Motor Choice for Open Track.... - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 23 Old 11-22-2010, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SVTOA's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 288
Lightbulb Motor Choice for Open Track....

I used to be an avid open tracker back East. Since I moved out to Cali 7 years ago, I've been out of the scene. I am now looking to get back into the action but want a Dead Reliable, High HP/TQ N/A motor that will handle the routine abuse it will be receiving. I want something with much better power than the 4.6 DOHC. All options considered and a budget of about 7k.

We all know about the glass jaw of the 4.6 DOHC. I blew up two different motors, one at Limerock and one at Summitt Point. Both oil/starvation pump gear failures due to pot metal design and harmonics.

My platform is a 96 Mystic w/full cage, Griggs front MM/rear and Brembo BB setup.

What would you pick and why? Thanks for the replies in advance!




Dave
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2007 Saleen S281sc
"I love the smell of burn't rubber in the morning!"
SVTOA is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 23 Old 11-23-2010, 12:29 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,430
Coyote


1993 GT 310rwhp / 351rwtq
AFR FTI EDEL Combo. MM, T-56 3.73, Brembo, 275s on 03 Cobras all around
Stanger_Matt is offline  
post #3 of 23 Old 11-23-2010, 02:25 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SVTOA's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 288
Coyote Racing?

Dave
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2007 Saleen S281sc
"I love the smell of burn't rubber in the morning!"
SVTOA is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 23 Old 11-23-2010, 07:44 AM
Registered User
 
huesmann's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (6)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: DC burbs, MD side
Posts: 6,894
No, he means the new 5-liter.
huesmann is offline  
post #5 of 23 Old 11-23-2010, 12:35 PM
Registered User
 
Shin's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grand Cayman
Posts: 41
The Coyote is 400hp and weighs 430, which is 10 heavier than a SOHC WITH an aluminum block and around 20lbs heavier than an LS3.

Yellow 1998 Mustang GT
MM Panhard Bar, Steeda Sport Springs, Steed FLSFC, Koni SA (F/R) , 96 Cobra Brakes (F/R), 96 Cobra Rear Sway.

Teksid Block swap in the works
Shin is offline  
post #6 of 23 Old 11-23-2010, 06:52 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (34)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in the hills
Posts: 502
You did not say if you have to make it pass emissions.If so then you will be looking and planning alittle harder.Stan
Ruslow is offline  
post #7 of 23 Old 11-23-2010, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
SVTOA's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruslow View Post
You did not say if you have to make it pass emissions.If so then you will be looking and planning alittle harder.Stan
Emissions not an issue, ready to make it a dedicated track only car.

Dave
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2007 Saleen S281sc
"I love the smell of burn't rubber in the morning!"
SVTOA is offline  
post #8 of 23 Old 11-28-2010, 11:26 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: greenville, s.c.
Posts: 50
Man , i am in same boat.
Looking heavily at the new 5.0
I will be running in nasa's american iron
I have a '98 svt, full cage, full MM maximum grip box, stock motor except for LTHs, msking about 290/290 to the wheels

I could possibly get off cheaper with heads (b-to-c swap), P&P, cams and tune, . . .
My short block was supposedly rebuilt 10,000 miles ago, but I still ain't sure.
If that got me to about 345/345, I'd be SET.
But i am scared of investing $3-4k, and either having it come up short, or grenading shortly thereafter.

I heard something about them turning the new coyote 90 degrees on it's side on the dyno, and running it, to simulate the oil starvation of a long 1-G sweeper, and it held up flawlessly.

Plus it is brand new and should come with a warranty for a year

New motors are going for ~$6,149, and ~$1,549 for the harness, ecu, etc.

May still need a different alternator, etc, . . . And who knows what else

Looking and debating, . . .
Doc

Last edited by docstang; 11-28-2010 at 11:28 PM.
docstang is offline  
post #9 of 23 Old 11-29-2010, 11:38 AM
Registered User
 
mlanoux's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (9)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by docstang View Post
I heard something about them turning the new coyote 90 degrees on it's side on the dyno, and running it, to simulate the oil starvation of a long 1-G sweeper, and it held up flawlessly.
I'd have to see that to believe it.
mlanoux is offline  
post #10 of 23 Old 11-29-2010, 02:06 PM
Registered User
 
hotmustang95's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Posts: 309
Since you've had so much bad luck with the 4.6, how about the old tried and true 5.0? Maybe a nice 331?

hotmustang95 is offline  
post #11 of 23 Old 11-30-2010, 05:48 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: greenville, s.c.
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlanoux View Post
I'd have to see that to believe it.

from :
this link
look at 2nd-to-last, and 3rd-to-last paragraphs :


Down in the depths of the engine, designers labored to optimize oil control to ensure lubrication under severe conditions while minimizing losses due to oil drag. In order to visually inspect how oil drainback would occur under high lateral acceleration, engineers installed clear camshaft covers on a prototype engine, which was rotated 90 degrees onto its side then run on the dyno.

With this set up, engineers observed the actual oil drain paths that would likely occur under racing or extreme track-day conditions.
docstang is offline  
post #12 of 23 Old 11-30-2010, 08:39 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 1,022
I dont have any experience with the 4.6 stuff, but you can build a 400hp 347 that only needs 6500 rpm and makes power all the way down at 2500 rpm.

I have a pretty well built solid roller 347 that runs on pump gas and makes 411rwhp 395rwtq (on a VERY safe tune). I wouldnt be worried about flogging it all day at the road course, which is why I went N/A.

i know some diehards will disagree with it, but the LSX series are really hard to beat in regards to power for $$, and you would prob be able to make 450hp for way under $7k total.

N/A 347 Pump gas - 411rwhp/395rwtq
jtkz13 is offline  
post #13 of 23 Old 11-30-2010, 09:13 AM
Registered User
 
mlanoux's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (9)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by docstang View Post
from :
this link
look at 2nd-to-last, and 3rd-to-last paragraphs :


Down in the depths of the engine, designers labored to optimize oil control to ensure lubrication under severe conditions while minimizing losses due to oil drag. In order to visually inspect how oil drainback would occur under high lateral acceleration, engineers installed clear camshaft covers on a prototype engine, which was rotated 90 degrees onto its side then run on the dyno.

With this set up, engineers observed the actual oil drain paths that would likely occur under racing or extreme track-day conditions.
I wonder how they kept enough oil under the pickup to not kill the engine....
mlanoux is offline  
post #14 of 23 Old 11-30-2010, 10:39 AM
Registered User
 
Han Solo's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Miccosukee, FL
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlanoux View Post
I wonder how they kept enough oil under the pickup to not kill the engine....
They had to be running the prototype with a dry sump to turn it 90 degrees.

99 Mustang GT - Auto-x/track car, 96 Townsend Chassis Late Model Stockcar (sold), 03 F150 - Daily Driver
http://www.youtube.com/user/sandyman099/videos
Han Solo is offline  
post #15 of 23 Old 11-30-2010, 11:57 AM
Registered User
 
mlanoux's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (9)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
They had to be running the prototype with a dry sump to turn it 90 degrees.
Isn't that cheating.....it's not like the stangs are going to be sporting the dry sump
mlanoux is offline  
post #16 of 23 Old 11-30-2010, 03:17 PM
Registered User
 
Han Solo's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Miccosukee, FL
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlanoux View Post
Isn't that cheating.....it's not like the stangs are going to be sporting the dry sump
It ain't like they are going to be running at 90* either. Not sure what they were trying to learn with that exercise. I don't see any real world information being gained from running an engine at that extreme angle.

Would be nice to know if they designed it to prevent oil starvation at a realistic high lateral G though. Something the newer LS engines are bad for. The basic rule of thumb being quoted on the LS3 is if you are going to run DOT R compounds or stickier you need a dry sump system or you're gonna blow.

99 Mustang GT - Auto-x/track car, 96 Townsend Chassis Late Model Stockcar (sold), 03 F150 - Daily Driver
http://www.youtube.com/user/sandyman099/videos
Han Solo is offline  
post #17 of 23 Old 12-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: At the apex, blocking your pass.
Posts: 2,133
I'd run the crate 5.0. Simply a stunning engine.

-- Robert King
NASA AI #42, Texas
Instructor, NASA Texas Region
Instructor, TWS Perf. Driving School
gt40mkII is offline  
post #18 of 23 Old 12-01-2010, 01:50 PM
Registered User
 
1svtfan's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (14)
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 188
For the money it's hard to beat a 351w. Parts are available, and you can easily remain smog legal in CA if you need to run it on the street.

As someone stated earlier, a 331 is always a good choice as well. I bought a 95 Cobra to dedicate to open track because of my concern around blowing up my 04 Cobra. I have a 306 in it now, but am planning the replacement for it to keep up with some buddies dropping an LS1 in an RX-7.

All things being considered a 331 is way easier, but the added cubes of the 351 would be nice.

Just my $.02

Great pic by the way. That could be a mirror image of mine minus the hood.
1svtfan is offline  
post #19 of 23 Old 12-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (6)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 58
No dry sump? Try an Accusump. Works for any engine. I installed one on my 521 big block after noting the oil pressure dropping to zero during an autocross! No more oil pressure problems, even at Daytona's 24 hour course or at Sebring.

BTW the so-called road race pans for the 460-based engine don't work for road racing or anything else. I tried the trap doors, the baffles, the pickup-to-pan distances, the extra quart, one quart low... Nothing helped. Finally, the Accusump.

I've watched 4.6s and small blocks starve and self-destruct at Sebring, unless they were equipped with a dry- or Accu-sump.

No, I have no financial interest there - just passing along one way to preserve one's engine.

Having said that, the Coyote does look like a nifty piece.

Tom
TomW is offline  
post #20 of 23 Old 12-01-2010, 07:10 PM
Registered User
 
93FIVEOH's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (13)
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South Bend, Indiana
Posts: 5,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt40mkII View Post
I'd run the crate 5.0. Simply a stunning engine.
This guy may be close to the op: https://forums.corral.net/forums/show....php?t=1265980

Tuning in to hear the other suggestions.

Kevin
93FIVEOH is offline  
post #21 of 23 Old 12-02-2010, 06:09 PM
Registered User
 
Curt C's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: las vegas, nv
Posts: 766
The easiest way to get reliable TQ and HP in NA form is to go for cubic inches. High RPM kills engines quicker than big HP and TQ levels. I run a 408 that makes 440 HP and 440 TQ and 5700 and 4700 RPM respectively. It runs all day long and I never need to shift above 6000 RPM. You can easily get another 100 - 200 HP with a bigger cam but will have to spin it over 6,000. The downside is weight (compared to a 4.6, 302 or LS engine). This can be offset somewhat by lightening other pieces as you know.

1986-045 Saleen Mustang Griggs GR40, 408W RDI aluminum block, AFR 205, T56
1999 Porsche 911 Carerra - Stock
1999 BMW M Coupe - Stock
Curt C is offline  
post #22 of 23 Old 12-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Registered User
 
straightliner1's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: California. Where'd they put the Taco Trucks?
Posts: 4,772
Slice me off a little piece of this heaven:

Aluminum-block 427, 500~ HP


http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=12378

Justin
FYI: Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left!
SOLD - 91LX Couper track bitch
straightliner1 is offline  
post #23 of 23 Old 12-06-2010, 06:02 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (12)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Va
Posts: 284
One like this one would work just fine for me....

edhunter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale Track Heat intake set up. Tstein347 Windsor Engine Parts 1 11-13-2010 02:08 AM
Need quiet Mufflers for 450hp car. Open headers at the track a good idea? *LONG* jz_mustang50 General Mustang Tech 22 01-03-2002 08:12 PM
Track results with my new 28" MT's... NO MANRZ1 5.0/5.8 Engine Tech 2 12-16-2001 09:53 PM
Track Heat Components and Emmissions.... Racnoth 5.0/5.8 Engine Tech 4 12-02-2001 08:10 PM
Race Track in Highland, Ulster County, New York SPRTSMN Northeast 0 11-25-2001 05:37 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome