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post #1 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Getting a bit more into handling, need help!

Hey all

So I've done the PI swap on my mustang, and am at a bang-for-buck wall in the power department (bolt ons dont do much, power adder is just too much) so I want to work on my suspension.

There's a sports car club at our college that holds autocrosses every month that I will likely be attending more and more often. However, the guy who sets up the track drives a miata, and as a result the courses can get kind of technical. My car has kumho ecsta spt tires (by far the weakest link), eibach pro kit springs, tokico hp's, c/c plates and a strut tower brace. Needless to say, it plows like a john deer through tight corners.

So my question to all of you is, what is the best way to eliminate (or reduce) this craptastic understeer? Also, there's an unsettling amount of on-center slop in the steering wheel, and it darts about on the freeway when there are ruts in the road from bigrigs and such.

What would you guys recommend? This is my tentative list so far
* Eibach front/rear swaybars
* Steeda x2 balljoints
* Steeda bumpsteer kit
* Prothane rack bushings
* Custom subframe connectors

Thanks in advance
-Tyler


1996 GT
PI swap / Eibach Pro-kit / Tokico Blue's / Short throw / Flows

Last edited by Uncle Humjaba; 07-17-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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post #2 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 02:32 PM
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Do you have cc plates?


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post #3 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, forgot to list those. The stangsuspension.com variety (nothing special, but then again they're just plates)

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PI swap / Eibach Pro-kit / Tokico Blue's / Short throw / Flows
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post #4 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 03:19 PM
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MM full length sub frame connectors
MM Lower Rear Control Arms

Those two will make a huge difference. Most of the stuff you listed are little things for fine tuning.

Also, if you haven't touch the brakes at least do a 99+ PBR swap with some new pads. If you can run 17'' tires yearly, then go for a set of Mach1, Bullit, or Cobra Calipers in the front.

Last edited by The Duke; 07-17-2009 at 03:21 PM.
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post #5 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 03:58 PM
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Plowing means you need to worry about front end grip.

Tighten up the rear or loosen up the front by adjusting swaybar stiffnesses. At events, push those CC plates as far in as they will go to give you more negative camber.

If you don't already, wider wheels and tires will help give you more grip at both ends.

Best of luck!

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post #6 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah subframes are a major thing on my list, there's a guy that does them for cheaper (bends the tubing himself and all that) that the local club recommends. Haven't heard anyone recommend LCA's though- will those help a bit with the infamous live axle stutter-step around bumpy corners?

Thanks for the help guys. I know the things I list wont make a huge difference... The main reason for the balljoints, bumpsteer, bushings, is to get rid of the way the car steers itself through ruts in the pavement (and when hitting puddles in the rain...). More of a safety thing than a performance thing. It's a miracle I didn't put the car in the wall driving 2 hours from charlotte to Clemson (1am POURING rain)

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PI swap / Eibach Pro-kit / Tokico Blue's / Short throw / Flows

Last edited by Uncle Humjaba; 07-17-2009 at 04:07 PM.
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post #7 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:04 PM
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What front sway are you running?

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post #8 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:11 PM
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Likely more negative camber is needed and quite probably too banzai with corner entry speed and/or not using the brake to get weight on the the front tires for better bite.

Technique is important too.
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post #9 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
Haven't heard anyone recommend LCA's though- will those help a bit with the infamous live axle stutter-step around bumpy corners?
Not really if you are talking about the tail wagging that's a lateral location issue.

You are trying to increase front grip.
so unless you are looking to drop some serious coin, you can do it in small increments. A front sway would help keep camber in check which will improve your front grip which will help improve front grip BUT a larger diameter front sway will also cause some understeer so I'm sure there is a happy medium in there somewhere although I'm not sure where.

Depends on what you budget is too. Shocks and springs can go a long way but they can cost a good bit too.

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post #10 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:16 PM
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The main reason for the balljoints, bumpsteer, bushings, is to get rid of the way the car steers itself through ruts in the pavement (and when hitting puddles in the rain...). More of a safety thing than a performance thing. It's a miracle I didn't put the car in the wall driving 2 hours from charlotte to Clemson (1am POURING rain)
Had an alignment lately? Know the specs?


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post #11 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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I had it aligned when I installed the c/c plates but I dont know the specs. I know my technique could be better, but I had the club hotshoe hop in and he noticed it plowing as well.

I don't have swaybars yet - was looking for some opinions on which ones to get. I was looking at the eibachs. I don't have any problems launching it (not enough power, heh) so I dont know why LCA's would be good. Swaybars are supposed to help with roll as well though, which my car has quite alot of.
Pics of roll:
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/i...aba/Autocross/
My awful driving (I need new seats, BAD)

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PI swap / Eibach Pro-kit / Tokico Blue's / Short throw / Flows
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post #12 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
Hey all

So I've done the PI swap on my mustang, and am at a bang-for-buck wall in the power department (bolt ons dont do much, power adder is just too much) so I want to work on my suspension.

There's a sports car club at our college that holds autocrosses every month that I will likely be attending more and more often. However, the guy who sets up the track drives a miata, and as a result the courses can get kind of technical. My car has kumho ecsta spt tires (by far the weakest link), eibach pro kit springs, tokico hp's, c/c plates and a strut tower brace. Needless to say, it plows like a john deer through tight corners.

So my question to all of you is, what is the best way to eliminate (or reduce) this craptastic understeer? Also, there's an unsettling amount of on-center slop in the steering wheel, and it darts about on the freeway when there are ruts in the road from bigrigs and such.

What would you guys recommend? This is my tentative list so far
* Eibach front/rear swaybars
* Steeda x2 balljoints
* Steeda bumpsteer kit
* Prothane rack bushings
* Custom subframe connectors

Thanks in advance
-Tyler
You need to start by dumping those crappy Tokico Blues. If you find the thread by Ciotti he just switched from those to Koni Sports and gets into detail about just how different the car is, including being less sloppy (which is a lack of rebound control, and the tramlining can also be weak shock damping).

As far as understeer... a good alignment, and better roll control to keep that screwed up camber curve under better control help a ton..... so of that list the Eibach bars would be top of it--after the shocks.

SFC's never a bad idea...

I have to strongly recommend the dampers and bars first and foremost. Shake them down, and see where you stand from there.

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post #13 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 04:42 PM
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The car pictured had a torque arm and panhard bar rear suspension but it still had 700-850lb/in front springs (FRPP Cobra 'R') and H&R Torque Arm springs in the back. The front bar was 1-1/8" and the rear was 7/8". The tires were fairly fresh 245/45/17 Kumho 712s. I ran with as much negative camber as the c/c plates give me plus SN95 front arms w/X2 ball joints and the car still exhibited understeer.

I made several changes (upped the front spring rate for one) and it's much better.

Last edited by Moving Target; 07-17-2009 at 04:47 PM.
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post #14 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Hmm.. Well keep the advice coming guys I appreciate it. Meanwhile, I have some decisions to make about where I want to go with my car..

I have a '95 Miata at home as well... I could spend a lot of money making it as fast as the mustang, or the same amount of money making the mustang handle as well as the miata. Decisions decisions...

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post #15 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 05:21 PM
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Just be careful how much spring you run because on our cars you need as much as you can get in order to keep the camber in check BUT the higher you go, the less pleasant it will be on the street. You will have to compromise one way or the other. Pleasant on the street, lots of roll on the "track" great on the track harsh on the street.

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post #16 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Humjaba View Post
Hmm.. Well keep the advice coming guys I appreciate it. Meanwhile, I have some decisions to make about where I want to go with my car..

I have a '95 Miata at home as well... I could spend a lot of money making it as fast as the mustang, or the same amount of money making the mustang handle as well as the miata. Decisions decisions...
Well if you already have a Miata at home then you've already tackled the difficult part. Actually obtaining one and getting over the "softer side" of the car is probably the most difficult part of Miata ownership. You should probably just stick to having that as your handling car and try to make the Mustang faster in a straight line and street cruiser, but that is just my opinion.

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post #17 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah.. So the list looks like this:
Steeda Bumpsteer Kit 135 https://forums.corral.net/forums/priv...m&pmid=4676185
Steeda X2 Balljoints 105 https://forums.corral.net/forums/priv...m&pmid=4676185
Steeda Full-length Subframes 149 https://forums.corral.net/forums/priv...m&pmid=4676185
Eibach Swaybars 300 http://www.americanmuscle.com/eibach...4-mustang.html
Prothane Rack Bushings 11.99 http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...0%201&comp=LRS
Custom subframe connectors 125

Does this look like it will at least minimize the tramlining (thanks for giving that a name for me, didnt really know what it was called)?

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PI swap / Eibach Pro-kit / Tokico Blue's / Short throw / Flows
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post #18 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 06:09 PM
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This might be easier than just throwing your wallet at the problem. You could get all those parts and still have trammeling issues.

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post #19 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 06:13 PM
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You might want to look into a GG lock that will help keep you planted in the seat until you step up to a harness

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post #20 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Well, i'd like the swaybars to help out with the rolling problem - stiffer springs arent the answer because I like my ride the way it is. I want subframes because my car is creak/rattle free and I'd like it to stay that way. The rest of the #### is to try and fix tramlining - what would you suggest? It's certainly not a driver problem. I'm not talking a little bit, or where it jerks the wheel out of my hand - the wheel stays still and the car goes back and forth. Its as if the wheels arent even connected to the steering wheel. This is a safety issue that needs to be addressed.

I suppose I should have put the issue more on this than the plowing in my initial post... I guess thats kind of a mustang characteristic that wont go away without something extreme like SLA's

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post #21 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 10:37 PM
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I had to replace the steering column in my car after it developed some bad slop at the tilt swivel. I suspect my using it as a dual purpose directional aid/driver restraint device while carrying out extreme direction changes (aka autox) hastened it's departure.



The symptoms were like you describe; I'd hold the wheel steady and the car would want to change lanes on it's own.

ps: it's called a CG lock.

http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html

No affiliation...

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post #22 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
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Also, there's an unsettling amount of on-center slop in the steering wheel
sounds like your steering rack is worn...my old '99 gt had that problem too..you could turn the steering wheel about 15 degrees each way from center and it wouldn't affect the wheels at all!
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post #23 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 12:52 AM
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Likely more negative camber is needed and quite probably too banzai with corner entry speed and/or not using the brake to get weight on the the front tires for better bite.

Technique is important too.
A lot of good info, such as this, flowing through here. Good call, BULLITT1992, on the CG lock. I almost missed the comment about seating/driving/bracing issue.

My first thoughts were, what tire pressures were you running and alignment settings? Sometimes, tire pressures may affect u/s. A small camber change, from -1.3 to -1.9, did wonders in the understeer department, on my Cobra.

Some of the information is based on years of suspension tech in this sport applied to this platform. While the suggestions may seem minor compared to your list, such as a good alignment, they are targeted to reduce/cure your biggest problem...understeer. There are many good vendors to choose from for your parts. IMHO, you may want to consider having real world tech vs salespeople to help you fix this possible scenario: You throw a mess of name brand parts at the car with high expectations, and the results are as bad or worse than before. Ask me how I know. Keep it simple, learn to drive faster, and stay on those tires until the suspension/chassis is fully sorted. None of this is new or ground breaking information. It's all been said here before, in one way, shape or form. Just my 2 cents.

Good luck and have fun with it,

Rob
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 03:06 AM
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ps: it's called a CG lock.
No affiliation...
fat finger

I have one works well

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post #25 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 06:24 PM
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...ps: it's called a CG lock.

http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html

No affiliation...
...I have one too, but you can't use them in the Fox's because of the 2-pass belt tongue design (at least CG-Lock says you can't use them).

It, of course, worked in my '99 GT which has the single-pass design and since I sold that car, I can't use it now in my '93 Cobra...
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post #26 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 07:09 PM
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I've never bothered with getting a CG Lock and instead used to pull the seat back a couple of notches, adjust the belt close to snug, give it 2-3 twists, buckle it and pull the seat forward. I had it so tight one time, I actually bruised my hips.

I haven't bothered doing it all this year but now that I mentioned it, maybe I should get back into the habit. It's not anywhere near as good as a 5pt (or Schroth 4pt -- Auto-X only and check if the club allows it's use) but it IS free and easy.

Last edited by Moving Target; 07-18-2009 at 07:34 PM.
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post #27 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 10:21 PM
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I've never bothered with getting a CG Lock and instead used to pull the seat back a couple of notches, adjust the belt close to snug, give it 2-3 twists, buckle it and pull the seat forward...but it IS free and easy.
Until I get seats, I'm using a similar method. Buckle up, pull it tight back to the shoulder guide, and loop the belt twice around the open "hook" of the guide. Now it is locked at the beltline and the shoulder and it stays at that same set run after run. Not very high tech or effective as a 4 or 5 point, but it gets the job done for now.....plus it is free and easy.

Rob
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