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post #1 of 27 Old 10-03-2010, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Question about road course HP.

I have a 93 coupe with sn brakes and some suspension mods - ill probably go with an MM box.. I go to one hpde a year but I enjoy a handling car on the street. The extra power is fun on the street too. I have the option right now to install a dart 331 w/ s-trim or possibly get a 2011 5.0 motor.

I was wondering if any of you have any success using a higher hp centrifugal setup on the road course?

Jeff


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post #2 of 27 Old 10-03-2010, 04:56 PM
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People have had great success with it, but it brings a whole other dimension of cooling, packaging, complication, and failure points with it.

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post #3 of 27 Old 10-03-2010, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I realized that.. I'm just trying to decide what combo to pick .

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post #4 of 27 Old 10-03-2010, 07:53 PM
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My S-Trim 302 has been a blast during HPDE. As MFE stated it just adds another thing that can break. I pay close attention to my maintanance to ensure reliability.
A blown 331 can be a handful especially if ones car has limited brake and suspension upgrades.

Out of the 2 motor choices, I would choose the dart for the ease of the install.

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post #5 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 04:31 AM
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My car has 310rwhp. I'm very happy with it. I only wish it was a 10:1 compression motor instead of 8.5:1. It could use a little more midrange power

1993 GT 310rwhp / 351rwtq
AFR FTI EDEL Combo. MM, T-56 3.73, Brembo, 275s on 03 Cobras all around

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post #6 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 08:16 AM
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You could start with a 9.0:1 331 motor and just stay N/A...in the future, you could always throw on the s-trim once the car (and you) are capable of using the extra hp.
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post #7 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 08:24 AM
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To me, the ideal motor would certainly be N/A and have a good RPM range and not something under alot of stress. I'm thinking something like 10:1 compression and either that 331 or more preferably a 347.

350-375hp(with aluminum) in a Fox that CAN GRIP would be a great car.
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post #8 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 10:28 AM
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The cool factor and day-to-day livability of the 2011 5.0L would be awesome, the installation of said motor, not as much.

Of course a supercharged OHV motor could be pretty livable too if the cam and exhaust setup isn't super aggressive, problem there really is cooling. Lots of laps at RPM are going to wreck havoc on the temp of a supercharged engine and you'll need to do some figuring (or more likely trial and error- during costly track days) for cooling the water and the incoming air charge.

Either setup will have it's plus' and minus'.
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post #9 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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400 na HP from an OE motor like that new 2011 sure is tempting.

I know this goes slightly against the "Mustang" guy thinking but as I've gotten older, I've really started liking the higher-reving imports like Posche, Ferrari... It's pretty attractive to me to make my musclecar a little more "exotic" with the DOHC NA power and likely the MM grip box.

Here's what I'm working with.
http://gallery.me.com/jefffoster#100...lack&view=grid

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post #10 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 11:55 AM
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"I was wondering if any of you have any success using a higher hp centrifugal setup on the road course?"


sadly, no. my vorteched 302 didn't hold up to the punishment. but, i drove the piss out of my car during 6-10 track days a year. one track day a year hardly qualifies it as severe duty. i wouldn't sweat it.


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post #11 of 27 Old 10-04-2010, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
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I was wondering if any of you have any success using a higher hp centrifugal setup on the road course?
Jeff
I believe Darius runs an s-trim on his car.
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post #12 of 27 Old 10-05-2010, 10:11 AM
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Been using the same S-trim for 10 + years now [knock on wood].


http://www.dariusrudis.com

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post #13 of 27 Old 10-05-2010, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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^^ and a clutch fan? How many of those have you been through? My car has 33k miles - so the fan is perfect but I wasn't anticipating using it for my combo...just didn't think they held up.

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post #14 of 27 Old 10-05-2010, 12:35 PM
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Old photo, while engine was being assembled.
I dont have ANY fan on there [no clutch, no electric, none]. As long as I am moving its okay. Concerned a bit during long pit waiting, but ontrack no concerns.

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post #15 of 27 Old 10-05-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2k2GT View Post
To me, the ideal motor would certainly be N/A and have a good RPM range and not something under alot of stress. I'm thinking something like 10:1 compression and either that 331 or more preferably a 347.

350-375hp(with aluminum) in a Fox that CAN GRIP would be a great car.
I would reverse the statement of 331 vs 347. 347 is going to have the wrist pin higher on the piston and this leaves a weak point on the ring landings. Where the 331 wrist pin will be lower and give more meat to the ring landings. For a motor that is run hard and possibly with a blower this is something to consider.

Patrick

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post #16 of 27 Old 10-05-2010, 05:22 PM
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^^ and a clutch fan? How many of those have you been through? My car has 33k miles - so the fan is perfect but I wasn't anticipating using it for my combo...just didn't think they held up.
I've traded off between the clutch fan with no shroud and a Flex-a-lite black magic and I'll be honest, with the clutch fan (as far as I know it has 160k on it) the car stays cooler.

I'm planning to move to a Mark VIII, Taurus, or Contour fan but haven't gotten around to it.
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post #17 of 27 Old 10-05-2010, 05:33 PM
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For a motor that is run hard and possibly with a blower this is something to consider.

Patrick
Right, but that's why I stated "it would certainly be N/A and not under alot of stress".

Darius makes the blower motor work great, but with my luck i'd need it as simplistic as possible.
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post #18 of 27 Old 10-06-2010, 10:21 PM
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Although the engine isn't in my handling car, my 9:1 compression dart 331ci makes awesome power across a wide RPM range and I know it'd be a monster on a road course. I built the shortblock to be the foundation for the T76 PTK single turbo setup I have, the car runs so well NA though that it's been 3yrs now and I still haven't had enough desire to put the turbo on. The car is dead nuts reliable, it doesn't surge, it doesn't buck, it just pulls from any and all RPM's. The basics are:

-RNH built dart sportsman block 9:1 331
-Scat 4340 forged crank and H beam rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
-SRP forged pistons
-internally balanced
-AFR 185 comp heads with their upgraded valve springs
-probe shaft mount rockers
-FTI cam from my old 302 NA combo
-Holley systemax II intake ported by TMOSS
-MAC 1-3/4 long tubes
-Dr. Gas 3" into 2.5" X pipe
-2.5" cat back with dynomax welded ultraflow mufflers

I run and tune it myself with an AEM stand alone. Here's my latest dyno graph made on a HORRIBLE weather day:




If built right, the 331 can perform very well NA, and if you have a dart you can go 363 or more with a >4.125" bore and a 3.5" stroke. It "should" be more reliable and simpler to maintain than a blown setup over the long haul as well.

-1995 GT Convertible show/strip project
12.03 @112.5MPH NA 302; 11.50 @121mph NA 331
-1994 Cobra...SOLD

Last edited by Killercanary; 10-06-2010 at 10:24 PM.
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post #19 of 27 Old 10-06-2010, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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I already have the 331 and it sounds exactly like yours . RNH built mine as well. I have different rockers but the same heads and internals...intake too.
I think the cam I have might be somewhat blower specific but maybe it will work. Hmm.. Maybe I'll go na initially then add the blower... Or maybe I'll just switch to na for track events

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post #20 of 27 Old 10-06-2010, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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This should look familiar


331ci Stroker, 4.03” DART Sportsman 8.20" deck
CRANK Eagle Internal Balance 4340 3.25” STROKE X 2.10/.927 PIN
5.400 ROD X 2.249 MAIN
RODS Eagle 4340 3D H-BEAM ARP 2000 Rod Bolt Upgrade
PISTONS PROBE SRS Series 14.2cc dish
PT# 12352-030 JOB#
CH 1.175 PIN .927”
WRIST PINS Probe Steel.927” Diameter, Dual Spiral Locks
MAIN Clevite 77 MS-590H
ROD CLEVITE 77 PT# CB-1227-H in ROD and CAP(BEARING MADE FOR LARGE FILLET EDGE CRANK)
RINGS PERFECT CIRCLE PT# 315-0049.005
4.03” 1/16 1/16 3/16 8CYL
JE RAIL SUPPORTS
BALANCE 0.OZ Pioneer Steel Hub, SFI Approved, Latemodel
BLOCK DART Sportsman (Align honed, decked, squared, blueprinted, bored and finish honed with TQ plates, lifter bores honed, brass freeze plugs, coated cam bearings) Modified/Massaged oil passages for better internal flow and draining.
CAM Flowtech Induction Custom Hyd Roller
SC-13F14S-HR12 +4*
.568/.576 218/228 112
(Cam was within 1 degree when it was degreed to motor)
Billet Timing Set
Ford Racing Hyd Roller Lifters, .001” clearance
Ford Racing Billet Cam Retainer Plate
DART Coated Cam Bearings
Canton 7qt Deep Sump Pan, Canton Pick-up, Canton Dip Stick, Melling 10688 HP Pump, adj spring + 25% volume , Ford Racing Chrome-moly oil drive shaft shaft. Fel-Pro 1 pc Oil Pan Gasket OS-30616R
CYLINDER HEADS AFR 185 PT#1388, Supplied by FTI with a PS3 upgrade (springs and seals)
ARP ½” head studs 154-4201
INDUCTION Holley SysteMAX II
Fel-Pro 1262
Scorpion Stud Mount 1.72” Rockers
TFS Pushrods , 1 piece chrome-moly 5/16” Diameter 6.20” L (Same length as supplied by FTI)
Ford Racing Chrom Valve Covers
New Ford timing cover
Chrome waterpump

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post #21 of 27 Old 10-07-2010, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
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and if you have a dart you can go 363 or more with a >4.125" bore and a 3.5" stroke. It "should" be more reliable and simpler to maintain than a blown setup over the long haul as well.
I would think that anyone doing a Dart block and buying pistons would automatically go with the 4.125 bore, it is essentially free power at that point.

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post #22 of 27 Old 10-07-2010, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Killercanary View Post
Although the engine isn't in my handling car, my 9:1 compression dart 331ci makes awesome power across a wide RPM range and I know it'd be a monster on a road course. I built the shortblock to be the foundation for the T76 PTK single turbo setup I have, the car runs so well NA though that it's been 3yrs now and I still haven't had enough desire to put the turbo on. The car is dead nuts reliable, it doesn't surge, it doesn't buck, it just pulls from any and all RPM's. The basics are:

-RNH built dart sportsman block 9:1 331
-Scat 4340 forged crank and H beam rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
-SRP forged pistons
-internally balanced
-AFR 185 comp heads with their upgraded valve springs
-probe shaft mount rockers
-FTI cam from my old 302 NA combo
-Holley systemax II intake ported by TMOSS
-MAC 1-3/4 long tubes
-Dr. Gas 3" into 2.5" X pipe
-2.5" cat back with dynomax welded ultraflow mufflers

I run and tune it myself with an AEM stand alone. Here's my latest dyno graph made on a HORRIBLE weather day:




If built right, the 331 can perform very well NA, and if you have a dart you can go 363 or more with a >4.125" bore and a 3.5" stroke. It "should" be more reliable and simpler to maintain than a blown setup over the long haul as well.
Those are impressive numbers for a 331 only spinning to around 6200. My next motor will be an N/A 331, but I'm only allowed around 350rwhp at my weight in my class. I may just stick with the AFR 165 which should keep the hp in check, but make great torque numbers. Torque is not regulated in my class.

NASA AIX Outlaw West Coast
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post #23 of 27 Old 10-08-2010, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
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I run and tune it myself with an AEM stand alone. Here's my latest dyno graph made on a HORRIBLE weather day:
Don't loose site and just look at parts. Tunning can make or break an engine combo!
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post #24 of 27 Old 10-11-2010, 10:56 AM
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DaveW- I went 331 for one reason and one reason only. I already had the turbo kit and it came with a T64E turbo. I spoke with the guys at PTK, Rod Short from Precision turbo and others and due to the smallish turbo and the fact that my turbo kit was designed around a T4 flange, back pressure with 363ci may have proved to be a problem. 331 allowed me to run the T64 if I wanted too and it also allowed me enough cubes to spool a T76 without issue. In hind site, I should ahve sold the turbo kit and run a high compression 363.

Stangonline- LOL! That is a similar combo! I say run it NA and see what happens, you may end up as happy as me and leave it NA for a while too.

Coupe de surf- I actually made 380rwhp/380rwtq with this same combo with AFR 165's, 1.6 RR's, 1-5/8 shorty headers, and a 2.5" bassani off road X pipe. Here was that graph:



Mustang408- tuning is something I love and hate at the same time. Its fun when it goes well, and downright painful when it doesn't.

-1995 GT Convertible show/strip project
12.03 @112.5MPH NA 302; 11.50 @121mph NA 331
-1994 Cobra...SOLD
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post #25 of 27 Old 10-11-2010, 01:33 PM
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415/410 on a 9:1 331 ??!!??

My Dart 331 runs another 2 pts of compression with the same head/spring combo and a ported RPM 2 with a custom cam thats close to an XE282 and I'm pretty sure I'm not within 30 hp/tq of those numbers.

The AEM must account for a LOT of hidden power.

91 notch, 3000#, Astro T-5, Dart 10.5:1 331, RPM2, AFR 185, custom cam, Max Motorsports, StopTech
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post #26 of 27 Old 10-24-2010, 10:17 PM
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That car looks familiar... Good luck with build.


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post #27 of 27 Old 11-17-2010, 12:20 AM
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I haven't done ALOT so to speak but I have done a few 20 minute open track sessions with my setup and didn't have any problems at all. I drove it pretty hard. 3rd/4th gear the entire time. I also drive it pretty hard year round.

Matt, 90' GT 347, 6037 heads, V1 Si-trim, 11psi, B31 Cam, T56, SV Intake, BE/Tweecer Tuned. 550rwhp 513tq
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