poly vs delrin A arm bushings - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 34 Old 04-19-2011, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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poly vs delrin A arm bushings

Searched and can't find anything. Would there be an appreciable difference between the poly and delrin bushings in MM A arms on a autox/hpde car running street tires?


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post #2 of 34 Old 04-19-2011, 12:40 PM
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Get the delrin.

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post #3 of 34 Old 04-19-2011, 03:08 PM
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delrin less flex, better suited for Racing, more NVH on the streets

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post #4 of 34 Old 04-19-2011, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by EscortSportage View Post
more NVH on the streets
According to whose specific experience?
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post #5 of 34 Old 04-19-2011, 05:38 PM
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How much less flex are we talking? The reason I ask is because the delrin stuff from MM is quite a bit more expensive than the poly.
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post #6 of 34 Old 04-20-2011, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MFE View Post
According to whose specific experience?
I switched to the GW delrin bushings on my stock arms and there is some more NVH than the stock bushings. Lots of factors here, but I can say that its not a harsh as you might thing and I would probably do it again.....

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post #7 of 34 Old 04-23-2011, 05:58 AM
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My car went from stock k-member and control arms with MM Bilstein coilovers to full MM k-member, forward offset control arms and Delrin busing. No increase in NVH. The increased accuracy of the car is a welcome side effect though. lol

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post #8 of 34 Old 04-24-2011, 09:43 AM
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Delrin all the way. I know the Global West version works great with no real noise issues. I made my own at first with teflon bushings on aluminum pins and they squeaked like a mofo. Switched to GW delrin and never looked back.

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post #9 of 34 Old 04-24-2011, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by EscortSportage View Post
delrin less flex, better suited for Racing, more NVH on the streets
What is NVH? I know I am stupid
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post #10 of 34 Old 04-24-2011, 05:10 PM
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What is NVH? I know I am stupid
Noise, Vibration, and Harshness

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post #11 of 34 Old 04-24-2011, 05:51 PM
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Noise, Vibration, and Harshness
Thanks
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post #12 of 34 Old 04-25-2011, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
Delrin all the way. I know the Global West version works great with no real noise issues. I made my own at first with teflon bushings on aluminum pins and they squeaked like a mofo. Switched to GW delrin and never looked back.
I should clarify my earlier point a bit as this is a great point. My GW delrin setup doesnt squeak or make any noise like for example heim joints as they are zerk greasable, but it does transmit a bit more harshness to the chassis. Washboard crappy concrete for example will obviously be transmitted more clearly though to the steering wheel and seat. Not that big of a deal, but it is a small factor. It is a decent tradeoff for a better suspention if you can live with this.

Also, I didnt notice the difference with the rear GW lowers as much as the front A-Arm bushings in terms of this NVH. I also have solid rack bushing and a steering shaft without the rag joint which might account for more observed NVH than a stock setup.

In terms of NVH our cars came out of factory environment where (for example) a extra 25lb weight was worthy of installation for a small reduction in NVH, not to mention rubber on every hard mounted steering and suspention component.

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post #13 of 34 Old 04-26-2011, 12:25 PM
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So is the delrin really worth the cost? Would any one be able to tell the difference (performance wise) in a blind test drive back to back?

Last edited by rickyll7; 04-28-2011 at 11:53 AM.
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post #14 of 34 Old 04-28-2011, 08:35 AM
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So is the delrin really worth the cost? Would any one be able to tell the difference in a blind test drive back to back?
I can only comment on the difference from rubber to solid since I never tried the urethane type. When I did mine I had not done the other mods that DID create additional NVH. The only change I noticed was an increase in steering response. I did not notice much if any additional noise. I purchased my GW bushings for not much difference than Steeda urethane but made no other comparisons in price.

After installing CC plates, firmer rack bushings, and rod end sway bar links the NVH picked up considerably and I can say those changes made the car not as nice to drive on the street but all paid dividends in handling.

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post #15 of 34 Old 04-28-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
I can only comment on the difference from rubber to solid since I never tried the urethane type. When I did mine I had not done the other mods that DID create additional NVH. The only change I noticed was an increase in steering response. I did not notice much if any additional noise. I purchased my GW bushings for not much difference than Steeda urethane but made no other comparisons in price.

After installing CC plates, firmer rack bushings, and rod end sway bar links the NVH picked up considerably and I can say those changes made the car not as nice to drive on the street but all paid dividends in handling.
I meant to specify any differences in performance for the delrin. (edited my post above to clarify)
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post #16 of 34 Old 05-02-2011, 01:23 PM
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Curious about this too. I have poly in the factory arms of both my stangs. I plan on A-arms in my fox but have wondered which material to go with.

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post #17 of 34 Old 05-02-2011, 03:02 PM
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You will never feel the difference in performance. The idea of course is that several small non-noticeable changes will make a noticeable cumulative difference.
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post #18 of 34 Old 05-03-2011, 01:49 PM
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You will never feel the difference in performance. The idea of course is that several small non-noticeable changes will make a noticeable cumulative difference.
Sure, but if every small non-noticeable change costs alot of money, is it really worth it? I'm sure we all agree that the delrin is better in theory, but are they better enough to justify the cost of the change? The answer is different for everyone, but knowing what the change in performance is helps everyone make their decsision.

To me, I don't want to spend that kind of money if I can't tell the difference. There are many other things I could spend that money on that will have a noticeable difference on their own.

Would be cool if we could somehow quantify the change beyond the fact that it helps, but you would never know it.
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post #19 of 34 Old 05-03-2011, 11:36 PM
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According to whose specific experience?
I will agree with him.

I had the Full Tilt Boogie kit,(which I fully promote and think is a awesome must have upgrade for IRS Mustangs) and when I installed it I decided not to install grease fitting. Very poor decision on my part. It's performance was always great, and I loved the way it improved the IRS, but after about 8 or 9 months of daily street driving it started squeaking like crazy with every single little motion of the suspension. Again it didn't hurt their performance, but the constant squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak, squeak from the dry bushings would drive you crazy.

I'm sure if I installed grease fittings with them, and greased them regularly that it wouldn't have been an issue though, but I installed them about 4 years ago when they were just starting to get popular and people weren't acting like the grease fittings were something that should be mandatory.

With that said yes no doubt about it Delrin > Poly
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post #20 of 34 Old 05-03-2011, 11:57 PM
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That sure doesn't sound like a fault of the material.
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post #21 of 34 Old 05-04-2011, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitrous SSC View Post
Curious about this too. I have poly in the factory arms of both my stangs. I plan on A-arms in my fox but have wondered which material to go with.
Maybe MM can chime in and give us some insight as to the benefits of their delrin arms over their poly arms. Due to the cost difference, I would expect a pretty significant gain in performance or reliability or something, but it seems no one can quantify it or even attest to being able to tell any difference at all in performance from delrin vs poly. Plenty have spoke about delrin vs stock, but not delrin vs poly in regards to any specific performance gain that I saw.

Edit:

The kind of info that would be great would be a specific reduction in wheel rate due to less friction.

Also would be nice to define what the gain in performance is due to the stiffer composition. I would expect it would be possible to define this through some change in suspesion alignment stability under hard braking or cornering vs stock rubber and vs poly depending on what compound tires are used to generate the stopping and cornering forces.

Last edited by rickyll7; 05-04-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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post #22 of 34 Old 05-04-2011, 07:57 PM
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All I know is Wayne on our forum has EVERYTHING from MM on his fox and he went delrin and said if he hits a small piece of gravel in the road he feels it in his spine. He recommended I avoid it unless I plan on total track duty with it. You should check out his car sometime, its pure road race sex.

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post #23 of 34 Old 05-04-2011, 09:14 PM
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Anybody who thinks Delrin bushings in their front end makes it ride bad has something else going on making it ride bad. They may transmit more road noise if your car is actually quiet enough inside to hear it, but they don't contribute to ride harshness unless there's something seriously, catastrophically wrong with the install. In fact they eliminate a source of jiggling that we perceive as harshness in the ride. Now, moreso than poly? technically yes. Perceptably? Maybe not.
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post #24 of 34 Old 05-05-2011, 01:46 AM
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There is some equivocation going on in this thread that makes it difficult for people to make sense of the bushing material comparisons being made.

If you are going to compare bushing material A to material B, you need to keep all of the other variables constant. This means the volume of material (geometry of bushing) must be the same. Comparing Delrin bushings in stock FCAs to polyurethane bushings in MM FCAs is invalid. The bushings have vastly different volumes of material. Think of this as a limit problem in Calculus. As the volume of material in the bushing approaches zero, all materials behave exactly the same. The less thickness of material is in a bushing, for a given material, the stiffer the bushing is going to be.

Polyurethane has more friction, it cold flows, and has less mechanical strength than Delrin. Delrin is self lubricating, has less friction, more mechanical strength, doesn't cold flow and is stiffer. The Delrin bushing will last much longer since it doesn't cold flow and has higher mechanical strength. It will transmit more noise and harshness since it is stiffer. The ride quality will be better, because it has less friction. This allows the suspension to move more freely over small bumps.

Any road noise that gets to the driver has to go through several series elements in the car. Tire to hub to spindle to ball joint to FCA to bushing to k-member to chassis to seat to driver as an example. If all of the items in that list are very stiff except one, when you replace that last item with a stiff one, the noise and harshness is going to go up a lot. However, it doesn't really make sense to say that the last item installed caused a lot of NVH.

Since virtually everything experienced by the driver goes through the tires, they have the single largest effect on NVH. Their NVH characteristics change quite a bit with air pressure and a lot from new to old tire as the rubber wears away. Without using the same tires, at the same air pressure and tread depth, you can't make good NVH comparisons.

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post #25 of 34 Old 05-05-2011, 12:27 PM
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Thanks Jack. That is some great info. I didn't realize the delrin would also last longer. That alone could justify the cost over time if they last significantly longer.

What are your thoughts on delrin vs poly in your A arms concerning cost vs performance gain? Under what circumstances would you recommend or not recommend the delrin over the poly in your A arms?
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post #26 of 34 Old 05-08-2011, 09:56 PM
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Ricky,

In the MM FCAs:

I guess it depends on what you consider the price to be. If you look at the cost difference between polyurethane and Delrin in the FCAs alone, the difference is about 30%. However, if you look at the cost difference among the entire front suspension, k-member, coilovers, etc, the cost difference is very small. From that standpoint, if the car is used a lot on the track, I would definitely get the Delrin bushings. The overall cost difference is so small compared to the performance and durability difference.

I would use the polyurethane bushings when the customer wants to minimize NVH in the car. They will have a little less impact harshness and a moderate amount less noise when driving over reflectors in the road for instance. It is interesting to note that in this case, the brain equates noise with harshness and vice-versa. If there is a bang sound, the brain perceives this as harsh.

My main point is that I don't think I would ever make the bushing decision based upon price. I would always make it based upon application needs, so that makes it difficult for me to give recommendations based upon price. Nothing is a bargain if it is the wrong part for the job.

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post #27 of 34 Old 05-12-2011, 12:58 PM
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I have a NEW set of Poly's for the MM Arms, I'll sell for cheap!

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post #28 of 34 Old 12-23-2011, 08:54 PM
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so for a street driven stang. that will be time attacked, but will be mostly street driven. Which would be the better bushing to go with in the a-arm.
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post #29 of 34 Old 12-25-2011, 08:50 AM
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post #30 of 34 Old 12-25-2011, 12:02 PM
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how much more NVH are we talking about? Is it worth the increase in handling? Will it make the car unstreetable? Will see around 3-6 track day a year I'm guessing with most of the mileage on the street.
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post #31 of 34 Old 12-26-2011, 09:54 AM
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how much more NVH are we talking about? Is it worth the increase in handling? Will it make the car unstreetable? Will see around 3-6 track day a year I'm guessing with most of the mileage on the street.
3-6 days a year I wouldn't change out the stock bushings.

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post #32 of 34 Old 12-26-2011, 12:12 PM
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3-6 days a year I wouldn't change out the stock bushings.
Getting new a-arms and suspension. So changing them out either way.
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post #33 of 34 Old 12-26-2011, 02:05 PM
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Just get the Delrin.
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post #34 of 34 Old 12-26-2011, 04:39 PM
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If I was building a purely street car with added sound deadening material, quiet exhaust, and really soft springs/shocks.......I'd still go with the Delrin bushings.

JMHO
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