MM&FF SN95 Suspension Article - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 02-22-2016, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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MM&FF SN95 Suspension Article

Last week I received my issue of Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords and they had an article on a suspension upgrade using Maximum Motorsports parts. On the rear suspension they installed a panhard bar; however, I don't think they removed the upper control arms.

Is there any benefit of adding a panhard bar while keeping the upper control arms?

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post #2 of 14 Old 02-22-2016, 03:18 PM
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The PHB is added to the 4 link and not in place of anything. The PHB keeps the rear end from shifting from side to side while cornering and somewhat redefines the roll center. It's a worthwhile addition.


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post #3 of 14 Old 02-22-2016, 09:53 PM
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I have their lower control arms, Panhard bar, and stock uppers on my car right now. The Panhard makes a BIG difference.

'88 LX hatch. Mild 331. Full MM suspension minus the Torque Arm, Cobra Brakes. Not as slow as it used to be.
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post #4 of 14 Old 02-23-2016, 03:43 PM
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I have their lower control arms, Panhard bar, and stock uppers on my car right now. The Panhard makes a BIG difference.
I have this same setup on my NASA CMC racecar. Haven't tried many other configurations but since I own the track record for my class I'd say it works pretty well.

If racing is like sex.....why would you want it to only last 10 seconds. (road races last 25 to 45 minutes!)
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post #5 of 14 Old 02-23-2016, 08:31 PM
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Have you ever had your car set-up with a PM3L? I'd be interested to get your take on the difference.

I have been under the false impression that I was running the MM track box rear springs, when in fact, I have the lighter of the torque arm springs. Now, if I go with the single upper Heim joint upper, the rear end will soften up a bit when I remove the bind of the uppers.

'88 LX hatch. Mild 331. Full MM suspension minus the Torque Arm, Cobra Brakes. Not as slow as it used to be.
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post #6 of 14 Old 02-24-2016, 05:06 AM
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To the OP, my car is equipped with B springs and MM panhard/ LCAs. Panhard keeps the car a little more behaved, LCAs got rid of my wheel hop. They did their homework, and you can install the stuff separately with benefits. Torque arm finishes cleaning up the mess Ford made of the rear geometry.
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Have you ever had your car set-up with a PM3L? I'd be interested to get your take on the difference.
Interested as well. There's a lot of back and forth on PM3L vs 4link and Panhard.

If its really better to have three I'd love to rip out the UCA. What bothers me is the assymetry and how that would effect the car's road manners.
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post #7 of 14 Old 02-24-2016, 10:01 AM
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The asymmetry doesn't affect road manners, it only affects the way the car handles each side of a slalom (and even then, you'd have to be really, really good drive to even notice the difference).
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post #8 of 14 Old 02-27-2016, 07:33 PM
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I ran the MM PHB with stock uppers and found no appreciable difference. In fact, the car had some odd behavior. Then I read that the uppers and PHB define two different roll centers and therefor "fight". The PHB usually wins but not without that "odd" behavior.

I went to the PM3L with rod-ends. This made a huge difference; transformed the car. Needed to add more spring (similar to a T/A spring). Ran the PM3L for three seasons. Ultimately installed an MM T/A.
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post #9 of 14 Old 02-27-2016, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qtrracer View Post
I ran the MM PHB with stock uppers and found no appreciable difference. In fact, the car had some odd behavior. Then I read that the uppers and PHB define two different roll centers and therefor "fight". The PHB usually wins but not without that "odd" behavior.

I went to the PM3L with rod-ends. This made a huge difference; transformed the car. Needed to add more spring (similar to a T/A spring). Ran the PM3L for three seasons. Ultimately installed an MM T/A.
Did you run the rubber bushing in the axle end or go spherical?
I have all the pieces in hand now. Just waiting on winter to end!!

'88 LX hatch. Mild 331. Full MM suspension minus the Torque Arm, Cobra Brakes. Not as slow as it used to be.
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post #10 of 14 Old 02-27-2016, 09:15 PM
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Did you run the rubber bushing in the axle end or go spherical?
I have all the pieces in hand now. Just waiting on winter to end!!
Rod-ends both ends. Eliminates bind which is what you want. However, this comes at the price of a lot of gear noise transferred into the cabin. But the handling is phenomenal. You have to pay attention to the chassis side mount because of the stress caused by the angle, but I had no problems during those three years. However, I had a stock motor.

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post #11 of 14 Old 02-29-2016, 02:00 PM
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qtrracer,

Were your upper boxes welded at the time?

-John
1988 Scarlet Red T-Top GT
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post #12 of 14 Old 02-29-2016, 02:45 PM
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qtrracer,

Were your upper boxes welded at the time?
Nope - factory 86 with about 140K on the chassis. I did worry about this for awhile, but after the first season of checking, nothing seemed out of place. At the close of the third season I decided to replace the rod-ends - not because they were bad - just for safety concerns. But about that time MM was doing their DOTD and I sprung for the TA. When the car went into the shop last year for the mods, we looked at the torque boxes inside and out and they are still OK. But as I said, stock power with 280 wear street tires.
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post #13 of 14 Old 03-03-2016, 03:37 AM
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Anyone have pictures of the PM3L killing torque boxes? Is there extra strain on the lowers too or just upper?

I understand theres going to be less compliance and more shock to the upper, curious if the lowers have to deal with more lateral strain too. The PHB locates the axle but with less support from the uppers I could imagine the load has to move somewhere.

When the axle tries to spin only one asymmetric upper is going to have to catch that torque, and any torque off axis will try and spin the axle housing around, pushing and pulling the LCAs.

I guess I'm answering my own questions, but I'd like to see failures. "It worked for the time I had it" is fine, but doesn't say much about the actual limits of the PM3L. It'd be nice to see how, and how bad these do fail
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post #14 of 14 Old 03-03-2016, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qtrracer View Post
I ran the MM PHB with stock uppers and found no appreciable difference. In fact, the car had some odd behavior. Then I read that the uppers and PHB define two different roll centers and therefor "fight". The PHB usually wins but not without that "odd" behavior.
Are you referring to when the rear feels like it's winding up near the limit? Under hard cornering and throttle, for me it feels like the rear spring rate goes up as the car digs in. My best guess is I'm getting into the vertical bind the UCAs still do with a panhard bar.

The roll center thing is interesting, I havent seen much on how they interact. Roll center of the 4 link is close to where the uppers intersect, and roll center with a PHB is about centered in the bar. I'd like to know if they create their own moment or if they act in different areas of the suspension travel, transitioning between the two with some overlap
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