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post #1 of 24 Old 11-09-2015, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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Springs too soft?

So what does this tell you about my suspension? I was only about 80% on the brakes. Are my springs too soft? I don't know what rate they are, I just know they are Steeda springs.

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1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #2 of 24 Old 11-12-2015, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan67stang View Post
So what does this tell you about my suspension? I was only about 80% on the brakes. Are my springs too soft? I don't know what rate they are, I just know they are Steeda springs.
Who knows? We have no idea what the rest of the setup is under your car? Stock sway bars? Stock suspension other than the springs?

Frankly, it doesn't look like anything out of the ordinary with regard to mustang body roll and brake dive. The problems are not so much spring related as they are geometry related.

Although that doesn't mean that your steeda springs are good for performance, either.

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post #3 of 24 Old 11-12-2015, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 91TwighlightGT View Post
Who knows? We have no idea what the rest of the setup is under your car? Stock sway bars? Stock suspension other than the springs?

Frankly, it doesn't look like anything out of the ordinary with regard to mustang body roll and brake dive. The problems are not so much spring related as they are geometry related.

Although that doesn't mean that your steeda springs are good for performance, either.
The geometry is all stock. The front sway bar is stock, the rear is a steeda. The shocks are edelbrock (didn't even know they make shocks). Would stiffer springs and adjustable shocks help much? Or should I just save up for a coilover setup?

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
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post #4 of 24 Old 11-12-2015, 12:12 PM
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Depends on what you want to do with the car and how serious you want to get. What class would you be building it for?
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post #5 of 24 Old 11-12-2015, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Depends on what you want to do with the car and how serious you want to get. What class would you be building it for?
I'm building for CAM class. Pretty sure I'm only legal for CAM and XP since I have an aftermarket engine block and 347 kit. I want to be as competitive as possible while still keeping the car as a great DD. I've read that coil-overs increase the wheel rate a lot while keeping comfortable ride quality.

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #6 of 24 Old 11-12-2015, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan67stang View Post
I'm building for CAM class. Pretty sure I'm only legal for CAM and XP since I have an aftermarket engine block and 347 kit. I want to be as competitive as possible while still keeping the car as a great DD. I've read that coil-overs increase the wheel rate a lot while keeping comfortable ride quality.
Before you start throwing parts at the car you need to understand the shortcomings of the stock suspension and what problems you are trying to address.

Read here as a start...

The Official Suspension Guide - MustangForums.com

Figure out what modifications you are allowed in class, then start working on the abortion that is your rear suspension. Coilovers are great but they are not your biggest problem right now.
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post #7 of 24 Old 11-12-2015, 10:13 PM
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XP is a stupid fast class on slicks or DOT R-comps, forget it. Like minimum weight 2200 lbs or something stupid forget it. Your motor would be CP legal though, minimum weight 3000 lbs. But CP cars are also real race cars on real slicks. Forget it. CAM is your best bet. I watched CAM at Nationals (I was the Sportscar reporter for that heat). There are some awesome cars in CAM but none that couldn't be caught with power, suspension, and weight reduction, imo. Just gotta fit FAT tires front and rear. 315s at a minimum. Also, a great daily driver won't be competitive in any class at a level higher than regional once a real car shows up. Buy a beater for a great daily. Your mustang is 21 years old. It's old enough to drink. #### will start breaking fast. Alternator cable here. TFI there. Fuel pump. ECU. This #### all strands you on the side of the road. Solution: racecar!
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post #8 of 24 Old 11-13-2015, 08:29 AM
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Looks like a Mustang with the stock style rear suspension. A Torque arm will fix it.

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post #9 of 24 Old 11-13-2015, 08:45 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aurdraco View Post
XP is a stupid fast class on slicks or DOT R-comps, forget it. Like minimum weight 2200 lbs or something stupid forget it. Your motor would be CP legal though, minimum weight 3000 lbs. But CP cars are also real race cars on real slicks. Forget it. CAM is your best bet. I watched CAM at Nationals (I was the Sportscar reporter for that heat). There are some awesome cars in CAM but none that couldn't be caught with power, suspension, and weight reduction, imo. Just gotta fit FAT tires front and rear. 315s at a minimum. Also, a great daily driver won't be competitive in any class at a level higher than regional once a real car shows up. Buy a beater for a great daily. Your mustang is 21 years old. It's old enough to drink. #### will start breaking fast. Alternator cable here. TFI there. Fuel pump. ECU. This #### all strands you on the side of the road. Solution: racecar!
Yeah, that's why I got stickers made for CAM lol. I have 285 width Hankook RS3s. I got 285 cause that is the largest I could fit up front and I want to be able to rotate all the tires so that they last longer. That gives you an idea of the direction I am taking the mustang. It isn't my DD but I want to make sure it could be a great DD for anyone else, or if I decide to make it my DD. And by competitive, I mean I would like to consistently place top 3 at my local events. Right now I am between 3-5. I'm willing to do all new suspension geometry but I won't ever strip the interior or go crazy with weigh savings.

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #10 of 24 Old 11-13-2015, 08:46 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by j rick kirby View Post
Looks like a Mustang with the stock style rear suspension. A Torque arm will fix it.
Will it? That would be awesome. I already have a MM panhard bar waiting to go in. I'm just saving up money until I can get the MM torque arm. From everything I've read, doing the torque arm/panhard bar is the single biggest improvement you can make.


1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #11 of 24 Old 11-13-2015, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 91TwighlightGT View Post
Before you start throwing parts at the car you need to understand the shortcomings of the stock suspension and what problems you are trying to address.

Read here as a start...

The Official Suspension Guide - MustangForums.com

Figure out what modifications you are allowed in class, then start working on the abortion that is your rear suspension. Coilovers are great but they are not your biggest problem right now.
Thanks for the link! Yeah, I'm eventually going to a torque arm/panhard bar rear end. And in regards to CAM, pretty much anything is legal. 200TW or more. Above a certain weight and wheelbase. And a complete interior.

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #12 of 24 Old 11-13-2015, 11:39 AM
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The majority of what you are seeing isn't front dive as much as it is rear lift. As stated the stock 4 link geometry is at work here. A torque arm will change that, bringing the longitudinal instant center inside of the wheel base. This both reduces rear lift and provides antisquat, increasing traction on acceleration. However, it is not all free. There will be need of increased rear spring rate to ofset the removal of the upper arms as well as a shock that is valved appropriately. The forces that reduce dive also contribute to axle brake hop. The adjustable compression of the Koni double adjustable OR (I assume) the custom valved Bilstein shocks that Maximum Motorsports offers will help here.

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post #13 of 24 Old 11-13-2015, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RollCamberCoef View Post
The majority of what you are seeing isn't front dive as much as it is rear lift. As stated the stock 4 link geometry is at work here. A torque arm will change that, bringing the longitudinal instant center inside of the wheel base. This both reduces rear lift and provides antisquat, increasing traction on acceleration. However, it is not all free. There will be need of increased rear spring rate to ofset the removal of the upper arms as well as a shock that is valved appropriately. The forces that reduce dive also contribute to axle brake hop. The adjustable compression of the Koni double adjustable OR (I assume) the custom valved Bilstein shocks that Maximum Motorsports offers will help here.
It also will ride better because the bind created by the UCAs will be gone. The ONLY downside is a little more NVH coming thru your butt from the rear end that is now attached to a crossmember right under your butt and I've never experienced any rear wheel hop under braking.
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post #14 of 24 Old 11-14-2015, 01:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by j rick kirby View Post
It also will ride better because the bind created by the UCAs will be gone. The ONLY downside is a little more NVH coming thru your butt from the rear end that is now attached to a crossmember right under your butt and I've never experienced any rear wheel hop under braking.
Awesome!

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #15 of 24 Old 11-14-2015, 01:23 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RollCamberCoef View Post
The majority of what you are seeing isn't front dive as much as it is rear lift. As stated the stock 4 link geometry is at work here. A torque arm will change that, bringing the longitudinal instant center inside of the wheel base. This both reduces rear lift and provides antisquat, increasing traction on acceleration. However, it is not all free. There will be need of increased rear spring rate to ofset the removal of the upper arms as well as a shock that is valved appropriately. The forces that reduce dive also contribute to axle brake hop. The adjustable compression of the Koni double adjustable OR (I assume) the custom valved Bilstein shocks that Maximum Motorsports offers will help here.
Yeah. My goal (if I can afford it) is to get the torque arm, rear springs, and rear shocks all at the same time. And maybe the height adjustable MM LCAs.

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #16 of 24 Old 11-14-2015, 06:16 AM
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You need to figure out what springs you have on the front. My guess is that they are the Sport springs which is not enough.If you are not going coilover then you need to go to a H&R Race or Super Race spring. That may sound like a lot of spring but it's really not. It's about the equivalent of a 250# coilover and on track cars people routinely use 450# or so coilovers. Use a MM TA5 or 6 on the rear for the PHB/TA setup. For shocks the Koni SAs or the Bilsteins are the best choices. MM makes a grooved Bil that can be converted to coilover later should you so desire.

If you can't drop all that coin at once then get the Race or Super Race springs now and the shocks of your choice for both ends of the car along with your PHB. That will keep you happy for a while as that will be a BIG improvement. Then add the TA and change the rear springs to the TA 5 or 6 later. Oh for the TA you will need the MM SFCs. Hopefully you have already done that as that is the very first thing you should have done.

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post #17 of 24 Old 11-16-2015, 05:11 PM
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You can do a lot with conventional front geometry and springs etc. if you car is dedicated to the track. If you want to street drive the car without losing your teeth, and still be competitive on track, you will want coilovers and adjustable shocks. Personally, I prefer the approach of stiffening the springs until you are lifting tires, then soften the swaybar until the tires set back down. If you can't get air with your front tires with your torque, you either need more rear grip or your chassis is drooping (flexing). To fix this, get a torque arm and PHB, and do some seam welding/roll bar if you want to make use of the high springs rates, otherwise the chassis just flexes like a spring.

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post #18 of 24 Old 11-30-2015, 11:42 PM
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One thing that I didn't see anyone else address, is the fact that adding the TA/PHB rear set up without making comparable changes to the front suspension will cause a dramatically unbalanced handling car.
If you run a TA or 3-Link/PHB set up in the rear you will have to run significantly stiffer springs ( and shocks that can control them) like j rick kirby & fast-frank-d suggested.
I have run both a TA/PHB and a 3-Link/PHB set up on the rear, while keeping the front suspension in a stock type configuration. Both cars went from balanced, fairly neutral handling to excessive understeer. I switched both cars to the MM TA-5 rear springs which helped. I also turned the front shocks to there softest setting. Not the best solution but it has helped until both cars are switched a coil over front set up. Oh and we ran an aggressive front alignment on both cars.
This is something you will need to consider both as a budget concern & handling concern.
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post #19 of 24 Old 12-01-2015, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EJthePJ View Post
One thing that I didn't see anyone else address, is the fact that adding the TA/PHB rear set up without making comparable changes to the front suspension will cause a dramatically unbalanced handling car.
If you run a TA or 3-Link/PHB set up in the rear you will have to run significantly stiffer springs ( and shocks that can control them) like j rick kirby & fast-frank-d suggested.
I have run both a TA/PHB and a 3-Link/PHB set up on the rear, while keeping the front suspension in a stock type configuration. Both cars went from balanced, fairly neutral handling to excessive understeer. I switched both cars to the MM TA-5 rear springs which helped. I also turned the front shocks to there softest setting. Not the best solution but it has helped until both cars are switched a coil over front set up. Oh and we ran an aggressive front alignment on both cars.
This is something you will need to consider both as a budget concern & handling concern.
Thanks. Yeah I plan to do coil-overs in front eventually but because of my budget I will have to get there in stages. First stage is the rear. I already have a PHB and I just ordered the TA on black friday. I plan on getting the new TA springs too. Bad news is, I just found out my SFCs aren't sufficient so I have to have them cut out and MM SFCs put in. I don't know how much that will cost. I also can't afford new rear shocks right now. I plan on getting coil overs next (in 6mo or 1yr) along with new shocks all around. Then maybe (big maybe) new k-member, a-arms, and adjustable height LCAs.

1994 Mustang Cobra #662,347 Stroker,AFR Heads,Trickflow Intake,Anderson Cam,LT Headers,Flowmaster
TR-3550,Centerforce Clutch,31 Spline Axles,42lb Injectors,90mm MAF,SCT Tune
Steeda Suspension,FLSFC,Edelbrock Shocks,18x9.5 Forgestar CF5,Hankook RS3 Tires
Dyno'd @ 366rwhp 378ft/lbs
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post #20 of 24 Old 12-02-2015, 08:15 AM
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Thanks. Yeah I plan to do coil-overs in front eventually but because of my budget I will have to get there in stages. First stage is the rear. I already have a PHB and I just ordered the TA on black friday. I plan on getting the new TA springs too. Bad news is, I just found out my SFCs aren't sufficient so I have to have them cut out and MM SFCs put in. I don't know how much that will cost. I also can't afford new rear shocks right now. I plan on getting coil overs next (in 6mo or 1yr) along with new shocks all around. Then maybe (big maybe) new k-member, a-arms, and adjustable height LCAs.
Not sure WTF EJthePJ is talking about. First he says that no one addressed the change in balance because of the addition of the TA then he says that myself and fast-frank-d did address it. Anyhow the TA 5 or 6 springs is how you get the balance back, or at least most of it. I ended up also adding a pair of Eibach sway bars and that really helped the front end stick better. I know that goes against conventional chassis engineering logic but because it took a lot of body roll out of the car the front is now using the whole foot print of the tire and not rolling over on the outside edge.

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post #21 of 24 Old 12-07-2015, 02:11 PM
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Not sure WTF EJthePJ is talking about. First he says that no one addressed the change in balance because of the addition of the TA then he says that myself and fast-frank-d did address it. Anyhow the TA 5 or 6 springs is how you get the balance back, or at least most of it. I ended up also adding a pair of Eibach sway bars and that really helped the front end stick better. I know that goes against conventional chassis engineering logic but because it took a lot of body roll out of the car the front is now using the whole foot print of the tire and not rolling over on the outside edge.
I guess what I was talking about is that I didn't see anybody that had explicitly stated that it will "upset the balance". Yes you and fast_frank gave the correct solution, but I must have missed your explanations as to why the solution was needed.
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post #22 of 24 Old 12-07-2015, 10:52 PM
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I guess what I was talking about is that I didn't see anybody that had explicitly stated that it will "upset the balance". Yes you and fast_frank gave the correct solution, but I must have missed your explanations as to why the solution was needed.
Below is my previous quote. I implied an upset in balance, but not explicitly stating it. It was kind of sandwiched in the middle of my reply.

Quote:
.... If you can't get air with your front tires with your torque, you either need more rear grip or your chassis is drooping (flexing).
Some added clarification... for the OP's torque levels listed in the sig, he should be able to pick up the inside tire on corner exit once he has the rear grip working well enough to do so (e.g. upsetting the balance of the car). At that point, he will understeer on 3 wheels. He can then set the front tire back down by either softening the front (recommend less sway), or stiffening the rear (recommend more spring), or both.

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post #23 of 24 Old 12-08-2015, 01:17 AM
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Below is my previous quote. I implied an upset in balance, but not explicitly stating it. It was kind of sandwiched in the middle of my reply.



Some added clarification... for the OP's torque levels listed in the sig, he should be able to pick up the inside tire on corner exit once he has the rear grip working well enough to do so (e.g. upsetting the balance of the car). At that point, he will understeer on 3 wheels. He can then set the front tire back down by either softening the front (recommend less sway), or stiffening the rear (recommend more spring), or both.

Frank
Hi Frank!

Yes I see what you were saying...that is why I agreed with you & j rick.
I just figured that for those reading this post, that are less initiated in chassis & suspension dynamics, it would be good to state in more plain terms what was happening. That way a person new to all of this could hopefully understand the information as well.
I understand your explanation because I have experienced that phenomenon. I've also gone through the process of trying to re-balance the car.
For a new-ish person going from a relatively stock type suspension with the classic fox body mustang oversteer...to a set-up that now dramatically understeers...it could be quite a surprise!
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post #24 of 24 Old 12-14-2015, 02:48 PM
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CAM is a great class for the Mustang. Moreover, CAM-C's weight break is 3200#. The rules are unlimited for suspension so a full MM set-up front and rear would make a world of difference.

But let's say you are on a budget and can only do a few things at a time. Get an MM PHB (or Watts link if that is your flavor) installed and a rod-ended PM3L. Install the PM3L on the PS, and remove the DS upper all together. Raise the rear spring rates to at least H&R Race; install Bilstein HDs. In the front, get an MM C/O kit for Bilsteins (or Konis - but IMHO, don't bother with the SAs; Bils are better and cheaper). Front spring rates can be in the 250-275 range with the conventional H&R Race rears. Ride quality will be night and day improved and A/X performance will be transformed (both results primarily due to the reduced/eliminated rear bind in the suspension). NVH will increase in the cabin due to the gear noise being transferred by the rod-ended PM3L. This assumes you already have FLSFCs.

On Edit: Read a little more carefully and see you have a PHB and ordered the T/A. But the problem you already know about is the SFCs. I had the same issue and cutting out the old and welding in the new SFCs plus installation of the T/A is expensive. And, you still won't have necessary supporting pieces to take advantage of the rear suspension upgrade.

If not too late, I'd send the T/A back. Put the T/A money into the front C/O kit, the PM3L, rear H&R conventions and Bilsteins. This configuration nearly gives you the same benefit with a lot less cost but also a firm foundation for improvements as budget permits.
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