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post #1 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Oil Temps....RRrrrr

I've got a 383 stroker windsor that makes 465 RWHP and I usually spin it to around 6500 R's. I'm having a serious problem keeping oil temps in check. Now I know the whole 3" mains make oil temps high but trying to track a 351W while keeping oil temps in check has been done countless times and is not rocket science.

I have yet to actually have the car on track with this new engine combo for fear of only being able to run a few laps before oil temps get out of control.

If I just take it on the back roads and romp on it for about a minute oil temps will shoot up in the 240-250 range. With that comes a loss of 5-8 PSI of much needed oil pressure. The longer I stay on it, the higher oil temps will get. I have always stopped at around 250-260 and that only takes maybe two or three minutes of hard driving. It notablly takes a good 15-20 minutes of very calm driving at 50 or so MPH (in 5th gear at a low 1500 RPM) to get oil temps back down in the 200-220 range.

Here is what I have so far. Earls sandwhich adapter with built in thermostat that starts to open around 180. From there I run -12AN lines to one of those big nascar oil coolers that sit under their radiator. I believe the maker is C&L, I actually bought it off e-bay. It's fairly large at 22" long, 4 1/2" tall and 4" thick. (pic at bottom is similar to the one I have). I cut out the bumber and made it fit up inside of it then cut out the front section of the bumber so I would think it's geting plenty of air. (I dont have any pics of it but I have a pic below and I shaded in white the area where the cooler is sitting). I also run a road race Canton 7qt pan along with a 3qt Accusump. I have also cur out a section of the hood to help release hot air.

Now I would think this would cool me down but it's not! DO you think there might be a problem with something like perhaps the sandwhich adapter isn't flowing enough oil? Maybe it's not really geting that much air there? Cooler not good enough? I'm stumped.....


Shaded area is cut out with oil cooler mounted directly behind it.



Mine is a setup a bit different from this one but they are similar. Mine measures 22" long, 4 1/2" tall and 4" thick



91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq

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post #2 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 12:14 PM
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What's water temp?

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post #3 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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Water temps are rock solid at 180-190 with a 2 row FRPP radiator & contour electric fan setup.

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 12:40 PM
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How about oil pressure, what's it before it drops the 5-8 psi?

Sounds odd that coolant temp is so low and oil temp spikes up so high so fast. Have you measured the oil temp with more than just your gauge? Many multimeters have a temp probe or one can be purchased for the meter (if you have one). We used one to check my father's CTS-V's oil temp when he was on track (the first 04's were calibrated to sound warnings too early and it was always happening on the track), we had the temp probe that is a simple wire and fed it down the dipstick hole into the pan with the engine off.

After you've tromped on it and oil temp is high, does it come back down when you let out? Does it take a long time to come back down or does it come back down quickly (if it comes back down)?

The loss of oil pressure would be odd if it's just a gauge problem but sometimes we have a tendancy to overthink stuff.
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post #5 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 01:47 PM
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What jumps out at me is the amount of time it's taking to cool down. My oil temps cool down about 10 degrees on a two minute cool down lap at 60-70 mph. If your water temp is ok that suggests that airflow is not a problem, which leaves oil flow or the heat exchanger is too small. I would contact batinc.com and speak to the tech department. The british gentleman there is very knowledgeable about oil cooling systems on a wide variety of engines, including american V8s. I have no idea what the oiling requirements are for 351 based motor but you do have quite a bit of extra plumbing, I assume the pump was properly spec'd for your setup?

250-260 is not that high. I ran with no cooler for 2 seasons, when I put a temp gauge on I found my oil temps would routinely hit 300 degrees! I use a high quality synthetic oil and the motor is still going strong after 4 seasons of severe abuse. With the cooler I run about 240-260 depending on ambient temp. I also have a good friend with a C5 Z06 with no cooler, he routinely sees 300 degrees, he's been running for 3 seasons, breaking norcal TTA track records, with nary an engine problem. Is this advisable for long periods of time? No, but don't let 250-260 scare you away from the track.

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post #6 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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MJ- Oil pressures are around 50-55 @ 6000 R's when at 180-200 degrees oil temps. When the oil creeps into the 250-260 range I'm down to about 42-45PSI @ 6k.
I know this is low but for whatever reason it has always been that way. After about 3,000 miles of driving I pulled the motor to check things out. All looked very good. I do run a little loose tolerances on the mains at .003-.0032 and .0022 on the rods. Paul feassler at Paul's Automotive Engineering told me this is about normal pressures on a SBF and about what he gets out of his road race mustang.
I haven't checked temps with another gage but really have no reason to believe that the autometer mechanical gage is off. I mount the temp probe in the back of the pan where canton has made a provision for it to go.

Surf- I run a melling 10833 High Volume Pump. It has an adjustable screw for pressure and I have it turned all the way for full pressure. Interestingly enough, I only lost about 1-2 PSI after I installed the oil cooler. I'm running Redline 50w-20 race oil.
250-260 degree oil temps don't really scare me, it's the fact that I know if I keep romping on it they seem to continue to rise. I hate to see what they are after a 20 minute session.
I'm not a math guru but I imagine the surface area of my cooler is on the very large side of what most people are running. I'm pretty sure its geting plenty of air. That leaves oil flow volume, which I would think would have something to do with the Earl's sandwhich adapter.

Has anyone ever had a sandwhich adapter go bad? I'm not sure how the thermostat works in the adapter but perhaps it is stuck closed?

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq

Last edited by LT1HAHA; 10-22-2010 at 02:42 PM.
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post #7 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 06:26 PM
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I'd question whether the sandwich adapter is allowing any flow at all. I'd be inclined to mount another temp probe at the oil cooler inlet and install a switch so that you can toggle back and forth between temp locations with your guage. If the cooler inlet is way cooler than your other location, I'd say it's a virtual certainty that the adapter isn't flowing.
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post #8 of 24 Old 10-22-2010, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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What I did was take the cooler off and see if temps were higher, which indeed they were. It would run in just normal driving around 220-225. With the cooler on it runs nominal temps in the 190-200 range.

I also took the lines off and left the sandwich adapter on and turned the pump with a drill. A decent amount of oil came flowing out but I don't know if it's flowing a 100% or 50%....

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-23-2010, 10:03 AM
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How much oil are you showing on the dipstick? If the crank is getting into the oil when you are running it hard, the crank beating through the oil will heat it up fast. Not to mention it will aerate the oil which will reduce its' ability to lubricate.

Run the engine at about 4000 RPMwith the accusump open, while the engine is running at 4000 RPM, close the valve to the accusump. Shut off the engine and check the oil level. This will show you how much oil is really in the pan while the engine is being pushed a little.

I usually ran my oil about 1 quart below the "Full" level to make sure it was not being hit by the crank. Since you have the accusump, you don't have to worry about briefly uncovering the pickup in the pan.

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post #10 of 24 Old 10-23-2010, 10:17 PM
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You might try running a lighter weight oil to see if it helps. Have you felt of the oil cooler or lines, or measured the cooler temp with an IR gun to see what it's running? That would tell you if the thermostat is flowing oil through the cooler pretty easily. I run a 10-30 oil on my AI mustang, using a standard flow oil pump from Precision. I still get 55psi cold, 45psi hot, at 3K+ rpms. I've been told a lighter oil will run cooler...

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post #11 of 24 Old 10-24-2010, 01:35 AM
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I have a similar issue with oil temps and also can't figure out why.

I started with a Ford Racing 302 crate motor (dyno'ed at 312RWHP). My oil temps of 220-240 were pretty consistently 40 degrees above water temps.

After finishing the build of my Dart Sportsman 347 (dyno'ed at 390RWHP), I installed that motor and my oil temps run 260-280 with water still at 180.

Since it was a direct engine swap, the external oil filters, oil cooler, accusump, fan, and all hoses are the same. Both motors have Canton road race pans though the 347 has a Canton windage tray and the 302 does not. I ran both motors with Valvoline 20-50 race oil and spin both to 6200 rpm. Both have Melling Select standard volume, standard pressure oil pumps. The oil temp sensor is located at the filter tree so the temps are what's coming out of the motor and before the cooler. I have no thermostats.

I started with Kooks headers on the 347 that ran awfully close to the oil pan. Close enough that I had to dimple one tube to install. Thinking that the headers may be heating up the pan, I replaced them with BBK long tubes I ran on the 302 motor. No change.

I'm now trying thinner, Redline 15-40 race oil. Temperatures are about the same and hot oil pressure went down I believe due to lower viscosity at high temps.

Blackstone oil analysis did't show anything too unusual. Chromium and titanium were a bit high and probably coming from the valve train. Viscosity was on the lower end of the range but within limits.

On warm up laps the oil temp will maybe hit 240. Run it hard and temps steadily climb to 280. Back off and temps will come down to 250.

I don't understand the internal oil path and don't know if there's a difference between a standard Ford block and a Dart Sportsman block that could account for the temperature differences. A couple of friends say the solution is cover the oil temp gauge and don't worry about it but I sure would like to understand why.
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post #12 of 24 Old 10-24-2010, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Well Eric I took your advise today and removed about a quart of oil putting the oil in the "add" part of the dipstick on my Canton pan. Much to my surprise, it did improve oil temps slightly and increase slightly the amount of time it took the oil to heat up as well as give me an extra 2 psi of oil pressure.

This tells me that my crank was beating the oil and the added 2 psi is from there being less aerated oil in the sump. Mind you I can still heat up the oil fairly quickly and I'm sure on a 20 minute track session I would have no problems getting to the 300+ degree oil temp mark. I think I am going to look into purchasing a 34 or 44 row Mocal cooler before I get it out on track this year. Compared to the Mocal coolers the one I have now still has more surface area but I'm hoping the Mocal's are much more efficient....perhaps?..?

I did notice something else too, when I did this I had the accusump closed for my first run through the back roads (on accident I forgot to open it) and I noticed that under hard brakes pressure would drop off to near 0. It also would drop a bit on hard pulls out of right hand corners in second gear. This surprises me that I would be uncovering the pickup in a road race oil pan with baffles and trap doors from only being a quart low! Granted with the accusump short bursts of dropped pressure would be no big deal but a long right hand sweeper, long braking zone or something could possibly uncover the pickup for long enough to run the accusump down to 20 PSI or so.

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-24-2010, 08:02 PM
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How accurate are your dipstick markings? Remember that the Canton 7 qt pan is 7 qts in the "system". Add in an oil cooler, lines, Accusump, lines, and so on, you have a complete custom system.

I had to "custom" mark my dipstick. I started with an empty pan, added a quart, let it drain down, made a mark, added a quart, let it drain down, made another mark, etc. etc. With the 7 qt system, they are expecting a little less than 6 qts in the pan. I typically would run just shy of 5 in the pan.

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post #14 of 24 Old 10-25-2010, 01:05 PM
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I disagree. With a 7Q Pan, you get 7Q in the pan +1 for lines/filter. I run 8Q of Mobil-1 20W50.
If I get low on oil, I will see it in braking zones, and oil pressure flutters diving into turn#1 after loooong straight. I check, add to 8Q capacity, and oil pressure solid again.

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post #15 of 24 Old 10-25-2010, 02:00 PM
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Like A79coupe says, here's the response I got from Canton when I asked them to clear up the confusion a few years ago...they intend it to be a 7-quart system (pan + filter), not a 7-quart pan. But, add in an oil cooler and you have to add more accordingly.

Quote:
"Good Morning,
Your pan is a 7 qt. system, this is pan and filter.
Put 7 qts. in, turn it over to get oil thru your system. Shut the engine off. You are set at your capacity.
You can do 2 things with the dipstick...you can either leave it the length you want and put a new hash mark for your pan on the stick, or cut it like you mentioned in your email."

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post #16 of 24 Old 10-25-2010, 02:48 PM
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Been down this road..., do a search by my screen name Toys here and on CC, it sounds word for word like my nightmare after putting in my 408W. What made the biggest difference for me was boxing in the radiator, and making sure it's open at the bottom between the bumper cover and the radiator. I also replaced the small 2" air deflector at the radiator support with a piece of ABS plastic about 5" tall the width of the rad support. You need to make sure you're pulling air in from the bottom, not just the opening in the fascia.

Toys - gota have'm.....


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post #17 of 24 Old 10-25-2010, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drudis View Post
I disagree. With a 7Q Pan, you get 7Q in the pan +1 for lines/filter. I run 8Q of Mobil-1 20W50.
If I get low on oil, I will see it in braking zones, and oil pressure flutters diving into turn#1 after loooong straight. I check, add to 8Q capacity, and oil pressure solid again.
Same situation I am dealing with. With 7 quarts in the pan it seemes to be ok. When I have 6 I get fluctuating oil pressures. What kind of oil temps are you dealing with Drudis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toys View Post
Been down this road..., do a search by my screen name Toys here and on CC, it sounds word for word like my nightmare after putting in my 408W. What made the biggest difference for me was boxing in the radiator, and making sure it's open at the bottom between the bumper cover and the radiator. I also replaced the small 2" air deflector at the radiator support with a piece of ABS plastic about 5" tall the width of the rad support. You need to make sure you're pulling air in from the bottom, not just the opening in the fascia.
Yea Toys, I have read/ followed many of your oil presure posts. I already have a radiator boxed in and air flow seems to be adequite as water temps stay consistant.
What kind of oil pressure and temps are you geting now after running hard? Mine are around the 42-45PSI mark at 6,000R's with temps of around 250 degrees.

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq
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post #18 of 24 Old 11-13-2010, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I sent in an oil sample to Blackstone labs to make sure all is well with the engine. It appears that despite me worring about somewhat low pressures and such all is well internally.
Here's the report:

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post #19 of 24 Old 11-13-2010, 06:46 PM
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If you're REALLY worried, have them run a TBN analysis next time. It'll tell you the amount of additives still left in the oil. I often see oil temps in the 270 range and my Blackstones have all been great.
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post #20 of 24 Old 11-13-2010, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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I think I am going to do that next time

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486rwhp/ 430rwtq

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post #21 of 24 Old 11-14-2010, 03:36 AM
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If you mounted the oil cooler in the front bumper, then there is virtually zero pressure differential across it and therefore no air is going to flow through it.

Since it is mounted a couple inches in front of the radiator, there is high pressure air behind the cooler as well as in front of it. You need to move it back so it is on top of the radiator, or at least make a sealed box/tube between the oil cooler and the front of the radiator.

In Toys case, the airdam extension helped him a lot because it caused a larger pressure differential to exist between the front and rear of the radiator. Greater pressure differential equals more airflow through the cooler.

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post #22 of 24 Old 11-14-2010, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Jack. I will make a sealed box from the rear of the cooler to the front of the rad!

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
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post #23 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 03:03 PM
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Did boxing in the oil cooler work for you?
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post #24 of 24 Old 03-21-2012, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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It worked "better".... I took the opportunity over the winter to move it right in front of the lower opening in my saleen bumper cover. It seems to be working even better there. I'm going to Mid-Ohio in a few weeks and am anxious to see how much better the new location keeps oil temps.

91 Road Racing Fox. N/A 383W. Full MM setup front and rear with Bilstein coil-overs. 14x1.25 Wilwood 6 piston fronts with Wilwood 13x1 single piston rears.
486rwhp/ 430rwtq
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