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post #1 of 40 Old 04-10-2016, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Fox body Big Brake Suggestions

I will have my coyote swapped fox finished within the month. The car has full MM suspension with 03-04 cobra brakes. On my 250hp pushrod set up, I would notice brake fade after pushing the car for 10-15 minutes. Mostly this car will be a street car, occasional drag strip and occasional HPD. I have a set of true forge 18x8.5" fronts coming in with a big brake cut out and a 18x10's coming for the rear... What would classify as too much brake on a fox? The car is going to make over 500rwhp N/A on pump gas. Any suggestions?


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post #2 of 40 Old 04-10-2016, 01:24 PM
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What kind of pads were you using?

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post #3 of 40 Old 04-10-2016, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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BTW, when I did the coyote swap I went with a hydroboost set up from Hydratech. Random note, the spindles are off a 98 cobra and it has stock fox length axles.

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post #4 of 40 Old 04-10-2016, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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What kind of pads were you using?
They are Hawk HPS pads.

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post #5 of 40 Old 04-10-2016, 03:22 PM
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If you run street pads in a track setting, you need to expect them not to work. As for "what's too much brake?" There is no such thing except what won't fit under the wheels. But there is a cost/benefit thing going on, and almost 100% of the time, once you've gone to at least the Cobra setup, nothing more than real track pads and some ducting wins it hands down. You can go 4-pot brembo calipers for a big improvement, you can get larger rotors all around for a big improvement, you can go two-piece rotors for a big improvement, and you're going to drop big dollars on every piece of it. If you do all that without first trying real pads with good fluid and some ducting, well....it's your money.
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post #6 of 40 Old 04-11-2016, 05:34 PM
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If you decide to go BBK (e.g., Brembo, Wilwood, StopTech, etc.), wait until your wheels arrive and then get the brake fit template from your selected brake vender to mmake certain they clear. I put StopTech ST 40s (4-piston) with 14" rotors on my 86. I have CCW 18x11s on all four. The StopTechs cleared easily but I'm not sure about a 6-piston or 15" rotor.
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post #7 of 40 Old 04-11-2016, 09:18 PM
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If you run street pads in a track setting, you need to expect them not to work. As for "what's too much brake?" There is no such thing except what won't fit under the wheels. But there is a cost/benefit thing going on, and almost 100% of the time, once you've gone to at least the Cobra setup, nothing more than real track pads and some ducting wins it hands down. You can go 4-pot brembo calipers for a big improvement, you can get larger rotors all around for a big improvement, you can go two-piece rotors for a big improvement, and you're going to drop big dollars on every piece of it. If you do all that without first trying real pads with good fluid and some ducting, well....it's your money.
This!
I road raced a SN95 with the cobra brakes and cooling ducts for several years without issue (and won a regional championship with them). I eventually went with stoptech ST40's and found I couldn't stop any better, just had pads that would last longer under race conditions. Brakes are a system of calipers, pads, and rotors. They are only going to work as well as the weakest component and HPS pads (and probably fluid) were the weak link.

If racing is like sex.....why would you want it to only last 10 seconds. (road races last 25 to 45 minutes!)
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post #8 of 40 Old 04-11-2016, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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Well hmm... What pads/fluid do you guys recommend?

1993 Coyote Swap Coupe.

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post #9 of 40 Old 04-11-2016, 11:50 PM
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Motul 600 is DOT4 with the highest wet boiling point for the money and has never let me down. Raybestos ST47 pads work great and seem to last forever, without destroying rotors. I was a longtime Carbotech fan and they have nothing on the ST47's, which are also cheaper.
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post #10 of 40 Old 04-12-2016, 12:40 AM
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Motul 600 is DOT4 with the highest wet boiling point for the money and has never let me down. Raybestos ST47 pads work great and seem to last forever, without destroying rotors. I was a longtime Carbotech fan and they have nothing on the ST47's, which are also cheaper.
Exactly-Motul is decently priced and is readily available at most motorcycle shops if you need to buy it locally. Love the Raybestos...great pad. Too bad Randall Race raised their prices I'm currently using a little known company out of Ohio, KFP Magnum, which seem to be pretty good pads too (I'm using the golds).

You'll probably get varying opinions on pads - everyone has their favorite. Try different ones to see what you like best.

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post #11 of 40 Old 04-12-2016, 09:24 AM
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Im happy i read this post, im using 0304 cobra up front and 95 stuff in the rear, the way i always looked at it was this:

an 03/04 cobra is 3600-3800lbs and thats what those brakes were designed for (or we hope) my fox is sub 2900lbs and hopefully she will get around 2750 lbs so my fox being 1000lbs lighter than a cobra, the brakes must laugh at what i throw at them.

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post #12 of 40 Old 04-12-2016, 11:09 AM
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I OT'd my full weight 97 Cobra with the stock Cobra/PBR calipers. Once I added ducting, Motul and Raybestos w/upgrade brake lines, I never had a problem with them whatsoever.

On my CMC car, which is obviously quite a bit lighter, I'm running the Cobra R Brembos and what I've noticed is more even pad wear over the PBRs (both inner to outer pad widths and tapering) . There's a couple Fox body CMC cars in my region still running the PBRs and I've not heard any complaints.

Given the weight of your fox (which is lighter than the minimum weight for a fox-body CMC car), good ducting, pads and fluid, I would think they would be fine...they are pretty decent sized pistons...just expect to wear the piston-side pads out before the other.

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post #13 of 40 Old 04-12-2016, 11:35 AM
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I agree somewhat that the weight plays a big role. But I recall Jack Hidley saying something like comparing brake performance between the sn cars and the Fox chassis is at best difficult even with the same braking systems. I believe he added that the later new edge cars have revised anti-dive than the earlier cars and more aggressive ABS.

In any event, while I haven't done a lot of HPDE/PDX events, those that I have done with the 86 (full weight) didn't tax my 93 Cobra R clone brakes. This with Hawk HPS pads, Motul fluid, SS braided and no air cooling (but no splash guard either).
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post #14 of 40 Old 04-12-2016, 12:20 PM
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Motul 600 is DOT4 with the highest wet boiling point for the money and has never let me down. Raybestos ST47 pads work great and seem to last forever, without destroying rotors. I was a longtime Carbotech fan and they have nothing on the ST47's, which are also cheaper.
ST47 pads are truly amazing. We run them on our ChumpCar 3rd gen F-body and love them. I have 43's on the front of my BMW and they're fine, but they don't have the initial bite and torque of the 47's.
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post #15 of 40 Old 04-12-2016, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting, I appreciate the advice you all offered. I'll let you know once I get the car to the track. Honestly, it probably won't happen until the heat of the summer. With work, remodeling the house and planning a wedding time really is hard to find!

1993 Coyote Swap Coupe.

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post #16 of 40 Old 04-13-2016, 05:34 PM
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would you run the ST47's on a street car?
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post #17 of 40 Old 04-13-2016, 08:01 PM
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They're a bit dusty on the street and it's fairly expensive dust, but they're reasonably quiet and they won't eat rotors when cold like Hawk HP+ will. So it's do-able but kind of a PITA if you don't want to keep cleaning the wheels.
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post #18 of 40 Old 04-14-2016, 03:57 AM
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I'm still running the ST43s on the street - they squeal a bit but surprisingly they, as MFE mentioned, seem to be less harsh that the Hawk pads. Not the greatest when cold either, but doable.

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post #19 of 40 Old 04-16-2016, 07:41 AM
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would you run the ST47's on a street car?
I run 47s on both ends of my full interior mach1 and drive 2 1/2 hours each way to the track.

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post #20 of 40 Old 04-18-2016, 12:41 PM
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would you run the ST47's on a street car?
Just for the fun of it? No, but I know on our warm up laps, we have to be careful about locking up the cold tires. Those pads seem to have an infinite temperature range they work in.
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post #21 of 40 Old 04-19-2016, 09:37 PM
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There is always the poor man's 14" bracket kit from Fully Torqued Racing. I have it, but haven't installed it yet. It calls for sourcing your own SN95 spindles, GT500 brake rotors, and 05-09 Mustang GT calipers, but the brackets allow everything to bolt up. I already had a set of calipers and found rotors for like $53 each. The extra $179 seemed like a no brainer to step up to 14" disks.
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post #22 of 40 Old 04-20-2016, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, I'm just waiting on the heads to come back... I should have them by Tuesday and the car should be together in 2-3 week. Im hoping to make Ocean City hot rod weekend. I am planning on an open track event late June or early July. Theres also a possibility that I may make the Hot Rod Power Tour as long as I can get some miles on the car and work out the kinks.

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post #23 of 40 Old 04-21-2016, 01:09 PM
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There is always the poor man's 14" bracket kit from Fully Torqued Racing. I have it, but haven't installed it yet. It calls for sourcing your own SN95 spindles, GT500 brake rotors, and 05-09 Mustang GT calipers, but the brackets allow everything to bolt up. I already had a set of calipers and found rotors for like $53 each. The extra $179 seemed like a no brainer to step up to 14" disks.
This is what I just did on my foxbody, and its awesome

https://forums.corral.net/forums/road...brake-kit.html
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post #24 of 40 Old 04-28-2016, 02:29 PM
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I am running a 04 cobra front and rear setup with a 93 cobra master and HP+ pads. With brake ducts I have no issues on the track during 25 minute HPDE events. I also run them daily, they are a little noisy and dusty but doable. This is on a 1992 full weight.

My race car is a 1989 notch 4 cyl. running the stock 1992 brakes with HP+ and ducts. We just finished a our second race, 40 hours worth of road course with no issues and about half a pad left. This is on a 2500 lb car that handles well so it is easy on the brakes since we don't slow much to turn.

How do the ST47s compare to the HP+'s, anyone try both?
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post #25 of 40 Old 04-28-2016, 03:04 PM
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Real hard to find a pad that works good on street, drag and road course. Pads have a lot with personnel preference and driving habits. Race pads won't fade when hot but need some heat in them, not real good on street. I have PFC on 88 Mustang with all stock brakes, good at road course, decent at strip, only 13 second car, and livable on street. On my spec miata I have Hawk DTC 60 on front and DTC 30 on rear but it is a race car only. Lots of guys use different pads depends on how you drive and what you like, some will have more initial bite than others. Be sure to follow the bed in procedure with any new pads. Bleed in some fresh fluid to calipers after heating them up at a HPDE.
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post #26 of 40 Old 04-29-2016, 01:27 AM
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How do the ST47s compare to the HP+'s, anyone try both?
ST47's are more rotor-friendly when cold, more easily modulated, have a higher temp limit, and last longer.
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post #27 of 40 Old 04-29-2016, 11:25 AM
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I believe that you should run the largest brake set up that you can afford as this allows the brake system to better deal with heat.

Here is an overcooked gt brake system


The faster you go or the heavier your car gets then the hotter your brakes will get.

At minimum, I would suggest a 4-6 piston fixed caliper and 14 inch rotors as just swapping pads, fluid and hoses on a Cobra/PBR setup may be inadequate. Of course the big brake set ups add some much needed bling to the car as well.
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post #28 of 40 Old 04-29-2016, 11:29 AM
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This!
I road raced a SN95 with the cobra brakes and cooling ducts for several years without issue (and won a regional championship with them). I eventually went with stoptech ST40's and found I couldn't stop any better, just had pads that would last longer under race conditions. Brakes are a system of calipers, pads, and rotors. They are only going to work as well as the weakest component and HPS pads (and probably fluid) were the weak link.
Bigger brakes won't really shorten stopping distances but good tires will. What a big break system does well is make the 50th stop feel like the first and you noticed this by the fact that pads last longer due to less thermal stress.
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post #29 of 40 Old 04-30-2016, 11:50 AM
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I'm doing a clean-sheet build, right from the factory 4 lug. Went with the FRPP 2000 R kit. Assuming I did everything correctly, they should work awesomesauce.


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post #30 of 40 Old 05-01-2016, 02:53 PM
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That's a good setup - it's what I run on my CMC car
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post #31 of 40 Old 05-01-2016, 04:20 PM
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Bigger brakes won't really shorten stopping distances but good tires will. What a big break system does well is make the 50th stop feel like the first and you noticed this by the fact that pads last longer due to less thermal stress.


That is not quite entirely accurate. BBK have opposed pistons, meaning the rotor is squeezed equally from both sides. Possibly larger thermal path, but the rotors are supposed to dissipate the heat, not the calipers.
The two biggest factors BBK's add are:
much improved modulation/feel
and
almost no pad taper
Thus extending the life of both the pads and the rotors by a HUGE margin. Ultimate stopping performance is related to max deceleration without lock up, so better control = better stopping. I agree that sticky tires make a bigger difference, and will also overtax brakes already at their limit quite easily.

My 3500 lb 444 rwhp street Fox vert had f/r Cobra brakes that I tried various pads with. HPS, EBC Red, EBC Blue. Then added ducting. Shaved 255/20/17 NT01s all around, so that was a lot of grip for a street tire. No real serious fade, but needed more and more pedal pressure to maintain consistent deceleration performance and one hard track day would finish off a full set of rotors and pads. Make sure you have the anti moan brackets installed on the rear caliper brackets to triangulate them for minimizing pad taper and improving rear brake torque.
The two tracks I run at are murderous on brakes, that's why most of the newer cars don't like them because their even heavier mass makes it worse.



Switched the fronts over to Brembo 4 piston calipers, and added dedicated one pc Stoptech slotted rotors and DTC60 Hawk pads all around for the track.


The car entered another zone. Truly remarkable how much faster and confidence inspiring it became. The brake swap between street and track is a PITA, but hard race type pads not only dust badly but wear the rotors out at something like a 10:1 rate vs when hot.
My new setup has 5 hard track days (40-60 laps per day) and the brakes are virtually new in dimensions. I should have installed 17mm thick pads, as they further improve the heat insulation between the rotor surface and fluid, along with stainless pistons; both of which are on my to do list.

I am also going to 18x10 lightweight wheels with Hoosier/Conti 275/35 full race slicks this year, so I will likely need even more pad.





Won't really know anything until the first shakedown; car received MM k member, 1.5" wheelbase extension, 1" engine setback, MM Torque arm and re installed power steering this winter. Car should be 2 or 3 sec per lap faster at min, and a whole bunch easier to drive, now that I don't have to wrestle with the 12" Momo steering wheel unassisted, lol

Some vid footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_2yTyzbCCQ


Using slotted and drilled one pc street rotors along with HP+ pads, a little noisy and dusty but can handle hard driving with no fade on the street; likely could take a day at a fast, non braking track.
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post #32 of 40 Old 05-02-2016, 11:33 AM
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That is not quite entirely accurate. BBK have opposed pistons, meaning the rotor is squeezed equally from both sides. Possibly larger thermal path, but the rotors are supposed to dissipate the heat, not the calipers.
The two biggest factors BBK's add are:
much improved modulation/feel
and
almost no pad taper
Thus extending the life of both the pads and the rotors by a HUGE margin.

A simple physics equation F=MA where F is force, M is mass and A is acceleration tells us that as mass increases or weight increases, force production increases and the brakes turn force into heat. So consider the 2013 GT500 weighing in at almost 4000 pounds and topping out at 200MPH and a situation is created where the brakes have to deal with a lot more heat.

Ford ran the calculations and came up with a 32 pound 15 inch rotor and 6 pistons to deal with the heat.

Really the biggest benefit of a big brake upgrade is increased heat defense or repteability as in the 50th stop at the track will feel like the first.

The stock FOX brakes are terrible because they can't handle the heat and after a few open track laps, they are gone.

Looking back, who would have thought that ford would stuff huge brakes from the factory in the front and rear of a mustang as in the case of the GT350???

The Mustang GT350 has 6 piston front calipers, 15.5 inch rotors. 4 piston rear calipers and 15 rotors right off the show room floor.



These are good days.
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post #33 of 40 Old 05-05-2016, 04:49 PM
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My puny 13" rotors are fine for 500rwhp Mustang...


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post #34 of 40 Old 05-05-2016, 11:32 PM
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A simple physics equation F=MA where F is force, M is mass and A is acceleration tells us that as mass increases or weight increases, force production increases and the brakes turn force into heat. So consider the 2013 GT500 weighing in at almost 4000 pounds and topping out at 200MPH and a situation is created where the brakes have to deal with a lot more heat.

Ford ran the calculations and came up with a 32 pound 15 inch rotor and 6 pistons to deal with the heat.

Really the biggest benefit of a big brake upgrade is increased heat defense or repteability as in the 50th stop at the track will feel like the first.

The stock FOX brakes are terrible because they can't handle the heat and after a few open track laps, they are gone.

Looking back, who would have thought that ford would stuff huge brakes from the factory in the front and rear of a mustang as in the case of the GT350???

The Mustang GT350 has 6 piston front calipers, 15.5 inch rotors. 4 piston rear calipers and 15 rotors right off the show room floor.



These are good days.


The above calculations are theroretically correct, but they are missing two realities:
1) We were talking about the benefit of going from the Cobra brakes to the BBK; I assumed we were talking about the 13" dia with the same width rotors, so there is no additional heat dissipation. The physics calculations assume perfect pad to rotor contact, which a one sided sliding caliper cannot do in the real world, but opposing piston calipers come much closer. The stiffer the caliper (Monobloc) the more likely this will occur.

2) The rotating mass of a heavier tire/wheel combo, along with heavier rotors, also means more braking force is required, in addition to the velocity and mass of the vehicle. The available friction of the tires to the track surface also determine how much deceleration is possible. Stickier tires will tax the brakes much faster than more power.

More pistons doesn't automatically mean more braking, plenty of NASCARS run 4 piston calipers because they are lighter and stiffer. Multiple pistons means there is likely better pad contact, the Vette's and some big Porsches use 8 piston calipers with slotted or even multiple brake pads.

At the end of it all, you are correct in how lucky we are that even budget performance cars finally come equipped with appropriate sized brakes considering the performance potential.

Having said that, all this marketing crap about "Track Pack" brakes is hogwash. Those setups are for the street and the (usually crap) tires the cars come with.
Premium performance cars like the Z28 or GT350R with the carbon wheels and PS2's likely come with dual purpose pads. I would think even they could use more aggressive (hi temp) pads and cooling ducts in order to maximize their braking performances.
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post #35 of 40 Old 05-05-2016, 11:40 PM
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My puny 13" rotors are fine for 500rwhp Mustang...

lol, I have a similar setup and power, except yours is faster.....


Are you still running those creatively built 2 pc rotors? Would appreciate a link to your info on those circle track parts, if it's still relevant. My car is mostly street driven, but sees a few hard track days every season.
Thx
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