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post #1 of 50 Old 09-17-2011, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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Question about torque arm springs

What are the down sides (with respect to handling, this is not a DD) of running torque arm rear springs WITHOUT actually having a torque arm on the car?

Thanks
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post #2 of 50 Old 09-17-2011, 07:44 PM
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Running a 1300-ish pound conventional spring up front to match the rear(if you have a stock front geometry).

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post #3 of 50 Old 09-17-2011, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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...and if I'm not running a spring with a high-enough rate up front, what will the car do?
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post #4 of 50 Old 09-17-2011, 09:06 PM
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You'll hafta make sure your side glass windows are clean 'cuz that's probably what you'll be looking through mostly with the rear end all over the place.
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post #5 of 50 Old 09-17-2011, 10:06 PM
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post #6 of 50 Old 09-18-2011, 11:03 AM
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Any other rear suspension mods? The reason I ask is that I don't have the T/A but do run a PM3L along with the MM PHB and their adjustable LCAs. The PM3L is rod-ended and together with the MM LC, there is no suspension bind. Thus, the rear supension is closer to T/A or 3-link like than quadra-bind like. As a result, I run T/A "light" springs - H&R Super Race. These do not exhibit the characteristics described above since the rear articulates with no built-in wheel rate caused by the binding rubber bushings. I may need to use the higher rate T/A springs at some point but right now I like the ride and handling quality.
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post #7 of 50 Old 09-18-2011, 11:42 AM
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Previously I had 400# front coil-overs with H&R Race springs in the rear. I ordered a rear coil-over kit with 325# springs as I was planning to order a torque arm and 425# front springs. Well, things got in the way so I didnt order the torque are. I was curious and installed the 325# rear coilovers with the existing 400# fronts.

As 2k2GT, you will be using your side windows a lot, haha. The rear end will be very, very loose. I removed the rear sway bar in attempts to help but it is just crazy. Pair the stupid stiff rear end with the old sensitive power steering system and the car was dangerous in high speed corners. I have 250# rear springs that should be here Tuesday.

So in summing, super stiff rear springs makes my Mustang slower around the track than my '07 Subaru Impreza 2.5i daily driver.

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post #8 of 50 Old 09-21-2011, 07:22 PM
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I drove like this for awhile and I didn't have a problem, but I guess I couldn't notice with 450 ftlbs of torque at 2500 rpm. I finally got tires that don't spin thru all the gears. Yes it rides a bit stiff.

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post #9 of 50 Old 09-21-2011, 07:37 PM
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I wouldnt waste time or money on conv springs get coilovers all the way around. One a closer spring rate to wheel rate and two unlimited combination of setups, 3 u can run alot stiffer coilovers and still have a great ride quality.

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post #10 of 50 Old 09-21-2011, 09:16 PM
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Rear coilovers are pricey though. I got height-adjustable LCA's once I settled on a spring rate and couldn't be happier.

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post #11 of 50 Old 09-22-2011, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
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Rear coilovers are pricey though. I got height-adjustable LCA's once I settled on a spring rate and couldn't be happier.
But those LCA's are really HEAVY!! I mean, c'mon....that's unsprung weight that's just a hindrance, right?
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post #12 of 50 Old 09-22-2011, 06:51 AM
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Pricey.... I bet ud spend 1200 on trickflow heads in a second but cheap out on suspension, to later on be pissed why u cant hook

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post #13 of 50 Old 09-22-2011, 07:14 AM
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Its not just about ride height adjusting, read my post

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post #14 of 50 Old 09-22-2011, 07:45 AM
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I think you missed the part of MFE's post that said "once I settled on a spring rate...".

Much like everything you purchase, you have to justify cost vs. performance. I'd say for his application, MFE made a wise decision.

I found a buyer for all my old NON-coilover stuff, and I was able to justify the cost to go with coilovers.
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post #15 of 50 Old 09-23-2011, 06:45 AM
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I've got the MM R&T Box with TA/PHB and using H&R Race springs on the front with Super Race on the rear. Was a little bit pushy still but increased camber to 2 1/2 and it's better now. I wonder if going up on the rear sway bar would balance it out?

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post #16 of 50 Old 09-23-2011, 11:39 AM
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A tech at Maximum Motorsports told me not to get rear coil overs if I was going with a 275lb front coil-over. He recommended matching that with their H&R Super Race rear spring. Apparently the matching rear coil over would be too soft and cause issues. He recommended the "lighter" torque arm spring if I went with 300lb or more on the front. I am not sure at what point in front spring rate he would recommend rear coil overs.

I will not go over 275 up front due to the fact that it will hurt drag launches and I want a decent street ride. I am hoping this will be a good street/strip/track compromise. Supporting with Koni SA dampers and I really want the Extreme Duty adjustable rear control arms but they are pricey. They have spherical ends on both sides and I really want the ride height adjustability.

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post #17 of 50 Old 09-30-2011, 01:48 PM
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Strange. I inquired the same question when I was running 475# front coilovers (Koni DAs) and Bilstein BTS rear springs (had a big push), and MM told me to NEVER use either Torque Arm spring set without a torque arm. The words "driving on glass" were said.

I settled on the H&R Race rears (and custom valved Bilsteins to match) with 400# front coilovers... Though I'd probably do the Super Race rears if given the chance again... but the rates are really close, so a slight change in driving style can make each work just as well. I've got a close friend running NASA TTC and winning! with 350# fronts and 250-275# rears... Bullitt bars and custom valved Bilstein HD's to match. So if anything, I'd say I should probably try gaining more grip in the front with softer springs than loosening the rear with stiffer ones.

Of course... YEMV...

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post #18 of 50 Old 10-03-2011, 10:17 AM
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I wonder if he recommended the stiffer rear springs for me because he knew it was primarily a drag car? Do you know the spring rates for the Super Race rear H&R's? MM said they would be a good match for a 275lb front coil over.
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post #19 of 50 Old 10-03-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need-a-cage View Post
Do you know the spring rates for the Super Race rear H&R's? MM said they would be a good match for a 275lb front coil over.
The H&R Super Race are 260-300# progressive. I'm running them with 300# C/Os but have a rod-ended PM3L in the rear which has no bind. Thus, I also needed to reduce the size of my front bar (used MM's piece) and increased the rear bar (MM's adjustable .75" solid bar). Seems to be pretty good compromise for street comfort and for autox (this car will never see the drag strip), although I want to try one-step stiffer in the rear to see if that helps the car rotate better.
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post #20 of 50 Old 10-03-2011, 11:19 AM
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That doesn't seem too stiff. I think I will go with Chuck's (MM tech) recommendation and try it. I'll probably wait to remove any of the uppers until I can afford to go all out and put the torque arm and panhard bar on it. I'm not sure how the PM3L will do with high horsepower drag launches. Hopefully replacing my poly bushed lowers with the spherical bushed MM lowers will help reduce some of the bind.

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post #21 of 50 Old 10-07-2011, 04:29 PM
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How about some feedback on this: setting my car up for winter (snow) and I'm taking the coilovers off. TA + PH bar setup is going to stay, and I'm thinking about going with MM's 'soft' TA rear springs - listed at 375-440 lbs/in.

If I run a conventional spring in the front at 800 lbs/in, is it going to be too twitchy? Stock sway bars front and rear. Struts + shocks will by KYB AGX.

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post #22 of 50 Old 10-07-2011, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanFab View Post
How about some feedback on this: setting my car up for winter (snow) and I'm taking the coilovers off. TA + PH bar setup is going to stay, and I'm thinking about going with MM's 'soft' TA rear springs - listed at 375-440 lbs/in.

If I run a conventional spring in the front at 800 lbs/in, is it going to be too twitchy? Stock sway bars front and rear. Struts + shocks will by KYB AGX.
Front wheel rate with the conventional 800# spring will be 200#. Rear wheel rate with the conventional 375-440# progressive will average approximately 204#. I think the better approach would be a slightly lighter rear spring assuming the 800# front is as much as you want to go. But it might work as stated. On my car I'm running a lighter rear wheel rate spring with an adjustable bar to compensate if needed.
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post #23 of 50 Old 10-10-2011, 11:12 AM
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Mine is ready for the winter now. It is parked in the garage with the cover on it. However, the weather is still good here so it should be headed to the drag strip on Wednesday.
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post #24 of 50 Old 10-10-2011, 05:10 PM
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What about having a T/A without T/A springs? I'm planing on going with H&R Race springs, but a T/A probably next year.

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post #25 of 50 Old 10-10-2011, 05:22 PM
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What about having a T/A without T/A springs? I'm planing on going with H&R Race springs, but a T/A probably next year.
Just got my TA on the other day and I still have the H&R races all around. Figured the stiffer TA springs I bought to match my coilovers would be a disaster with the races up front. Just from spirited street driving I can tell the rear needs more spring. The car isn't an understeer machine or anything but the rear body roll feels ridiculous now.

Actually I just noticed that MM recommends the stiffer TA springs with a 900lb+ front stock location. I have 850 and a big front bar so maybe it would be ok with the TA springs now. Will have to try.

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post #26 of 50 Old 10-10-2011, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanFab View Post
How about some feedback on this: setting my car up for winter (snow) and I'm taking the coilovers off. TA + PH bar setup is going to stay, and I'm thinking about going with MM's 'soft' TA rear springs - listed at 375-440 lbs/in.

If I run a conventional spring in the front at 800 lbs/in, is it going to be too twitchy? Stock sway bars front and rear. Struts + shocks will by KYB AGX.
Vanfab - Hope you're doing well. Do a heavy breaking test with the AGX shocks. I MAJOR axle hop when I ran the soft springs w/ cheap Monroe's (not to say anything about the AGXs). You may be better off with the Bilsteins. Since, it only takes minutes to change, it shouldn't be a hassle. Better to find out the valving is all wrong under controlled conditions than in an emergency.

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post #27 of 50 Old 10-10-2011, 06:44 PM
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What about having a T/A without T/A springs? I'm planing on going with H&R Race springs, but a T/A probably next year.
I ran the H&R Super Race with my MM PHB and M5500A uppers before going to my PM3L set-up. With the 300# C/Os up front, the ride was pretty harsh due to the rear upper bind. Also, was a little prone to oversteer with those springs and the stock bars front and rear despite .5" spacers in the rear. As soon as I swaped out the FRPP uppers for the PM3L, BIG change in ride quality. I also switched to MMs adjustable rear bar and smaller front bar. However, I also lowered the car a little more and almost immediately found rear bind again during some auto-x events; snap oversteer was unbelievible. Once I figured out why I was binding the rear again, I raised the car and then for the first time began to see what a real suspension can do handling wise for the car. Huge improvement. At this time, I think the H&R Super Race are enough spring, but want to try more rear bar. Car is down at the moment due to the loss of my fuel-pump and pickup when the tank baffle cut loose and took-out those items.
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post #28 of 50 Old 10-10-2011, 07:07 PM
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Good info....

I do plan on going to Coil Overs in the front next winter, so maybe I'll go with the T/A springs then.

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post #29 of 50 Old 10-19-2011, 09:50 PM
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Front wheel rate with the conventional 800# spring will be 200#. Rear wheel rate with the conventional 375-440# progressive will average approximately 204#. I think the better approach would be a slightly lighter rear spring assuming the 800# front is as much as you want to go. But it might work as stated. On my car I'm running a lighter rear wheel rate spring with an adjustable bar to compensate if needed.
Thanks for the input! After talking with Jason at MM again, I was surprised to learn they do offer the H&R Super Race rears-only, and at a reasonable price. So, I'm going go with those for winter and pair them with a 695 lb/in conventional spring in front. Should be a more forgiving setup, and one the KYBs are more suited to handle (hopefully).

Quote:
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Vanfab - Hope you're doing well. Do a heavy breaking test with the AGX shocks. I MAJOR axle hop when I ran the soft springs w/ cheap Monroe's (not to say anything about the AGXs). You may be better off with the Bilsteins. Since, it only takes minutes to change, it shouldn't be a hassle. Better to find out the valving is all wrong under controlled conditions than in an emergency.
Hey jfranci3! I'll be sure to put 'em through the paces. Like you said, if they're not enough, I can remove the coilover setup from the HDs and run those. I had a set of AGXs on my old Subie with pretty stiff Prodrive springs, so I have high expectations.

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post #30 of 50 Old 11-22-2011, 10:20 PM
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Sorry to bump this thread, but I have a spring rate question for my setup.

Coilovers up front with 200 lb spring
Eibach sway bars
Griggs Torque Arm and Fays2 Watts link (not installed yet, spring 2012 upgrade).

I have this rear spring setup on my car, with a 250 lb spring currently. What spring rate will I need with the Torque Arm?
Pictures used as reference, as my setup is the same.



Trying to get my ducks in order for next spring/summer.

Appreciate the help!
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post #31 of 50 Old 11-24-2011, 11:12 AM
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Front wheel rate with 200# C/Os will be about 180#; rear wheel rate with those conventionally mounted 250# C/O springs will be about 125#. As stated above, with my PM3L there is very little bind similar to the full T/A set-up. I'm running H&R Super Race conventionals in the rear with an average wheel rate of about 140#, but have 300# front C/Os (270# wheel rate) with a much wider track at both ends than a stock Fox chassis. Ride quality is pretty good and F/R traction during aggressive turns is well balanced, but perhaps could use a little more rear rate at the limit (I'll use an adjustable rear bar for that). After the T/A is installed on your car and all the rest being left as is, I think your car will ride as if on a pillow, body roll and push in corners.
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post #32 of 50 Old 11-24-2011, 03:34 PM
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Front wheel rate with 200# C/Os will be about 180#; rear wheel rate with those conventionally mounted 250# C/O springs will be about 125#. As stated above, with my PM3L there is very little bind similar to the full T/A set-up. I'm running H&R Super Race conventionals in the rear with an average wheel rate of about 140#, but have 300# front C/Os (270# wheel rate) with a much wider track at both ends than a stock Fox chassis. Ride quality is pretty good and F/R traction during aggressive turns is well balanced, but perhaps could use a little more rear rate at the limit (I'll use an adjustable rear bar for that). After the T/A is installed on your car and all the rest being left as is, I think your car will ride as if on a pillow, body roll and push in corners.
So I would have to upgrade the front springs as well? What spring rates should I need?
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post #33 of 50 Old 11-24-2011, 09:08 PM
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I am running 350/250 F/R with a PM3L on coilovers all 4.

Convert that over to wheel rate. This is what MM suggested (100lb/inch spread front / rear).
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post #34 of 50 Old 11-24-2011, 09:35 PM
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Where'd you get the upper seats for those coil springs? Those are too cool!

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post #35 of 50 Old 11-24-2011, 11:02 PM
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Where'd you get the upper seats for those coil springs? Those are too cool!
They are part of the Eibach Pro Street Coil-over kit. Got the complete kit gently used from a friend who was turning his car into a drag car at well below bargain basement pricing.
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