Which Suspension Set up - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 11-05-2011, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Which Suspension Set up

Looking for everyones input, and reason why:

Car is a 00 GT - strictly a track car, used in NASA Time Trials (TTB)

Looking to change my entire suspension set up and cant decide which one is best.

Current set up is relatively stock
Eibach front/rear sway bars
Steeda Sport Springs
Tokico Blue shocks/struts
3 bolt C/C plates
Upper and lower control arms (D&D)

Currently the main problems with the car are:
1. heavy dive under hard braking that causes wheel hop.
2. car understeers a bit in certain types of corners.

I Was thinking steeda 5 link or MM Torque arm and panhard bar.
I'm leaning towards the 5 link currently. TQ Arm looks like a PITA to install (i have a bassani xpipe), and from what I rear the TQ isn't going to help my to major issues listed above.

Can you use/do you need rear coil overs with a 5 link?

Front:
I'd like to put a k member w/ coil overs in. But Steeda doesn't offer a set up. Anyone use a MM k member and coil overs with a 5 link rear? Does it work well. I'm not sure about mixing and matching manufacturers.


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post #2 of 12 Old 11-05-2011, 09:44 PM
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The torque arm will reduce brake dive, a lot. Exgf asked how I could stop the car quickly without the front end wouldn't dipping down. Haha. With proper springs (that compliment each other, front & rear) there will not be any axle hop.

Although I have a foxbody, I ran a Bassani Xpipe with the MM torque arm for years. There was some minor modifying done. Now I have a custom mid-pipe. I took my car to an off-road truck shop and they fabbed up an Xpipe that fits really nice. My car also has a T-56.

I daily drove this car with entire MM catalog save for rear sway bar for 4 years until my son was born. Baby seats and rollbars are not friends.

No experience with the Steeda parts.


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post #3 of 12 Old 11-05-2011, 09:57 PM
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I have the MM phb, T/A, coilover setup and love it! My spring rates on the coilovers aren't too aggressive but it performs awesome! Never had a car with any steeda parts so I can't comment on that, but I've had two cars with MM setups and one with Griggs setup (all running TA/PHB setups) and theyve all been great!

As for the understeer issue, I still have this problem on turns, but it's not too bad. I have MM offset control arms, solid steering shaft, and aluminum steering rack bushings all ready to be installed. I'm hoping these will help improve my front end issue when matched with my MM coilover setup in the front.
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post #4 of 12 Old 11-06-2011, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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The TA and Panhard bar seems to be more popular. My question is why?

Understeer is one of the major things I'm trying to correct, so if the TA and PB make it worse in any way I deff dont want to go that route.

Also - the TA seems like a job I wont be able to do myself (welding, exhuast modifications etc), the 5 link is something I'd be comfortable installing myself, and I planned on dumping my exhuast right after my mufflers anyways so I dont care about running tailpipes w/ a 5 link.

Will the 5 link help nose dive at all or do I need to concentrate on my front spring rate for that issue?

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post #5 of 12 Old 11-07-2011, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
The TA and Panhard bar seems to be more popular. My question is why?

Understeer is one of the major things I'm trying to correct, so if the TA and PB make it worse in any way I deff dont want to go that route.

Also - the TA seems like a job I wont be able to do myself (welding, exhuast modifications etc), the 5 link is something I'd be comfortable installing myself, and I planned on dumping my exhuast right after my mufflers anyways so I dont care about running tailpipes w/ a 5 link.

Will the 5 link help nose dive at all or do I need to concentrate on my front spring rate for that issue?
I've not driven (track or auto-x) the PHB/TA or 5 link combo. I've done a lot of reading and it seems that they are 2 VERY different paths to the same thing. The marketing material says that the 5 link is a little better under braking, so I would assume your 'brake dive' (actually rear lift) would improve.

I think the TA/PHB route is more popular because they've been building it for 25+ years vs. the 5 link which has only been around since the turn of the century (wow, that makes me feel old). You could also do the PHB first, then add the TA later and change the rear springs.

I think you need to think about what you want to do. If you are going to compete in NASA TT, look at the rule book. You get docked points for each modification, but some more so than others...

I think you'd be really happy with either set up.

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post #6 of 12 Old 11-07-2011, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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So I've done alot more reading, called up Steeda and MM and spoken to some NASA racers.... I think I'm looking at this from the wrong end.

I really dont have much issues with the rear (other than lift during braking).

I'm thinking a stiffer front spring might be the first thing to try, its a bunch cheaper and no extra points for my TT class that I dont already have (even though I have some to spare).

I'm sure a stiffer front spring will help with nose dive (rear lift), and from I'm told it should help with understeer by limiting body roll.

Question is, if I go to a stiff front spring should I get a softer (smaller front swarbar)?

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post #7 of 12 Old 11-07-2011, 04:09 PM
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Stick with your existing bar and see how it feels, adjust bar size from there.
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post #8 of 12 Old 11-07-2011, 05:14 PM
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First, How much do you want to spend???

Second, Why are you running in TTB???

Unless you have a lot more power than a regular GT, I think you're going to have your work cut out for you in TTB unless you spend A LOT. I've got a friend who runs and WINS in TTC with a 2000 GT, and he's at TTD power to weight ratio... full interior and accessories save for a rear seat delete. Again, why are you running in TTB? He has custom valved Bilsteins front and rear with front MM coilovers, 350# front springs, 250-275# rear conventional springs, Bullitt sway bars, MM rear adj. height LCA's and PHB, X2 balljoints, stock UCA's (w/fresh bushings), Cobra brakes, Torsen T2r, AND THATS IT! On 255 Hoosiers, which he usually wins every weekend NASA runs at Road Atlanta, his personal best is 1:40 and change... Very fast for a car weighing 3200# and less than 260whp in TTC.

I'm going to lay it out for you like this...

Most Important first.

Spend a little -----> Spend a lot

1- H&R Race or Super Race Springs - Not sure how well those Tokico's will handle them, but easy to find out.
2- Better shocks and struts (custom valved Bilsteins are a huge bargain)
3- Front Coilovers + Better shocks and struts
4- Panhard Bar or Watts Link(if you can afford the points in TT) (with stock UCA's back in)
OR
4- Steeda 5 link (If you can afford the points in TT)
5- X2 balljoints
6- Torsen T2R

I'm assuming you've got WELDED full length Subframe connectors an aggressive track alignment with ~ -3* camber and 7* caster.

Your front sway bar may prove to be too much when going to the higher wheel rates... try a stock one or even smaller MM one, you'll gain more front grip and less understeer at the expense of a little lean.

I don't think you're far off from a much improved setup, but those soft springs and barely adequate dampers are holding you back the most. Then your HIGH rear roll center is going to make the car a bit tail happy at the limit, up to you if you like that or not. Lowering the rear roll center with a PHB or Watts link will help a lot with the feel , but the added rear grip will make the car understeer more unless you find a way to add more front grip as well.

Read up on Mustang suspensions here: Late Model Mustang Suspension Basics

Best-

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post #9 of 12 Old 11-07-2011, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jymontoya View Post
First, How much do you want to spend???

Second, Why are you running in TTB???

Unless you have a lot more power than a regular GT, I think you're going to have your work cut out for you in TTB unless you spend A LOT. I've got a friend who runs and WINS in TTC with a 2000 GT, and he's at TTD power to weight ratio... full interior and accessories save for a rear seat delete. Again, why are you running in TTB? He has custom valved Bilsteins front and rear with front MM coilovers, 350# front springs, 250-275# rear conventional springs, Bullitt sway bars, MM rear adj. height LCA's and PHB, X2 balljoints, stock UCA's (w/fresh bushings), Cobra brakes, Torsen T2r, AND THATS IT! On 255 Hoosiers, which he usually wins every weekend NASA runs at Road Atlanta, his personal best is 1:40 and change... Very fast for a car weighing 3200# and less than 260whp in TTC.

I'm going to lay it out for you like this...

Most Important first.

Spend a little -----> Spend a lot

1- H&R Race or Super Race Springs - Not sure how well those Tokico's will handle them, but easy to find out.
2- Better shocks and struts (custom valved Bilsteins are a huge bargain)
3- Front Coilovers + Better shocks and struts
4- Panhard Bar or Watts Link(if you can afford the points in TT) (with stock UCA's back in)
OR
4- Steeda 5 link (If you can afford the points in TT)
5- X2 balljoints
6- Torsen T2R

I'm assuming you've got WELDED full length Subframe connectors an aggressive track alignment with ~ -3* camber and 7* caster.

Your front sway bar may prove to be too much when going to the higher wheel rates... try a stock one or even smaller MM one, you'll gain more front grip and less understeer at the expense of a little lean.

I don't think you're far off from a much improved setup, but those soft springs and barely adequate dampers are holding you back the most. Then your HIGH rear roll center is going to make the car a bit tail happy at the limit, up to you if you like that or not. Lowering the rear roll center with a PHB or Watts link will help a lot with the feel , but the added rear grip will make the car understeer more unless you find a way to add more front grip as well.

Read up on Mustang suspensions here: Late Model Mustang Suspension Basics

Best-
#1 - I want to spend as little as possible, but will spend whatever it takes to make me happy

#2 - I'm runnign TTB b/c I'm already below the 12lbs:hp ratio regardless of points

Yes I have welded subframes and yes I have about -2.5 static camber and about 5 degrees positive caster

Read the miracerros page front and back 20 times since i bought the car. Good information, not enough direction.

I think what I'm doing is this:

steeda 5 link rear w/ stiffer rear springs
900lbs front springs
x2 ball joints
bumpsteer kit
Hoosier R6's

And back to a stock front sway bar if i need it.

I'll still be in TTB with 3 points to spare.

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post #10 of 12 Old 11-08-2011, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman429 View Post
#1 - I want to spend as little as possible, but will spend whatever it takes to make me happy

#2 - I'm runnign TTB b/c I'm already below the 12lbs:hp ratio regardless of points

Yes I have welded subframes and yes I have about -2.5 static camber and about 5 degrees positive caster

Read the miracerros page front and back 20 times since i bought the car. Good information, not enough direction.

I think what I'm doing is this:

steeda 5 link rear w/ stiffer rear springs
900lbs front springs
x2 ball joints
bumpsteer kit
Hoosier R6's

And back to a stock front sway bar if i need it.

I'll still be in TTB with 3 points to spare.

Are you supercharged or just really gutted?

You should be able to get more camber and caster, perhaps look into better CC plates. A little more here will go a long ways to improving your front end, and you'll really want it if you go with the 5 link out back. Speaking of which... you can run dumps with that OR go under the axle with the exhaust. I've seen it on a few race cars where they were tired of the insane cabin noise from dumps.

I think you're in the right direction, but those Tokicos are going to hold you back, just aren't great dampers, and that's a VERY, VERY important part.

Keep us posted how it goes!

Best-


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post #11 of 12 Old 11-08-2011, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jymontoya View Post
Are you supercharged or just really gutted?

You should be able to get more camber and caster, perhaps look into better CC plates. A little more here will go a long ways to improving your front end, and you'll really want it if you go with the 5 link out back. Speaking of which... you can run dumps with that OR go under the axle with the exhaust. I've seen it on a few race cars where they were tired of the insane cabin noise from dumps.

I think you're in the right direction, but those Tokicos are going to hold you back, just aren't great dampers, and that's a VERY, VERY important part.

Keep us posted how it goes!

Best-
Not s/c 290RWHP N/A, far from gutted too... some weight is out of the car but still have carpets, dash, headliner, center console etc...

3300lbs (with me in it) / 290 = 11.4 lbs per hp TTC limit is 12.4ish i think

Going to run dumps as well, should shed another 15lbs worth of useless tailpipes.

I plan on getting new struts once i figure out which spring rate I want... but they have to be non adjustable to avoid going to tta.... so i need to make sure i get it right!

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post #12 of 12 Old 11-09-2011, 12:43 PM
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To me, here's an ideal open track/time trial set-up for your car.
Front:
MM K-member kit with forward offset arms, delrin bushings, Bilstein race struts, with a 450# front c/o spring.

Rear:
MM Heavy Duty TA, Panhard and LCA kit with Bilstein Race shocks with a 350# rear c/o spring

What the torque arm does is locates the axle from windup during acceleration and prevents the weight of it from being transferred through the upper control arms, and instead gives it a point further up the car and helps distribute it farther which explains for the decreased nose dive.

The Panhard bar locates the axle side to side and again takes that work away from the upper control arms.
Doing the TA and PHB is the best fix for the weak rear suspension of the Mustang in my opinion.

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