How well can a Fox Body handle??????? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 01:24 AM Thread Starter
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How well can a Fox Body handle???????

I've got a 93 LX....original owner with 100k miles. Stock suspension.

I've only cared about straightline performance in this car, but recently I've wanted to get into road racing. Since I don't want to put a roll bar in my '03 Cobra vert, I'm left with the option of using the Fox or selling it for something else. The car has sentimental value, so I'd love to keep it and use it for road racing....BUT....I have several questions.


1. Assuming that I'm capable of doing extensive suspension mods, any re-conditioning required and with above average driving skills, can a properly set up Fox Body hang with the M3's, Evo's, Vettes and Vipers on a road course???

I'm sure those gutted, wide body and heavily cambered cars can do it, but can a street car ever be setup to hang with them? I'd be willing to go with a rollbar setup, rear seat delete, battery relocation, lightweight hood, splitter.....but I don't want the car in the weeds, don't want a huge wing and I want to keep it streetable and registered (I'll do exhaust mods anyway).

If so, what are some good examples of fox body's that can do this??? What's the mod list?


I'm not looking to win class championships or break records but I'd love to be able to mod up my Fox Body and, with some good driving skills, run with some of today's high performance cars.....and ofcourse....represent fox bodies.

If there's a thread that covers this in general, please do send. (I didn't see anything from a broad point of view)

Thanks!!!!!!!!!


Chris


Last edited by Stangposse; 03-11-2011 at 01:26 AM. Reason: .
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post #2 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 09:51 AM
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can a properly set up Fox Body hang with the M3's, Evo's, Vettes and Vipers on a road course???
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Stangposse View Post
I'm sure those gutted, wide body and heavily cambered cars can do it, but can a street car ever be setup to hang with them?
Probably not.

There's any number of YouTube videos that show fancier cars being out driven by someone in a fox, but compared to "M3's, Evo's, Vettes and Vipers," equal drivers, a mildy prepared street fox doesn't stand a chance.


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post #3 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 10:52 AM
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A streetable fox mustang won't do the job. My car is fully gutted, 2970lbs with driver, full cage, everything maximum motorsports with race valved shocks and really high spring rates, 320ish rwhp. I race against a race prepped Z06 corvette here in norcal. The driver is very capable, our cars are very close in lap times but he is just a bit quicker. Basically, whoever wins pole wins the race because neither of us can pass the other. Having said that, I can tell you that driving my car is a handful. I'm constantly making corrections, while looking at him in his videos it almost appears that he is on a Sunday drive.

Weight is key. That is the only advantage you can have over the cars mentioned. But, imo once you strip the car of all it's unnecessary weight it is no longer streetable.

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post #4 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 11:16 AM
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Also depends your opinion of streetable.

You could add your interior back for 50ish lbs.

If you do not mind having to dodge potholes on the street, get a comfy driver seat and have at it with a nice stereo to cancel out the nvh

That's what I did anyway
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post #5 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses!

I had a feeling that there'd be no streetable solution.

Coupe de Surf....if you had 450rwhp in your car, would you be able to take advantage of that or would that make your car even more difficult to handle in the turns and upset the balance of the car currently??
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post #6 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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Also depends your opinion of streetable.

You could add your interior back for 50ish lbs.

If you do not mind having to dodge potholes on the street, get a comfy driver seat and have at it with a nice stereo to cancel out the nvh

That's what I did anyway
I have a pretty high tolerance for nvh, but the pothole issue is a problem where I live. The roads suck!
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post #7 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 12:00 PM
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Thanks for the responses!

I had a feeling that there'd be no streetable solution.

Coupe de Surf....if you had 450rwhp in your car, would you be able to take advantage of that or would that make your car even more difficult to handle in the turns and upset the balance of the car currently??
If I had 450rwhp I could easily drive away from the cars in my class, but I would be at 6.6lbs per 1 hp, way under the limit of 8.7/1 for my class. Also how are you going to make 450rwhp? That's in the territory where you need a Dart block, that adds a lot more weight to the nose of the car which is exactly where you don't want it.

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post #8 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 02:27 PM
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M3's, Evo's, Vettes and Vipers
Yes, Yes, Yes (the Z06 passed me though). I was eating these guys up last time. I have the full griggs GR40 racing system and roll bar with a fordstroker 347. car is 3500 with me in it and made 380 at the tires with tiny headers. I didn't have any problems keeping up and passed most of the cars you mentioned in the straight aways. I have worked with a shop to tune the suspension for this weeks race. I am anticipating much better times. (im making 30 more hp, new NT01 tires, and my suspension is set up right this time)

There was a cammed Z06 that blew my door off, but i've added a few things to keep up this time )

Her name is white lightning. She's loaded with some Griggs stuff, and a plant woody built for me.
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post #9 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 02:34 PM
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Also how are you going to make 450rwhp?
Give woody a call (fordstrokers.com). He is a site sponser and has build many of these motors. I would think a 331/347 with a early block/mexican block, highports/TFFAC/AFR205, Victor JR intake, and a decent sized cam would get you there pretty easy.

My 347 (Canfield heads, Holly sytemax intake, 600ish lift TLSR) put down 380 with tiny headers and the rev limiter set at 6k. Long tubes and more RPM redline should get me to 420+ no problem.

Her name is white lightning. She's loaded with some Griggs stuff, and a plant woody built for me.
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post #10 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 03:18 PM
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I will be over 400whp too... but I have only half the engines you all are running

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post #11 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 04:20 PM
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Yes, Yes, Yes (the Z06 passed me though). I was eating these guys up last time. I have the full griggs GR40 racing system and roll bar with a fordstroker 347. car is 3500 with me in it and made 380 at the tires with tiny headers. I didn't have any problems keeping up and passed most of the cars you mentioned in the straight aways. I have worked with a shop to tune the suspension for this weeks race. I am anticipating much better times. (im making 30 more hp, new NT01 tires, and my suspension is set up right this time)

There was a cammed Z06 that blew my door off, but i've added a few things to keep up this time )
Were you in a sanctioned competitive race, or were you "racing" at a track day. There's a big difference.

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post #12 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 04:38 PM
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Great point. this was a fun race day with drivers having different skill levels. (im pretty new)

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I will be over 400whp too... but I have only half the engines you all are running
Very nice....do tell. What are you running? I have been very suprised with how well some of the 4 cyl have done keeping up with me on the straight aways. I had assumed they were turbo 4 cyl but I don't know for sure.

Her name is white lightning. She's loaded with some Griggs stuff, and a plant woody built for me.
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post #13 of 24 Old 03-11-2011, 11:25 PM
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99% they were 2.3T engines.

In stock form just by upping the boost and turning up the fuel pressure you can get around 250-300whp out of them all day long.

Mines a 'bit' more advanced then just turning up the boost, let's say that haha
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post #14 of 24 Old 03-15-2011, 12:41 PM
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99% they were 2.3T engines.

In stock form just by upping the boost and turning up the fuel pressure you can get around 250-300whp out of them all day long.

Mines a 'bit' more advanced then just turning up the boost, let's say that haha
boport big valve head?

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post #15 of 24 Old 03-15-2011, 02:45 PM
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Just piggy backing off this important topic, what would be the reccomended parts to make a street fox handle well for cornering while just ripping through the back roads for fun? Right now My car is etup to go straight which sucks because its a street driven car.

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post #16 of 24 Old 03-15-2011, 04:37 PM
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can a properly set up Fox Body hang with the M3's, Evo's, Vettes and Vipers on a road course???
IMHO, no.

Of course you can modify the car to the point where it's competitive with these cars in terms of lap times, but it's going to cost you a LOT of money and the end result will not be streetable.

The Fox's problems all lie at the very core of the car (power/weight ratio, front/rear weight distribution, lack of camber gain, poorly located roll centers, and chassis flex.) Fixing all of these is expensive, especially when you want to run with cars that were designed right in the first place. I'd estimate that you'd spend $8-10k on the suspension alone to get into this territory. And by tyhen your car would be closer in nature to a gutted, noisy, rough-riding race car than it would be to anything anyone would care to drive on the street for more than 5 minutes.

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If so, what are some good examples of fox body's that can do this??? What's the mod list?
It's much, much more than simply a collection of parts to be installed. Getting the most out of those parts is critical and that takes both experiance and track time -- LOTS of track time.

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but I'd love to be able to mod up my Fox Body and, with some good driving skills, run with some of today's high performance cars.....and ofcourse....represent fox bodies.
Good luck!

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post #17 of 24 Old 03-15-2011, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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Give woody a call (fordstrokers.com). He is a site sponser and has build many of these motors. I would think a 331/347 with a early block/mexican block, highports/TFFAC/AFR205, Victor JR intake, and a decent sized cam would get you there pretty easy.

My 347 (Canfield heads, Holly sytemax intake, 600ish lift TLSR) put down 380 with tiny headers and the rev limiter set at 6k. Long tubes and more RPM redline should get me to 420+ no problem.
Are power adders not recommended for road racing? I would think that with that displacement, a centri or turbo would get you there with ease, rules notwithstanding. My guess is that the longevity of the motor is in jeopardy.

I'm sorry if I sound naive, but I'm clueless in this area.
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post #18 of 24 Old 03-15-2011, 06:06 PM
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Are power adders not recommended for road racing?
It can be done, but heat becomes a big enemy. You're going to want an intercooled setup and you have to be very carefully about your cooing setup (radiator, water pump, airflow, etc...)

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My guess is that the longevity of the motor is in jeopardy.
that runs a close second.

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post #19 of 24 Old 03-16-2011, 01:06 AM
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While I still plan on driving my CP Fox uncompetitively in my region, I picked up an e36 project car from someone in my car club. It is a '93 318iS with a blow'd real good engine and a 5.0 engine/T5 powertrain. I plan on starting this swap when the weather is a bit nicer. I took advantage of the TFS TW 170 sale Summit racing had back a few months ago and have also picked up some related bits and pieces to help this project along. Once the butchery is completed, I expect the Bimmer to be a nice step up from my usual ####-heaps.

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post #20 of 24 Old 03-16-2011, 10:40 AM
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It is a '93 318iS with a blow'd real good engine and a 5.0 engine/T5 powertrain. I plan on starting this swap when the weather is a bit nicer.
Have you spoken with Terry Fair over at Vorschlag? Terry has developed a lot of swap kits for putting American engines into BMWs.

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post #21 of 24 Old 03-16-2011, 11:12 AM
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Robert, I know of Terry and Vorschlag but have not. Vorschlag is more geared towards the LSx/T56 swaps ($$$). I'm planning on using the e36v8 guy's engine/transmission mounts/hydraulic clutch etc as well as generally follow the instructions on the kit CD (without some of the ghettoness). I got the mounts and clutch as part of the project just forgot to mention it in my previous post.

Depending on how this goes, I may consider another swap the Vorschlag Way(tm).

Even so, an e36 with a ~300hp 5.0 should be pretty snappy, stiffer, better balanced and so on.

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post #22 of 24 Old 03-16-2011, 11:17 AM
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Robert, I know of Terry and Vorschlag but have not. Vorschlag is more geared towards the LSx/T56 swaps ($$$).
I'm 99% sure Terry has looked at a 5.0L/T-5 swap (though I dunno if it was for an e36 or not.) I'd at least call him and see what he thought. I know he chose the LS engines at least in part for their fitment in the BMW's engine bat. It may be that the SBF doesn't fit as well for some reason.

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post #23 of 24 Old 03-16-2011, 12:55 PM
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My guess is that Fair choose the LS1s for their power and weight vs. any fitment issues, but I could be wrong. Fair's an old foxbody guru, btw, so he really knows 5.0 and T-5s (he was my auto-x mentor at Texas A&M). Rolf, are you on corner carvers? Fair has lots of great BMW tech there spread throughout his various build threads. You could probably create a build thread over there and get his input without the hassle of having to call him.
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post #24 of 24 Old 03-16-2011, 01:54 PM
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Casey, I have an account on c-c (one of the reasons I was swayed to march lockstep ). Once I get started on the build, I'll see how brave I am about starting a build thread there or at the bimmerforums (I know Terry is a regular in the Engine Conversions subforum).

This is the website I was referring to:

E36V8.com: BMW V8 swaps and 5.0 engine conversions

There are some issues to overcome such as the waterpump to radiator clearance but the swap has been done successfully by others so I won't be breaking any new ground.

Yep, power to weight is definitely the LSx swaps' strong point but there are some pricey bits (custom headers, 3 joint steering shaft, engine/trans itself) to make the conversion happen.

My goals are a bit more modest but the end result ought to be a better engineered BMWang.

Last edited by Moving Target; 03-24-2011 at 09:48 PM.
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