99-04 VS. Foxbody. Pro's and Cons???? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 31 Old 08-15-2011, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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99-04 VS. Foxbody. Pro's and Cons????

I'm collecting parts for another car. I recently aquired the complete 04 Cobra front and rear suspension w/ the factory bilstiens and the black H&R's. I was thinking about a 86 coupe because I love the body-style, but I fear making the IRS fit in a fox will limit my tires size.

It will not be my daily driver and will be used for 75% autocross 25% street. Would it be worth the extra weight of the 99-04's to get the larger tire set-up? What are some other pro's and con's of them vs the fox. Keeping in mind that I'll be running a 300hp 302 with a tremec in either body!


Starting soon: 98 PI Swap/3650, IRS, ABS 6-piston Brembo, (possibly 4-eyed) 92 coupe.
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post #2 of 31 Old 08-15-2011, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jeb View Post
I'm collecting parts for another car. I recently aquired the complete 04 Cobra front and rear suspension w/ the factory bilstiens and the black H&R's. I was thinking about a 86 coupe because I love the body-style, but I fear making the IRS fit in a fox will limit my tires size.

It will not be my daily driver and will be used for 75% autocross 25% street. Would it be worth the extra weight of the 99-04's to get the larger tire set-up? What are some other pro's and con's of them vs the fox. Keeping in mind that I'll be running a 300hp 302 with a tremec in either body!
What class are you shooting for? I'm kinda guessing Street Mod with the swapping of an IRS and the addition of a 302...

Fox Pros:
- Lighter (probably the biggest pro)
- You could do IRS or a Steeda 5 link (you can't do a TA in SM)
- IRS might be an interesting fit by putting weight back in the right place

Fox Cons:
- Tire size is more limited (but you could probably flare and fit 295s you can replace fenders)
- IRS would probably limit tire size

The 99-02 is pretty much in inverse of the Fox pro/cons above


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post #3 of 31 Old 08-19-2011, 08:34 PM
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I own both an 86 GT Vert and an 01 Cobra Vert; I've autocrossed both of them. For comparison purposes, the 86 does not have stock suspension while the Cobra pretty much does. Besides the sn95 5-lug Cobras brakes, the 86 is running the longer sn95 a-arms, MM Bilstein 300# C/Os, MM bumpsteer kit, MM sta-bar, MM CC plates and STB up front. In the rear I have MM adjustable-height LCAs, MM PHB, rod-ended PM3L, MM adjustable sta-bar, H&R Super Race conventionals with Bilsteins and .5" spacers on each axle to increase rear track width. The Cobra has H&R Super Sport conventionals all around, Bilsteins all around and KB STB and CC plates up front. The rest of Cobra's suspension and IRS are all stock including bushing material. The 86 has a stock motor and 5-speed with 3.27s out back. The Cobra has some minor mods and 3.55s. The 86 has standard KB SFCs and a g-load brace; the Cobra has KB SFCs with matrix brace and jacking rails and the stock g-load brace. Both cars run Cobra wheels shod with Hankook Ventas Evo V12s: 245/45/17s on the 86; 255/40/17s on the Cobra.

I prefer the 86 over the Cobra in autocrosses despite the Cobra's power advantage and anti-lock brakes. It's "fit" and "control" for me. I feel as though the old Fox fits me better, I can see the track better, and I have a better feel for the car's dimensions and where it is on course. I also believe that with the above suspension mods, the 86 is equal to or superior to the Cobra's suspension. Besides, the IRS in stock trim leaves a lot to be desired. It tends to squat on streight-line exceleration (axle tramps really bad) and/or goes max camber (both negative and possitive) in corners. Both of these characteristcs cause the tires to go to the edge and lose traction. To be fair, since I run the Fox much more, I'm also more familair with it so I suppose with enough seat time and perhaps additional mods, the Cobra might be a better handler but I have my doubts. Just something to consider.
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post #4 of 31 Old 08-20-2011, 07:44 AM
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What class are you shooting for? I'm kinda guessing Street Mod with the swapping of an IRS and the addition of a 302...
Not 100% sure on this, but I think a 302/IRS car could be legal for ESP if you pick your mods carefully.

1994-2004 is listed on one line for Street Prepared, and applying update/backdate gives you a lot of options - 302, 4.6 2V, 4.6 4V, 5.4 4V, 3550, 3650, T56, 3.55 gears, rear seat delete, etc.

If your region offers a street tire index, 'TESP' should slot in somewhere between STX and STU!

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post #5 of 31 Old 08-20-2011, 12:20 PM
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Went through the same debate and bought a 94. Newer platform, most everything bolts on, 275's are not an issue. I was looking at another Fox, but the newer platform is so much stiffer I couldn't justify the extra effort and expenses for the fox. If you have the entire the front and rear setup already the 95/95 might be a cost effective option.

I also wanted to run a sbf based platform for road racing so that pushed me. Might not be your direction, but is a simple and cost effective option.

Just my $.02
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post #6 of 31 Old 08-21-2011, 12:41 AM
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I'll let you know in a month. I have a fox with a MM road track kit and a vortech. and my DD is a 01 cobra that was stock and is the current item being redone. Built IRS, new front suspesion parts, LSFC, and a Eaton swap.

With the IRS and leather interior it is going to be close, but the fox still feels easier to get on the edge with.

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post #7 of 31 Old 08-21-2011, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanFab View Post
Not 100% sure on this, but I think a 302/IRS car could be legal for ESP if you pick your mods carefully.

1994-2004 is listed on one line for Street Prepared, and applying update/backdate gives you a lot of options - 302, 4.6 2V, 4.6 4V, 5.4 4V, 3550, 3650, T56, 3.55 gears, rear seat delete, etc.

If your region offers a street tire index, 'TESP' should slot in somewhere between STX and STU!
So 94-04 are all interchangable setups? i thought it was only 99-04 explain if this is true, because if so then you can also run a 351w technically because of the cobra R in 95 correct? and also for ESP your allowed a T/A i'm pretty sure. Also ESP doesnt allow rear seat deletes unless I guess you count some year of mustang that has it as factory, then which one? because i'm pretty sure the 00 Cobra r isnt even allowed to run or has a class set
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post #8 of 31 Old 08-21-2011, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Boss002 View Post
So 94-04 are all interchangable setups? i thought it was only 99-04 explain if this is true, because if so then you can also run a 351w technically because of the cobra R in 95 correct? and also for ESP your allowed a T/A i'm pretty sure. Also ESP doesnt allow rear seat deletes unless I guess you count some year of mustang that has it as factory, then which one? because i'm pretty sure the 00 Cobra r isnt even allowed to run or has a class set
You answered your own questions. You can run a 351 (as long as it's the same spec as the one in the Cobra R). By the same token, you can also run a rear seat delete, thanks to the Cobra R. Of course this is only if the car in question is '94-'04. You can run a torque arm as long as you don't attach it to your subframe connectors (good luck with that). Sometimes the rulebook is your friend, sometimes it isn't

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post #9 of 31 Old 08-22-2011, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Boss002 View Post
So 94-04 are all interchangable setups? i thought it was only 99-04 explain if this is true, because if so then you can also run a 351w technically because of the cobra R in 95 correct? and also for ESP your allowed a T/A i'm pretty sure. Also ESP doesnt allow rear seat deletes unless I guess you count some year of mustang that has it as factory, then which one? because i'm pretty sure the 00 Cobra r isnt even allowed to run or has a class set
According to the 2011 SCCA rules for ESP, all 94-04 Mustangs, including the Rs (95 and 00), are on the same line. That should mean that the IRS, 351, 5.4, Brembo brakes, T56, aluminum D/S, seat delete, Recaros, etc. can be put on any of the chassis using the update/backdate rules. However, as mentioned above the specs need to be the same as the factory unit and the unit (e.g., 5.4 '00 Cobra motor) must be installed as a complete component.
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post #10 of 31 Old 08-22-2011, 10:19 AM
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Note to self: go back to rear seat delete, and build up a cobra r spec 351 since the 5.4 4v setup would be expensive


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post #11 of 31 Old 08-22-2011, 10:36 AM
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Last quick question on that, because esp allows intake manifold modifications do you not have to run the rare 00 intake setup or the gt40 on the 95 r?

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post #12 of 31 Old 08-22-2011, 12:44 PM
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Note to self: go back to rear seat delete, and build up a cobra r spec 351 since the 5.4 4v setup would be expensive
not just any rear seat delete though. Cobra r seat delete. Good luck...
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post #13 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 08:18 AM
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I weighed that option (literally) and came out deciding not to go with a 95 R drivetrain and go to ESP. The PAX index for ESP isn't that far away from SM anyway LOL. The 95 R motor is an iron GT-40 headed 351. Plus I'd have to either lose my Alcons, or find where an S-351 Saleen fits into all of it.
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post #14 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 08:39 AM
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My understanding of update/backdate:

You have to change EVERYTHING to that model.

95 Cobra R - Cobra spec engine, rear seat delete, bodywork, any other small items that were Cobra R specific.

This is why 95 Miata R packages still demand a premium, because they had some items that made them lighter and better for stock autocross classes.

As for torque arms in ESP/SM - they ARE legal, but you can't attach them to the subframe connectors. I'm wondering if I could have a custom TA built that would tie in to the subframe connector mounting area without attaching to the subframe connectors. I think I need to weigh this against the purchase price of a Steeda 5 link 2.

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post #15 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 08:47 AM
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I thought it was the major item, and any other small items that are required to install it, for example, installing an 03 Cobra IRS requires notching the rear mounting area on an SN95, so the notching is allowed to the extent necessary to complete the installation.
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post #16 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTCobra347 View Post
I thought it was the major item, and any other small items that are required to install it, for example, installing an 03 Cobra IRS requires notching the rear mounting area on an SN95, so the notching is allowed to the extent necessary to complete the installation.
I'm not 100% sure. Heck, I'm not sure the SCCA is 100% sure. I've spoken and traded emails with Doug Gill and he seems to know the rulebook and what works and what doesn't. It might be good to email him and get an 'official' ruling before doing anything. If I have a custom torque arm mount, I am going to run it by him before having anything done. IF (big IF) I ever got this car (uh and driver) competitive and showed up at a regional/national event, it sure would be nice to pull out an email with pictures with an okay on my fabricated TA...

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post #17 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dpspeed View Post
My understanding of update/backdate:

You have to change EVERYTHING to that model.

95 Cobra R - Cobra spec engine, rear seat delete, bodywork, any other small items that were Cobra R specific.

This is why 95 Miata R packages still demand a premium, because they had some items that made them lighter and better for stock autocross classes.

As for torque arms in ESP/SM - they ARE legal, but you can't attach them to the subframe connectors. I'm wondering if I could have a custom TA built that would tie in to the subframe connector mounting area without attaching to the subframe connectors. I think I need to weigh this against the purchase price of a Steeda 5 link 2.
Nope. The update/backdate rule you describe above only applies to STOCK class. In STREET PREPARED, you can pick and choose any equipment options or combinations from vehicles on the same line in the rulebook.

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post #18 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 10:49 AM
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Cool. Thanks for the clarification. So, when my 4.6L eventually goes...replace with 351, then I can move back to ESP...dang supercharger (I'm not actually complaining

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post #19 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
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I'm not 100% sure. Heck, I'm not sure the SCCA is 100% sure. I've spoken and traded emails with Doug Gill and he seems to know the rulebook and what works and what doesn't. It might be good to email him and get an 'official' ruling before doing anything. If I have a custom torque arm mount, I am going to run it by him before having anything done. IF (big IF) I ever got this car (uh and driver) competitive and showed up at a regional/national event, it sure would be nice to pull out an email with pictures with an okay on my fabricated TA...

Maybe we need to start petitioning to make the TA mounting legal as delivered from MM. In all reality, there is only that option or the 5 link for adding a PHB and not having bushing troubles. IMO it's safer to do the TA than a PHB/quadrabind.
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post #20 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 02:52 PM
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Maybe we need to start petitioning to make the TA mounting legal as delivered from MM. In all reality, there is only that option or the 5 link for adding a PHB and not having bushing troubles. IMO it's safer to do the TA than a PHB/quadrabind.
I agree. I'll email Doug to find out what we need to do to petition this. From what I've read, Street Mod numbers are down across the US. This might help bring the numbers back up. There are a ton of underprepared CP cars out there because they've done the TA.

Honestly, I think it would be just helping the Mustang be more competitive, but the National Champ in SM has either been a 300 whp BMW or AWD Evo...both lighter and with better suspensions. TA might help to close that gap and 200 more rwhp and 295s - 315s

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post #21 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 04:35 PM
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What was the decision process regarding the EvM Tri-link? I thought ultimately it was determined to be a "traction" device similar in concept to the T/A without the mounting issues. I'd argue the PM3L with rod-ends like mine (Eric's and Mathis' designs are similar) is doing exactly the same thing - keeping the axle from rotating. Moreover, unlike the EvM piece, there are no additional chassis components. It does have "metal" bushings but so did the Tri-link. Thus, I'd think the rod-ended PM3L would be legal in a similar fashion. And the thing works without bind.
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post #22 of 31 Old 08-23-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
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I agree. I'll email Doug to find out what we need to do to petition this. From what I've read, Street Mod numbers are down across the US. This might help bring the numbers back up. There are a ton of underprepared CP cars out there because they've done the TA.

Honestly, I think it would be just helping the Mustang be more competitive, but the National Champ in SM has either been a 300 whp BMW or AWD Evo...both lighter and with better suspensions. TA might help to close that gap and 200 more rwhp and 295s - 315s

David
You start by writing a letter to the SEB (Solo Events Board) here:

SEB Letter Submission Form

Then it gets reviewed by this committee and that committee. . . then if deemed worthy it gets posted in SCCA Fast Track for member review and comment . . . surviving that it gets in the rulebook. Process takes several months.

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post #23 of 31 Old 08-24-2011, 12:38 AM
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Last quick question on that, because esp allows intake manifold modifications do you not have to run the rare 00 intake setup or the gt40 on the 95 r?
Correct. You can even run a carb if you want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011 Solo Rules
15.10.C
1. Carburetors, fuel injection, and intake manifolds are unrestricted,
subject to 15.10.D. Alternate throttle linkage and connections to
facilitate installation of allowed induction systems are permitted,
but may serve no other purpose. If an induction system item is
allowed to be removed and its original mounting bracket can be
removed by simply unbolting it, the bracket may be removed as
well.

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post #24 of 31 Old 08-24-2011, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SVTCobra347 View Post
I weighed that option (literally) and came out deciding not to go with a 95 R drivetrain and go to ESP. The PAX index for ESP isn't that far away from SM anyway LOL. The 95 R motor is an iron GT-40 headed 351. Plus I'd have to either lose my Alcons, or find where an S-351 Saleen fits into all of it.
2011 PAX
STX 0.824
STU 0.838
ESP 0.846
CP 0.860
SM 0.869

If you're in SM now, moving to ESP would get you almost 1.4 seconds on a sixty second course!

Also, why would you have to change your brakes?

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post #25 of 31 Old 08-24-2011, 01:07 AM
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This is a great thread about the SN95 in ESP!
http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/for...57/scope/posts

There is some proven setup information in there, including aluminum heads for the 351W that are allowed via a TSB.

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post #26 of 31 Old 08-24-2011, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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If the update/backdate let's you interchange sn95 and 99-04, why does it not apply to the foxbodies? They are all fox chassis.

Starting soon: 98 PI Swap/3650, IRS, ABS 6-piston Brembo, (possibly 4-eyed) 92 coupe.
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post #27 of 31 Old 08-25-2011, 07:15 PM
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A light car on 275s will kill a heavy car on 315s, especially if you only have 300 hp. I'd change the K-member in your 92 to a modified stocker, put a decent rear suspension in it, stiff springs, and run CP. With a bit of fender work 275s will fit on the 92. But if you want to build something new, build the 86.

I ran a 92 for a long time in various trims. Got to the point where I don't autocross any more and I wanted a street car with AC so I went to a 95. I miss the light weight and simple tuning of the 92.

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post #28 of 31 Old 08-25-2011, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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"A light car on 275s will kill a heavy car on 315s, especially if you only have 300 hp. I'd change the K-member in your 92 to a modified stocker, put a decent rear suspension in it, stiff springs, and run CP. With a bit of fender work 275s will fit on the 92. But if you want to build something new, build the 86."

I thought about staying with the 92. A nice set of 95 Cobra "R"s would give me 275's and clear a set of 00' "R" Brembos.

I am still unclear on why the update/backdate rule doesnt apply to the IRS in a foxbody.

Also, what do mean by modifying a stock K-member?

Starting soon: 98 PI Swap/3650, IRS, ABS 6-piston Brembo, (possibly 4-eyed) 92 coupe.
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post #29 of 31 Old 08-26-2011, 01:06 AM
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I am still unclear on why the update/backdate rule doesnt apply to the IRS in a foxbody.
The simple answer is...that's the way the rules are written. 1979-1993 is listed on one line, 1994-2004 is listed on another.

From the 2011 rulebook, page 182:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011 Solo Rules
Mustang, SVO, Cobra, Cobra R
(1979-93) & Capri (1979-86)
(4-cyl Turbo, V6, & V8)

Mustang (SN95 chassis, NOC
including Cobra & Cobra R)
(1994-2004)
So, it seems a fox body does get access to five lug and rear seat delete - through the 1993 Cobra R. But to get the 351 and other stuff, the rules need to be changed.

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post #30 of 31 Old 08-26-2011, 01:15 AM
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I am still unclear on why the update/backdate rule doesnt apply to the IRS in a foxbody.
Because nobody has written a letter to get it changed. So write a letter to the SCCA SEB (Solo Events Board). Get it changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeb

Also, what do mean by modifying a stock K-member?
Raise the front arm pivot points about 2". It improves the camber curve as well as roll center. The improvement in front grip is nothing short of astonishing. That, in combination with 2" drop spindles (e.g. Racecraft), and you will have something like a "poor man's SLA" where camber actually gets more negative with spring compression.

more info: modifying stock K member

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post #31 of 31 Old 09-15-2011, 05:26 PM
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ohhh I like the idea of a poor mans SLA
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