Bilstein Sports Vs. MM Race Valved - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 02-01-2011, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Bilstein Sports Vs. MM Race Valved

I am just about to the point where I am going to do the entire suspension on my 91 Fox with a Maximum Motorsport setup. Where I need the most help is coilover spring rates and damper selection.

A little about the car first, I use it as an open track car about 70% of the time; a street car 25% of the time and autocross about 5%. It has a 465RWHP stroked 351W. The block is a heavy cast iron 1969 Windsor block. Full interior besides a 6 point cage and other bracing, with a removed rear seat assembly. 275-40-17 tires and I would like to maybe go bigger in the future.
The parts I have picked out for the front is the K-Member package part# MMKMP-9 but I want the Derlin bushing instead of the Urethane bushings for the control arms.

For the rear I am also going to get the HD T/A Panhard bar package with the extreme duty lower arms. I guess I will also have to get the rear coil over conversion kit (Part# COP-3).

I believe this is everything except for the correct dampers to accompany the spring rates that are correct for my combination. I am thinking 400 lb/in Front with 300 lb/in in the rear. For this spring combo there are 2 dampers that will work. The MM Sport dampers (part#MAX-1) or the MM Race series dampers (part#MAX-2).

*So what say you? Sport dampers or the Race series? Is there a BIG difference between the two on the street?
*Does the spring combo look good? Do the springs come in 8" or 10"? Will the 10" springs provide enough clearance between it and a 275-40-17 tire? Will it leave me room to possibly go with a bigger tire some day?

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91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq

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post #2 of 29 Old 02-01-2011, 07:20 PM
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Im gonna try 400 in front and 300 in rear as well, on the sports tho...(seeing i drive on street)

i as well an Doing all MM stuff


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post #3 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 05:20 AM
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My car has 400# F, 300# R springs with MM Bilstein Sports. The car also has Delrin bushings with forward offset control arms, 96 spindles and 275/40/17s on 03 Cobras all around. You will need to do some flaring, rolling, cussing with the front fenders, but it'll work. Or you can be like me, purchase some Tiger Racing fiber glass fenders......and then store them in your parent's garage!

The front tires are close, but don't rub the front springs.

I purchased the Sports (and springs) at MM's recommendation. I probably should have just bought the Bilsteins and driven them with the springs at the time (350F, 250R), but I didn't! The 400/300 springs are actually quite streetable. I now DD the Mustang since my previous DD was rear ended and totalled.

I'm not trying to start another Koni/Bilstein war, but have you considered Konis? I went with Bilsteins because I already had the Bilstein coilover kit. If I had the money, I would have bought Konis, Koni coilover kit and the new springs. If you decide that Bilsteins are for you (I truly do like them, just wanted to try Konis if the money was there), I would say springs for the MM Race2. That way you still have room to go to stiffer springs.

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post #4 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 07:32 AM
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Considering that MM actually makes spring rate recommendations with their dampers, how about you just follow those?
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post #5 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 07:38 AM
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That's what I did. Couple that with an adjustable rear bar(of which size they also recommended), its been great.
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post #6 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanger_Matt View Post
My car has 400# F, 300# R springs with MM Bilstein Sports. The car also has Delrin bushings with forward offset control arms, 96 spindles and 275/40/17s on 03 Cobras all around. You will need to do some flaring, rolling, cussing with the front fenders, but it'll work. Or you can be like me, purchase some Tiger Racing fiber glass fenders......and then store them in your parent's garage!

The front tires are close, but don't rub the front springs.

I purchased the Sports (and springs) at MM's recommendation. I probably should have just bought the Bilsteins and driven them with the springs at the time (350F, 250R), but I didn't! The 400/300 springs are actually quite streetable. I now DD the Mustang since my previous DD was rear ended and totalled.

I'm not trying to start another Koni/Bilstein war, but have you considered Konis? I went with Bilsteins because I already had the Bilstein coilover kit. If I had the money, I would have bought Konis, Koni coilover kit and the new springs. If you decide that Bilsteins are for you (I truly do like them, just wanted to try Konis if the money was there), I would say springs for the MM Race2. That way you still have room to go to stiffer springs.
I'm surprised you said it's streetable. Every person that's been in my car says it's too unstreetable. You can barely listen to the radio because of how stiff my setup is (Full MM suspension, 400/300 with Bilstein Sports). There are certain roads I can't bring my car on because they're too rough. I also can't go over some speedbumps because of how violently the front end lifts up, even at a snail's pace. In fact, I'm usually going so slow that I drift backwards trying to get over speedbumps just to avoid any unpleasantness, but there's always a fairly strong jolt.

Don't get me wrong, I love my setup. It works great on the track, but calling it streetable is very much in the eye of the beholder.

1997 Rio Red Mustang Cobra
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post #7 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 11:41 AM
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Maybe drop your tire pressue down from 60psi to maybe 30?(...joking on the 60psi thing).

I'll probably attract the safety nazi's here and the smarter than me/pointy finger guys, but I run my tires at 20-22psi Nitto NT05's 275/40 and 315/35 17's.
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post #8 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 12:00 PM
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this is my plan/setup

as is: MM TA/MM PHB/MM XD LCA/MM steering shaft/MM bumpsteer kit/MM CC plates/ stock swaybars, going to swap to shorter front swaybar endlinks,
i have the MM STB but i dont know if im going to use it...ive heard lots of things reguarding STB's
and im running nitto NT05 255/275

my plan is to run the bilstein sports with MM coilovers F/R 400F 300R

why does MM call the bilstein HD (bilsteins) but the sports/race valves they call them MM sports and Race valve MM?



now going on to koni...i actually heard from MM that the bilsteins are your best bet, one reason is because MM tests with the bilsteins, then the other reasons are that they are monotube etc etc etc dissipate heat better and all the other stuff bilstein claims

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post #9 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
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now going on to koni...i actually heard from MM that the bilsteins are your best bet, one reason is because MM tests with the bilsteins, then the other reasons are that they are monotube etc etc etc dissipate heat better and all the other stuff bilstein claims
The non-adjustables are one less obstacle they hafta trouble-shoot on the phone when the customer calls and complains/asks questions.

If you wanna run Koni's....call Sam Strano.
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post #10 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 01:09 PM
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The struts/shocks are called Bilstein HD because everything in them is a Bilstein design, the Sport and Race are (I believe) designed in conjunction with MM to suit their setup.

I have the same setup that the OP is talking about minus the TA for the moment (it's in the basement, going on this spring). Because of that, my rear coilover spring rate is 250lb for the moment. The car rides better than it did when I bought it (it had BBK lowering springs and Tokiko blue struts/shocks on stock k-member and control arms). My FLCAs are the standard offset with delrin bushings and 10" springs. I have no spring contact with my 275/40/17s on '95 Cobra R wheels and 2.5 deg of negative camber.

It's streetable in this form and when I called MM for advice they said no matter how little it's run on the street, I should not put the race valved shocks/struts on it if it would see any street use. They also said to stay at 400lb max in front and 300lb max in the rear with the TA.

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post #11 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscortSportage View Post

why does MM call the bilstein HD (bilsteins) but the sports/race valves they call them MM sports and Race valve MM?



now going on to koni...i actually heard from MM that the bilsteins are your best bet, one reason is because MM tests with the bilsteins, then the other reasons are that they are monotube etc etc etc dissipate heat better and all the other stuff bilstein claims
MM modifies the mounting ears/tabs for increased strength. Many users were bending the tabs.

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post #12 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 05:49 PM
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I'm surprised you said it's streetable. Every person that's been in my car says it's too unstreetable. You can barely listen to the radio because of how stiff my setup is (Full MM suspension, 400/300 with Bilstein Sports). There are certain roads I can't bring my car on because they're too rough. I also can't go over some speedbumps because of how violently the front end lifts up, even at a snail's pace. In fact, I'm usually going so slow that I drift backwards trying to get over speedbumps just to avoid any unpleasantness, but there's always a fairly strong jolt.

Don't get me wrong, I love my setup. It works great on the track, but calling it streetable is very much in the eye of the beholder.
Maybe my tolerance is a little higher since the 'stang is all I have to drive at the moment. Lol. I drive like a sissy over speed bumps, in shopping centers & in the city....I get dirty looks from people, even if crawling along in nuetral! Stupid lumpy cam!


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post #13 of 29 Old 02-02-2011, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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Considering that MM actually makes spring rate recommendations with their dampers, how about you just follow those?
Wow! What a brilliant idea...O wait, the sports are rated 350 in/lb- 400. The race series are 400-425. Gosh, either will work.

However, I think I am going to go with the sports. It seems that even if your only doing a little street driving the Race valved combo is just to much.

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
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post #14 of 29 Old 02-03-2011, 02:07 PM
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im going MM sports 400f 300r with stock swaybars
10 point cage and lets go racing!


so just for haha's i went on MM yesterday to price out ALL the suspension stuff i want

$2,700.00 Dollars


drops head.....

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post #15 of 29 Old 02-03-2011, 02:49 PM
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im going MM sports 400f 300r with stock swaybars
10 point cage and lets go racing!


so just for haha's i went on MM yesterday to price out ALL the suspension stuff i want

$2,700.00 Dollars


drops head.....
That's it!?!? lol

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post #16 of 29 Old 02-03-2011, 11:09 PM
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I think the new ones have the crimped cap and are harder to revalve, if the valving you get from the vendor isn't to your liking...and you don't have any knobs to turn to try and tune around it. For the crimped style, some rebuilders don't deal with them, some deal with them as-is, and some add Schraeder valves to re-gas them. So, if you buy MM spec'ed valving and make a big spring change down the road...

Of course, Koni screws you on the rebuilds by not selling the parts to the general public, so no love there...

I guess Penskes are the answer
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post #17 of 29 Old 02-04-2011, 03:02 AM
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The Bilstein HD struts and shocks are 100% built by Bilstein and are straight out of their catalog.

The MM race and Sport valved struts and shocks are MM products. No one else, including Bilstein can sell them. For the front struts MM manufacturers the entire strut housing. We purchase a custom valved hydraulic insert from Bilstein and assemble them ourselves. The rear shocks are custom manufactured by Bilstein for MM.

Discussing spring rates versus ride quality, without taking into account the total vehicle weight, ride height, tire sidewall height and tire pressure is pointless. All of the other variables will have a much larger combined effect on ride quality than spring rate alone.
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post #18 of 29 Old 02-04-2011, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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So jack, how much worse a ride would it be on the street comparing the sport shocks to the race valved all things being equal? If the girlfriend can stand driving to a track 3 hours away on the sports, will there be that big a difference going to the race valved setup?

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
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post #19 of 29 Old 02-04-2011, 10:59 AM
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That's it!?!? lol

ok send me some cash...

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post #20 of 29 Old 02-04-2011, 05:07 PM
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Any comparison I make assumes that the different struts and shocks have the matching spring rates installed with them.

On smooth roads the stiffer package will ride fairly well. The main time that it will be uncomfortable is when the road surface becomes rough. This will make a lot more noise and vibration. The other time it will be more uncomfortable is when you drive over any transitions which are sharp. Expansion joints between freeway sections that aren't at the same height, potholes, etc. There will be a lot more vertical suspension motion and more audible impact noise. I would say that the difference in NVH between the MM2 and Sport packages is about 25%.

My car is a Fox with MM2s and 425lbs/in/325lbs/in springs. My wife has driven hundreds of miles in the car. Most track events are 3-4 hours from me. She has no problem with that. She wouldn't want the car for her daily driver however. Two previous girlfriends failed the car freeway onramp test before I found a keeper, so maybe my wife is just very accommodating

With the power your car has and the tire size, I'm concerned that a Sport valved setup will allow so much vehicle motion on track that you won't be happy with the results. This is primarily based on your 75% track/25% street usage. If your usage was 80% street/20% track, I would recommend the Sports.

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post #21 of 29 Old 02-04-2011, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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thanks Jack. Thats the answer I was looking for. Im going for the MM2's

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq
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post #22 of 29 Old 02-08-2011, 12:42 PM
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Jack,

Could you describe the "car freeway on ramp test" a bit?

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post #23 of 29 Old 02-08-2011, 01:39 PM
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Simple. On your second date, take a 270 degree freeway offramp at 0.8-0.9g. If she sticks her fingernails into your arm hard enough to draw blood or screams excessively, that is a fail.
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post #24 of 29 Old 02-08-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
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Simple. On your second date, take a 270 degree freeway offramp at 0.8-0.9g. If she sticks her fingernails into your arm hard enough to draw blood or screams excessively, that is a fail.
Note that this is a failure of the girlfriend, not the hardware.
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post #25 of 29 Old 02-08-2011, 04:36 PM
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Simple. On your second date, take a 270 degree freeway offramp at 0.8-0.9g. If she sticks her fingernails into your arm hard enough to draw blood or screams excessively, that is a fail.
That is awesome in too many ways to count. Out of curiousity, what tires do you use on the street Jack?
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post #26 of 29 Old 02-08-2011, 05:50 PM
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Simple. On your second date, take a 270 degree freeway offramp at 0.8-0.9g. If she sticks her fingernails into your arm hard enough to draw blood or screams excessively, that is a fail.
Well, my wife failed the offramp test, however, for our first Christmas together (dating, not married) she bought me a full in-car camera setup with a mount, bullet camera, remote mic, audio/video hub and a pretty nice video camera (the two options were tape and dv, she did enough research to know the dv one would skip in the car and bought the tape one instead). She also did enough research to know the camera had to have video/audio inputs (which alot of them at the time didn't have).

I figured she more than made up for failing the offramp test, though more than 5 years later, she still doesn't like it when I power slide my truck in the snow, oh well.
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-09-2011, 09:58 AM
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Mine's not particularly fond of me getting her Sentra to E-brake drift, but she loves ridin' in the Mustang.
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post #28 of 29 Old 12-06-2011, 12:27 PM
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i love my 400f 300r co, car rides great, im almost done with the MM catelog

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post #29 of 29 Old 12-08-2011, 06:59 PM
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350/250 here on the street with the konis... no problemo! She even takes dirt / gravel roads like a champ.
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