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The question is quoted below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by qikgts View Post
Here is a question first. So, in y'all's opinion, hypothetically, if there was a bump steer issue with this car and it required only a small adjustment like .1"; Is that close enough to blow off and not bother with?
Any thoughts?

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post #20 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
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The question is quoted below...



Any thoughts?
Hypothetically speaking I'm done trying to help you.

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post #21 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Peace out playa'!

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I have an 86 I've been playing with for going on 20 years. Currently all MM suspension. I do my own alignments; I have the tools except setting bump steer. I had bump steer set professionally because I didn't have the tools. I'll buy those tools before I do it again.

So, I have mine set at zero toe; camber is currently at -2.3*; caster at max allowed by the MM CC plates (will be measured soon). The above info has been provided by experienced members. Don't keep testing these guys. Either do what they suggest or don't.
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post #23 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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The car is going to get worked on by someone who lives, breathes and eats this stuff for a living. Hopefully I'm happy with it after that.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the specs it gets set it to are a perfect match to what y'all have suggested.

Experience is a funny thing though; some learn from it, some don't need it and others keep on doing the same old stuff even if it's wrong no matter what they've experienced...

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Obviously, that isn't you. On the other hand, I do and so do some of the others who have tried to help. Fact is you'll do what you want. So, why did you come here and ask for advice? Was it a test?
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post #25 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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What isn't me? And, you do what?

I never said anybody wasn't trying to help. I never said anyone was wrong or giving me bad advice or that I didn't intend on following it.

What's with a test anyway?

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post #26 of 27 Old 05-05-2016, 11:34 PM
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Most people wouldn't know a bumpsteer problem if it bit them in the ass. They wouldn't notice it til they were on a track, and they were finely tuned to its effect. What you would notice, and what most people think is bumpsteer but isn't, is tramlining. The car's desire to follow ruts in the road. Lots has been written here about it.
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post #27 of 27 Old 05-08-2016, 08:46 PM
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Different Fox Mustang years have different camber specifications. 1979-82 are supposed to be 0.25 degrees. 1983-86 are 0 degrees. 1987-89 are around -0.1 degrees. 1990-93 are -0.6 degrees. In reality you never want the camber positive or zero. You want it somewhat negative.

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