Question for Strano - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 Old 09-19-2009, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RIPLEY WV
Posts: 112
Question for Strano

I have a 95gt with several mods done so far:
front suspension rear suspension
poly bush MM panhard
koni yellow single koni yellow single
MM caster/camber Upr poly lowers
c-springs no bushings c-springs no bushings
cobra brakes cobra brakes
subframes

It has a powerdyne supercharger on it as of now, may take it off and shoot for c-prepared.

Question is I may do a torque arm later while reading on MM website that poly based arms shouldnt be used with a torque arm for binding purposes. Is there going to be that much difference between MM arms and polybased arms?

MJ86GT is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 Old 09-19-2009, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RIPLEY WV
Posts: 112
I sold my fully prepped 86gt c-prepared car not long ago. My 95 is going to stay more street based with alot of race inspired pieces. Not so much worried about ride quality if that matters.

MJ86GT is offline  
post #3 of 11 Old 09-21-2009, 04:26 PM
Registered User
 
Ciotti's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 186
For now you could go back to your stock LCA's and have a blast in ESP where you'll be a lot more competitive and your PAX will be much better than CP or SM. Also, those FRPP C springs are a bit soft, H&R Races should make a decent difference in keeping the body roll under control so you're not sending the front wheels into positive camber during cornering and they won't turn your spine to dust on the street because you have those Koni Yellows. Also as I just found out thanks to Sam, a big ol' front bar will definitely make a difference in stiffening up the front end to keep that roll under control





Here's some really good info about rear end bind from MM...


While bind is only one of many parameters determining the handling characteristics of a suspension system, it is useful information, and has been a subject of great debate on these message boards. As part of the research we did in developing our rear suspension system, MM has actually done quite a bit of roll-bind testing. I can offer some hard numbers for everyone to consider. I will define ‘bind’ to be any resistance to wheel movement in a roll situation that is not from the spring or sway bar.

Let me say that this information is not intended to be negative toward any particular system, but should be used to gain understanding of the way cars with different setups feel/handle. This information can help everyone to optimize whatever setup they may have.

Of the tests we have done, following are the tests relating to the rear suspension systems most often discussed. All tests are with the sway bar disconnected, cycling one wheel through 3” bump/droop as if in a roll situation. The results are organized in order from least bind to the most bind.

1) 4 Link - LCA with spherical bearings or rod ends at both ends / Stock UCA’s
6lb/in Linear
This shows the stock upper arms introduce 6 lb/in of wheel rate.

2) 4 Link – MM LCA 3 piece poly, spherical bearing / Stock UCAs
9lb/in Linear
This shows an additional 3 lb/in resistance from our 3 piece urethane compared to a rod end.

3) MMTA/PB – LCA with spherical bearings or rod ends at both ends
10lb/in Linear
Here we removes the 6lb/in from the UCAs, but adds 10lb/in due to lateral deflection of the TA during roll.

4) 4 Link – Stock LCA / Stock UCAs
11lb/in Linear
This shows that the stock LCA adds 5 lb/in of wheel rate, which is actually more than our LCA of case 2.

5) MMTA/PB – MM LCA 3 piece poly, spherical bearing
13lb/in Linear
Again illustrating an additional 3lb/in additional resistance of our 3 piece urethane compared to the rod ends in case 3.

6) 4 Link – LCA with 3 Piece Urethane at both ends / Stock UCAs
26lb/in Linear
Case 6 shows that the 3 piece poly (or any LCA) works best with a spherical bearing at one end. 17lb/in is added over case 2. Note that the effect of adding a 3 piece urethane at only one end adds 3lb/in. Add it at BOTH ends and the increase is 17lb/in… NOT 6 lb/in as one might expect.

7) 4 Link - LCA with delrin, spherical bearing / Stock UCAs
30lb/in Linear
This shows that delrin does not allow necessary angular deflection resulting in an additional 21lb/in over case 2.

8) 4 Link With PB - Stock LCA / Stock UCA
In the first 1” travel 47lb/in
Between 2-3” of travel 30lb/in Decreasing Rate
In case 8 & 9 the Panhard bar defining a new lower roll center is forcing control arms to travel a new path of higher resistance.

9) 4 Link With PB – MM LCA / Stock UCA
In the first 1” travel 50lb/in
Between 2-3” of travel 30lb/in Decreasing Rate

10) 4 Link – Stock LCA / UCA with rod end at chassis, stock rubber at axle
In the first 1” travel 63lb/in
Between 1-2” travel 39lb/in
Between 2-3” travel 20lb/in Decreasing Rate
Case 10 represents trying to locate the axle with a stiffer bushing configuration on the upper control arms. Since the upper arms need to have an effective length change, the rod end in this case actually creates MORE bind.

11) 4 Link – LCA with urethane at both ends / Stock UCA’s
67lb/in Linear
Case 11 is similar to case 6, but shows that a standard poly/poly control arm does not allow much angular change.

Keep in mind that the above information is with no cornering force on the axle. Therefore, there is a huge gap in this information if you are trying to correlate this data to how these systems would feel in use. I would say that the Torque-arm in case 3 & 5 outperforms any other case shown, although it does not have the least amount of bind in this test. We have begun to build a fixture that loads the axle laterally, as if in a corner, to THEN see how the bind behaves. Any system with a Panhard bar should have no significant increase in bind over what is already shown here. This predictability that a PB provides is why we recommend it on a 4 link (with the correct control arms) for people on a budget, or Solo II Street Prepared cars (not allowed to remove uppers). True, you are inducing bind in this situation, but that bind should not significantly change as you load the suspension laterally. When driving the car, the effective added spring rate (from bind) balances well with the new lower RC, and the improved stability and predictability. YES this is a compromise, but I feel it beats trying to locate the axle laterally with stiffer bushings. Obviously, if the pocket book or rulebook permits, the best thing to do is add a Torque-arm and remove the upper control arms. All this binding is also why you are able to add at least 50lb/in wheel rate to the rear when you add a Torque-Arm and remove the UCAs.

Ehren VanSchmus
MM Design Engineer

MM subs, springs, and cc plates, Koni SA's, Steeda x2's, front bar, and bumpsteer kit
DBA Rotors, Hawk HPS's, FRPP 3.73's, Eaton diff, and 17x9 Cobra R's with 285 Kuhmo XS's
2008 SJ SCCA Rookie of the Year and 2010/2011 SJ SCCA Solo Chair
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Ciotti; 09-21-2009 at 04:44 PM.
Ciotti is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 11 Old 09-21-2009, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RIPLEY WV
Posts: 112
Thanks alot of info there that i'll need to sit down and decipher with no toddlers around.

After a long talk with Sam today i'll probably go with the Race springs and rear arms for now and see how that works. Then maybe venture towards a bigger front bar if needed. i'm stock piling parts for the spring so hopefully get out to some more events next year.

Sam, I told you today that I had Eibach pros, sorry I forgot I changed them out with a set of c-springs I had.

In ESP are welded subframes legal? From what I read they are as long as nothing is welded in the middle. ONly on the ends.
MJ86GT is offline  
post #5 of 11 Old 09-21-2009, 08:57 PM
Registered User
 
Ciotti's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 186
You're exactly right about the subframes, I believe the rule specifically says that there cannot be more than 3 connection points so you can weld them in the front and back and then the third point is the seat brace.

MM subs, springs, and cc plates, Koni SA's, Steeda x2's, front bar, and bumpsteer kit
DBA Rotors, Hawk HPS's, FRPP 3.73's, Eaton diff, and 17x9 Cobra R's with 285 Kuhmo XS's
2008 SJ SCCA Rookie of the Year and 2010/2011 SJ SCCA Solo Chair
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Ciotti is offline  
post #6 of 11 Old 09-21-2009, 09:01 PM
Registered User
 
Sam Strano's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 739
Welded SFC's are legal as long as they aren't seam welded... Just at the normal attachment points.



And thanks for the nice conversation, it was refreshing today especially.

Sam Strano
7x SCCA National Champion + 7x SCCA ProSolo Class Champion, 2009 SCCA ProSolo Overall Champion
I drive them, I compete in them, I sell more variety of brands than any other company.
STRANOPARTS.COM
Sam Strano is offline  
post #7 of 11 Old 09-21-2009, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RIPLEY WV
Posts: 112
Its really good to talk to someone who knows whats going on and why. On my c-prepared car Mike Maier was a huge help in setting shocks and the third link. He's a super guy to talk to from my experiences.

Sam, it was good talking to you today. I tend to be like a sponge when talking to knowledgable folks and absorb so much that I get overwhelmed. While you were talking I had my scratch pad jotting everything down. Yep, looks like chicken scratches.

I'll get with you in a few days and get those things ordered.

+1 for STRANOPARTS.COM

Thanks again
MJ86GT is offline  
post #8 of 11 Old 09-22-2009, 09:27 AM
Registered User
 
Ciotti's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 186
If your C Prepared car had Maier parts, did you happen to have their full length tubular subframes on there? I've always wondered how they are but I've never been able to find anyone that has them.

MM subs, springs, and cc plates, Koni SA's, Steeda x2's, front bar, and bumpsteer kit
DBA Rotors, Hawk HPS's, FRPP 3.73's, Eaton diff, and 17x9 Cobra R's with 285 Kuhmo XS's
2008 SJ SCCA Rookie of the Year and 2010/2011 SJ SCCA Solo Chair
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Ciotti; 09-22-2009 at 09:33 AM.
Ciotti is offline  
post #9 of 11 Old 09-22-2009, 10:45 AM
Registered User
 
SCCA_Stang's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (13)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Yorkville, IL
Posts: 459
Ciotti,

I noticed that he siad in his first post that he had a SuperCharger... then I noticed that you stated that he could run ESP.... I thought you couldn't run ESP with a non factory blower.... Maybe you were refering to if he took it off, like he said he might do.

MY LUGNUTS REQUIRE MORE TORQUE THAN YOUR HONDA MAKES
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SCCA_Stang is offline  
post #10 of 11 Old 09-22-2009, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RIPLEY WV
Posts: 112
No on the subframes, we custom made them to tie into the lower arm mounts and cage. I did see Maier's subframes and looked good thats all I know.

He only verbally helped (he was alot of help) since he's on the west coast and im on the east. I've seen his subs but not sure how they fit. He couldnt really sell me anything since c-prepared is pretty much a custom homebrewed class.

Pretty sure the charger is coming off and its not a factory piece even though it was sold through Ford Racing in 1997. So ESP is the class i'm leaning towards.

MJ86GT is offline  
post #11 of 11 Old 09-22-2009, 02:55 PM
Registered User
 
Ciotti's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posts: 186
Good catch, I meant to type "If you take off the supercharger" somewhere in there but I forgot

MM subs, springs, and cc plates, Koni SA's, Steeda x2's, front bar, and bumpsteer kit
DBA Rotors, Hawk HPS's, FRPP 3.73's, Eaton diff, and 17x9 Cobra R's with 285 Kuhmo XS's
2008 SJ SCCA Rookie of the Year and 2010/2011 SJ SCCA Solo Chair
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Ciotti is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(Late) Congrats to Strano for Peru Tour Win DaveW Road Racing/Auto X 4 07-08-2009 10:57 PM
Going racing: Strano Performance will be closed 3/11-3/16, re-opening 3/17. Sam Strano Road Racing/Auto X 9 03-10-2009 01:58 PM
Congrats to Sam Strano tigerdrvr Road Racing/Auto X 26 10-18-2008 09:21 AM
MFE,Strano and other experts.... j rick kirby Road Racing/Auto X 2 09-17-2008 08:15 AM
Congrats to Sam Strano DaveW Road Racing/Auto X 13 10-10-2007 09:36 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome