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post #1 of 12 Old 04-14-2011, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Driving question

I've been watching a lot of track day videos on youtube. A lot of mustangs, some others as well, and I was wondering about a thing that I see when two cars are running in tandem through a bunch of corners.
Sometimes the lead car will take a wide line through a corner and the trailing car will dive in and cut the turn inside the lead car and sometimes he will fall back a little and trail through the corner. Hopefully my description makes sense. Anyway I was wondering if this is a courtesy thing or maybe just a tactical decision based on if you feel like you can pull the corner that tight?

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post #2 of 12 Old 04-14-2011, 05:41 PM
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You're probably seeing various levels of experience on you tube videos. Beginner and intermediate drivers tend to fall in line through corners and pass on the straights whereas advanced drivers may pass in the corner if they can outbrake/outcorner the guy ahead of them. Even some of the advanced drivers won't initiate a pass going into a turn, but some do. It's just how aggressive they want to drive.

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post #3 of 12 Old 04-14-2011, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashjackson View Post
I've been watching a lot of track day videos on youtube. A lot of mustangs, some others as well, and I was wondering about a thing that I see when two cars are running in tandem through a bunch of corners.
Sometimes the lead car will take a wide line through a corner and the trailing car will dive in and cut the turn inside the lead car and sometimes he will fall back a little and trail through the corner. Hopefully my description makes sense. Anyway I was wondering if this is a courtesy thing or maybe just a tactical decision based on if you feel like you can pull the corner that tight?

Are you watching a race or HPDE? There really shouldn't be much if any passing in a corner during HPDE, as most sanctioned events want passes to be wave by's on the straights.

In typical road racing, the rule of thumb is that the passing car must be up to the door of the car that is being passed to take the preferred line through the corner. You may be seeing situations where the passing car doesn't feel like they have made it to the door and are backing off to yield the corner to the lead car.

As far as a car diving in, this is typically referred to as a "dive bomb" pass, and is definitely frowned upon. Dive bombs occur when the trailing car does not have position (not up to the door) of the lead car and drive into the corner on the preferred line, either resulting in the lead car having to drive off line to avoid the trailing car, or a collision.
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post #4 of 12 Old 04-15-2011, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, you guys. To be honest I was rolling from one video to the next, paying more attention to the car and track than anything else so probably was watching HPDE and races mixed together.
So, I have another question. assuming everything else is the same, mods, driver, hp torque, etc will a fox and an sn-95 drive the same line?

The reason I ask is because it *seems* like it is easier to find vids of foxes than sn-95's.

Last edited by dashjackson; 04-15-2011 at 11:16 AM.
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post #5 of 12 Old 04-15-2011, 12:29 PM
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As an offroad racer I make 90% of passes on the inside of a turn. You are counting on getting ahead of the other vehicle (or them letting up) enough to take their line and run wide on exit as a block. You typically can not exit the turn as fast coming from the inside so if you can't block them they will pull back away & it can appear that you let up.
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post #6 of 12 Old 04-15-2011, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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As an offroad racer I make 90% of passes on the inside of a turn. You are counting on getting ahead of the other vehicle (or them letting up) enough to take their line and run wide on exit as a block. You typically can not exit the turn as fast coming from the inside so if you can't block them they will pull back away & it can appear that you let up.
Please elaborate, is this cars? I have seen the type of overtake you are describing in dirtbike races quite a bit, but I assume this is always in a very competitive 10/10ths type of situation?
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post #7 of 12 Old 04-15-2011, 02:13 PM
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Get a copy of this book, about 1/3 of it is devoted to racecraft like this, the rest is car control technique. It's a fantastic book.

http://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-Mastering-Race-Driving/dp/0837602270

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post #8 of 12 Old 04-15-2011, 02:44 PM
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Please elaborate, is this cars? I have seen the type of overtake you are describing in dirtbike races quite a bit, but I assume this is always in a very competitive 10/10ths type of situation?
Well if it is a race then it is always "10/10ths" but I certainly would not do it in any type of casual event. I am new to roadracing in cars so I can't really comment on what is considered acceptable, but I have been told that I will need to tone down my aggressiveness.
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post #9 of 12 Old 04-15-2011, 10:02 PM
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assuming everything else is the same, mods, driver, hp torque, etc will a fox and an sn-95 drive the same line?

Each track (or track configuration) has a 'racing line' that is for the most part, independent of the type of car. This line is usually the fastest path around the the track and takes advantage of the characteristics of each turn such as track width, turn radius, banking, uphill/downhill etc. When starting out, most instructors will guide the student to follow the classic racing line. Passing in turns is not allowed in novice groups so the student can use the full width of the track on corner entry and exit.

Here's a description of Laguna Seca for example.

Again, for the most part the line is independent of the type of car but that's not 100% true. If the car understeers or oversteers, or it's a momentum car (like a Miata or Lotus) or a horsepower car (Viper, Vette) then the fastest way around a turn could be slightly different than the school book line.

Foxbody's and SN-95's are not that different so their line will be nearly if not exactly the same.
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post #10 of 12 Old 04-16-2011, 12:00 AM
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Each track (or track configuration) has a 'racing line' that is for the most part, independent of the type of car. This line is usually the fastest path around the the track and takes advantage of the characteristics of each turn such as track width, turn radius, banking, uphill/downhill etc. When starting out, most instructors will guide the student to follow the classic racing line. Passing in turns is not allowed in novice groups so the student can use the full width of the track on corner entry and exit.

Here's a description of Laguna Seca for example.

Again, for the most part the line is independent of the type of car but that's not 100% true. If the car understeers or oversteers, or it's a momentum car (like a Miata or Lotus) or a horsepower car (Viper, Vette) then the fastest way around a turn could be slightly different than the school book line.

Foxbody's and SN-95's are not that different so their line will be nearly if not exactly the same.

Agreed, most of the preferred line around the track is the same, no matter what kind of car you have. I wouldn't be going by videos online to find that preferred line either. You'll find that many of the guys out there don't know the line all that well and if you're following their lines whether following them on track or watching their videos, you may never learn the correct way.

I've yet to go to an event where there aren't instructors available. Even if you're an experienced track driver, it's always good to grab an instructor for a session at a track you haven't driven before and let them show you the line. That way you can start somewhere and then learn where your car works slightly differently than what they showed you. Sometimes you even get lucky enough to get a guy with a similar car.

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post #11 of 12 Old 04-17-2011, 03:09 PM
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I think you're seeing more foxes than SN95s as road race cars because they're dirt cheap, there are TONS of them in wrecking yards if you need parts, and they're a simple car.

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post #12 of 12 Old 04-26-2011, 03:42 PM
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With no other changes the SN-95 are more rigid, but they are also more heavy. The Fox's are like limp noodles until you add subframes and a roll bar (or other bracing). The sn's have 4 wheel disk brakes so that is a plus. Im bias towards the foxes, but in the stock mustang class in phx most the guys are running the SN-95.

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