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post #1 of 17 Old 09-08-2009, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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Coilovers or Coil Springs

I have a 1994 Mustang GT with very minor upgrades. Cobra top end, so I'm not pushing much power. And I have Tokico blues all around with Mach 1 springs. I don't know how to explain better than it just feels bouncy. The front end just doesn't sit well, and all I can think of is that the 5.0 just isn't heavy enough for those springs (meant for the 4 valve) to really settle in. I like the ride height, but the springs are just a pain over bounces. I really like how they feel in corners though. Just the right amount of give.

After reading the thread on Tokico Blues not being very good on here, it got me thinking that maybe I should look into buying a set of used Cobra struts to go in place of them to see if that helps anything. After thinking about that, I decided that maybe coil-overs are the way to go, because they will have less lb/in making them absorb the bumps better than these springs do.

I find myself a lot of the time jumping to "the best" rather than just trying to make do with what works, so I'm wondering if I should try a slightly softer spring rate, or maybe something progressive?

I'm not really looking for a plush ride, I am just hoping for something that feels more settled, and I don't know of a better way to describe that either. Let me know what you guys think.

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post #2 of 17 Old 09-08-2009, 03:26 PM
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I'd start with better struts. Sounds like the ones you have don't have enough rebound control for your springs.

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post #3 of 17 Old 09-08-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntchds View Post
After reading the thread on Tokico Blues not being very good on here, it got me thinking that maybe I should look into buying a set of used Cobra struts to go in place of them to see if that helps anything. After thinking about that, I decided that maybe coil-overs are the way to go, because they will have less lb/in making them absorb the bumps better than these springs do.
Keep in mind that while coil-overs have a softer spring rate, that's only because they act farther out along the control arm (thus have more leverage). The wheel rate will almost certainly be higher with coil-overs than it is with your Mach1 springs, unless you get some really soft coil-over springs.

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I'm not really looking for a plush ride, I am just hoping for something that feels more settled, and I don't know of a better way to describe that either. Let me know what you guys think.
I think MFE's comment is probably spot on. It's amazing what a good set of dampers will do for ride quality. I've said it before in various threads and I'll continue to cite my personal example. I went from 300#/in coil-overs on Koni Reds (underdamped - dampers just weren't enough to control that spring rate) to 425#/in springs on Koni Double Adjustables. Despite going up nearly 50% in spring rate, ride quality improved because the dampers were so much better and were able to control the motion of the springs.

It won't be a small investment, but I think a set of MM Bilsteins would pay big dividends for you.

'89 GT convertible, N/A 357W, MM front susp w/425# coil-overs and Koni D/As, MM TA/PB rear setup (Koni Yellows, 390-430# springs), Stoptech 332mm / 12" Baers, MM 6 point rollbar, Maier 1.5" flared fenders & quarters, 18x9.5" front/18x10.5" rear Enkei RPF-1s (street), 18x10" CCW C-10s (track), etc...
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post #4 of 17 Old 09-08-2009, 04:24 PM
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You can always try to find a set of cheap used 03/04 Non vert struts. Thats what I'm running and they are great. If you buy new go through MM. Awesome guys.

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post #5 of 17 Old 09-08-2009, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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I was on the phone with MM for a good half hour today, and you are correct in saying that they seem to be great guys, but I asked for suggestions on different struts a few times and it was almost like they were avoiding giving their opinion. I don't have a bad thing to say about them, though, because they even gave me advice on the EVM watts that I have, even though it isn't their product. Really top notch staff.

I plan on going coil over front/rear eventually, so I would like struts that could handle that, but for now I just want the springs to be better dampened. I'm really thinking about getting Cobra struts.
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post #6 of 17 Old 09-09-2009, 01:00 PM
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The Cobra struts can be used as coil overs too.

I picked up my set with less than 10k on them for 150$

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post #7 of 17 Old 09-09-2009, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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Wow that's a lot cheaper than I expected. Yeah I found the blue Tokicos for 200 all around with Steeda 3-bolt plates on them. They said they came off of a Mach, but I thought that the Machs had the black Tokico (same internals just different exterior) HPs, and it'd be weird to have someone swap out for the blues... I really expected to have a better ride out of them than I got. I am fairly sure that the Bilsteins are the way I'm going to go then.
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post #8 of 17 Old 09-09-2009, 11:41 PM
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I have Maximum Motorsports coilovers, and absolutely love the ride. I was a doubter at first and now I just remind myself "What was I thinking!!"

1991 Mustang GT: FordStrokers 347, Jay Allen cam, 42#, TFS Heads, GT40, BBK 75mm TB/EGR spacer, 90mm LMAF, T-56, Full MM suspension, SVO brakes, NRC Disc conv., Vortech V3, Kurgan Tune & Meth: 492.4 rwhp/483.1 rwtq @ 12psi
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post #9 of 17 Old 09-10-2009, 01:43 AM Thread Starter
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So I went outside today, and thought to myself "my car looks higher on the passenger side than the driver side. So I broke out the measuring tape.


Front Left.

Front Right.

Rear Left.

Rear Right.

The rear right is an inch taller than the rest, and the others are just about the same within a quarter inch.

Is this strange to anyone else? Trunk was empty. I would have thought that the rear would be higher than the front, and never would have guessed an inch different side to side in the rear.

Last edited by cntchds; 09-10-2009 at 02:06 AM.
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post #10 of 17 Old 09-10-2009, 04:38 PM
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That's not too uncommon. It could be the spring isn't seated properly - if the "pigtail" at the bottom of the spring is towards the front, that raises the ride height at that corner.


'89 GT convertible, N/A 357W, MM front susp w/425# coil-overs and Koni D/As, MM TA/PB rear setup (Koni Yellows, 390-430# springs), Stoptech 332mm / 12" Baers, MM 6 point rollbar, Maier 1.5" flared fenders & quarters, 18x9.5" front/18x10.5" rear Enkei RPF-1s (street), 18x10" CCW C-10s (track), etc...
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post #11 of 17 Old 09-10-2009, 05:36 PM
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HAH search for "lean to one side"

There is like a 20 page thread about how fox's sit.

Mine sits low on the left side about 1 1/2. I put MM adjustable arms and was able to even it out a bit.

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post #12 of 17 Old 09-11-2009, 04:13 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting. So does anyone have the reason as to why this happens to the rear right? I don't think there is more weight in the left...
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post #13 of 17 Old 09-11-2009, 11:41 AM
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Its because these cars were built on uni-body frames from 1979. They are tin cans. LOL

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post #14 of 17 Old 09-12-2009, 03:49 AM Thread Starter
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I've actually decided that I'd much rather have new equipment than take my chances buying used stuff again, so I'm looking at either these Bilstein HD's or these Tokico D-Spec Adjustables. I've heard a lot of 05+ guys really liking the D-Specs, but has anyone used them on the SN95 or Fox platform? I really like the idea of having a bit of adjustability.

MFE, I've seen you around C-C, and I really do not understand reading the shock compression vs rebound graphs. If you wouldn't mind explaining that to me I'd be extremely appreciative. Tokico has a generic one for their D-Specs, but it doesn't mention model or anything, so I'm taking it as a grain of salt.
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post #15 of 17 Old 09-12-2009, 11:30 AM
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The way the graphs work is, you have piston travel speed plotted on the left, and resistance to movement plotted along the bottom axis. You have a horizontal line across the middle, which crosses the left axis at the point of zero shaft movement. Above that line, the axis charts shaft speed in the rebound (extension) direction, below the line, it charts shaft speed in the bump (compression) direction.

There's a couple things to know about shaft speed and direction. First, shocks and struts (which I'll call by their proper name "dampers" from here on) shouldn't necessarily be providing the same levels of damping in both directions. In compression, they're working with the springs, and in rebound, the springs are working against them trying to shove the wheel assembly down. So usually, a damper will have less resistance (damping) in the compression direction and more in the rebound direction. And it's rebound that provides most of what we try to get out of a damper from a tuning perspective.

Secondly, shaft speed. We usually refer to this as "low speed" vs "high speed", the terms being relative, of course. Low speed is the speeds the shaft is likely to be moving when the car transitions into a corner, or dives under braking, that kind of thing. High speed is what it sees when it hits a bump or a pothole.

The trick is to get the damper to control the wheel properly at high speeds without making it immobile at low speeds, and on the flip side, to provide proper control at low shaft speeds without being a wet noodle at high shaft speeds.

So you'll notice the curves are non-linear. At low shaft speeds, damping builds at a certain rate, then as shaft speed reached a certain point, the damping builds at a different rate.

This presentation is getting old now but you'll see what I mean, hopefully. Bear in mind it looks like they reversed the adjustment numbers on the Tokico graphs.

http://www.koni-na.com/presentations/mustang/
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post #16 of 17 Old 09-15-2009, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntchds View Post
Interesting. So does anyone have the reason as to why this happens to the rear right? I don't think there is more weight in the left...
What Patrick said. Check your spring positioning.

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post #17 of 17 Old 09-15-2009, 10:06 AM
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Koni DA's up front with 10" X 2.5" 400lb springs and Koni SA's in the rear with 10" X 2.5" 200 lb springs in the rear.

I have had this setup on the Coupe for over two years now and it is fantastic. The car is a complete MM suspension car with the dampers and coil over kits being from Griggs. I had the Tokico Illuminas and H&R Super Sports on it prior to these and it was good but not this good. I was also able to adjust the ride height BS out of the car as well.

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