2.3L in a 94 SN95 - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 27 Old 07-13-2009, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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2.3L in a 94 SN95

I have posted the question to the SVO guys, but would like to hear any other perspectives on the ups and downs to this swap, would the weight difference on the front be reward enough?


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post #2 of 27 Old 07-14-2009, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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wow, not even an opinion? I thought everybody had an a-s hole. joking.


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post #3 of 27 Old 07-15-2009, 09:31 AM
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I have posted the question to the SVO guys, but would like to hear any other perspectives on the ups and downs to this swap, would the weight difference on the front be reward enough?
Probably not.

You weren't specific as to whether the 2.3 was a turbo intercooled motor. But if so, an aluminum headed 5.0 will weigh about the same and be a lot less hassle.

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post #4 of 27 Old 07-15-2009, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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thank you for the info, this is want I need. Yes it would be turbo, now what do think about longevity? what would last longer around a race track? I understand the stock 94 GT V8 isn't very friendly to much RPM for long times. It seems the stoutness of the 2.3t could be used here, but different heads would level the playing field? stock 5.0 weights 500lbs (researched that one, correct me if I'm wrong please) the 2.3t is 380lbs. I can have a 2.3t setup for 2,000. Seeing as how Grassroots Motorsports yearly challenge has shown what a $300 2.3t can do, 2,000 is fair. Can I put something together in a V8 that would be as cheap, as fast, as reliable?

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post #5 of 27 Old 07-15-2009, 10:35 PM
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I found a website that claimed the 2.3t with intercooler setup like it was in the svo weighs in at 450lbs...I'll try to find that link, but keep in mind, it *is* the internet, believe what you want
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post #6 of 27 Old 07-15-2009, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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450? getting that close would bring a quick conclusion.

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post #7 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 08:15 AM
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Also, vicbaby suggested an aluminum headed motor, not stock.
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post #8 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 08:37 AM
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http://blog.cardomain.com/2009/04/27...-merkur-xr4ti/

The author is speaking of the Merkur (sp?) here, but (if you believe him), the end of what he says is the most relevant:

"The 2.3 liter turbocharged, fuel injected engine uses an EEC-IV computer. The 4-cylinder engine was generally rated at 145 hp (108 kW) when mated with an automatic transmission, and 175 hp when matched with the 5-speed manual transmission. This engine weighs a surprising 450 lb in full (turbo) trim. This engine is basically the same as that found in the SVO Mustang and the Thunderbird Turbo Coupe of the time, though the SVO Mustang and Thunderbird Turbo Coupe differed by having an intercooler and better EEC-IV programming."

...so..this person seems to be claiming 450 pounds without the intercooler (if I'm reading that right).

Take this with a grain of salt....
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post #9 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 09:48 AM
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It's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't do it. 2.3ts aren't known for their reliabilty around the road course. There is an AI racer on http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=16087
That did an AI car build using the 2.3t. He hasn't had the best of luck yet.

I have a 306 in my Ai car and recently rallycrossed an Xr4ti and I can say it's a totally different animal to drive. The 2.3 has decent torque but it's not immediate like with the sbf. My driving style would have to change to run a 2.3 to its potential.

I think his final post is the most valuable to you...

I appreciate everyone's interest in the car. It does constantly seem to provoke "rules" discussions. Why don't we just let the thread die. I'll bring it back up when the car actually runs worth a damn, has been presented to Peder and Co. for tech and have something to report.

By the way its "mythical" because a turbo 2.3 weighs more than a properly kitted out 302. My little joke.

Thanks again for the encouragement, if you want to go racing, don't try this (turbo 2.3) at home.

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post #10 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 10:01 AM
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Just read that thread on nasaforums....in case you haven't gotten to the last page yet, he says:

"By the way its "mythical" because a turbo 2.3 weighs more than a properly kitted out 302. My little joke."

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post #11 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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I searched and searched and, couldn't find that info. Thank you very much. Since this was a save money idea also, it looks like that's defunct too. It was worth a try though. Now time to start a new thread, about strong V8's who last the longest on track conditions. Thanks for your help.

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post #12 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 03:21 PM
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An LSx motor will give you the best of three worlds. light, powerful, and cheap.
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post #13 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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LSx, meaning GM right? for some reason that never crossed my mind. I'm megasquirting what ever I decide to use, and they have t5's already. Now I need info on some strong, under 500lbs engines.

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post #14 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 09:50 PM
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GM makes stand alone engine harness for the Gen IV motors that allow you to stick them in just about anything. Or you can stay distributer-less with a carb. Just about anything you can imagine has been done with these motors. I'd even venture to say the mustang is the most popular swap for the LSx motor right now. After you add up what it cost to do the same with most other engine platform, the LSx comes out ahead. How many other all aluminum V8's are out there that will make 500 hp with a simple cam change, are physically small enough to suff into anything rwd, and cost under 4-5 grand?
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post #15 of 27 Old 07-16-2009, 10:24 PM
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This one always gets me. "A T2.3L will weigh as much as a 302."

That only happens in a stock production install. A 2.3L with AC, Alt, PS, and any other items bolted to the engine. I played with a T2.3L and 302's and the T2.3L I installed only had an Alt. It weighed quite a bit less then a V8. And now you can get an Aluminum head for the 2.3 that is a direct replacement for the stock head so the 2.3L wins. Unless you go and get an aluminum block for the V8.

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post #16 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 07:55 PM
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yeah my car is getting an LSx

I sold my mega squirt #### all my sbf turbo stuff and am goin this route now. Oh yeah and I am carbing it. ultimate simplicity carbed lsx super light tons of power.


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post #17 of 27 Old 07-17-2009, 11:42 PM
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Just to play devil's advocate, I'd have to ask why switch to an LSx at this point? They aren't much lighter (like 20lbs lighter than a 5.0L with aluminum heads- if what I've read is correct) and if you stroke a 5.0L to 347 they have the same displacement (unless you get a 6.0L- but I bet that's much more expensive).

With 6 bolt mains they can take more abuse, but I hear they aren't good past 500WHP which is only about 10% more than a 5.0L is supposed to be good to. You have to go through all the expense of changing mounting locations for your engine mounts, mess with getting a wiring harness, deal with mounting up a trans (not sure what the bolt patterns are there), buying a new starter, custom length d-shaft, etc. I'd be willing to bet obtaining the motor, rebuilding it and all the extras that go into a swap make the cost similar to building a stroked 5.0L with similar power but with more work.

True they are good motors, no taking that away, just seems like a lot of hastle for a little extra gain. I'm willing to bet most of the guys out there doing the swaps are drag racers who got the motor for a song and stuffed it in a cheap rolling chassis. I won't say I've been to every track event and road race around but I've never seen that swap at a track day or NASA event. Not that it wouldn't make a good car, just always seemed wrong to stuff another make engine into a car (unless the car is an import- the RX7, 240 swaps are kinda cool since those cars are so light).

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post #18 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 01:36 PM
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you use 4.6 motor mounts anda 4.6 K member with a fox. LS1s are 10 times better engine than small block fords. Stock heads and a cam you can make 400 rwhp. there is no way $ for $ you can make a sbf have more power. There are guys making 700hp on stock ls1 bottom ends. the aluminum ls1 block can handle 1000 HP


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post #19 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 01:41 PM
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the ls1 with all accessorys oil etc weighs 395 pounds so thats what 100 pounds lighter than a stock 5.0? that is a #### load of weight off the nose of a car with ####y balance. As for the wiring harness thats super simple so many company's make plug and play setups or MSD makes a ignition setup so you can run a carb. as for a trans I am putting my ford TKO in it going to use a quick time bell housing and use the aluminum drive shaft I already have for it. as for headers you can get expensive kooks headers or do what I am doing mac 351 swap headers cut the flanges off and weld new flanges on.


as for seeing none at nasa events idk ive only seen a hand full of lsx mustangs on the internet never any in person. Most people with mustangs are "purists" and dont want to put a "chevy" motor in their car


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post #20 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 06:16 PM
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I've seen guys with stock bottom end 5.0s making tons of power too, but that doesn't mean it's going to last in a high rpm for 20 minutes at a time environment, in fact two friends of mine have blown new LS motors in their cars at the track, one with stock power, the other with about 450 to the wheels. I've read the LS1 weighs 430 lbs w/gear, I've never weighed them so I can easily be wrong since I'm quoting internet bozos. If taking 50 lbs off of the 302 w/heads makes them 450lbs, you'd be at either a 20lb or 55lb difference. I guess depending on who's right, there's a medium or small difference.

As I said, everything is available but it all adds up, wiring, driveshaft, motor mounts (I didn't know you could just use 4.6L mounts- does that put the trans in the right place for the shifter, I wonder), accessories, flywheel, balancer, etc.

Yes, the LS1 can make 400hp with a cam and other bolt ons, you can make 400 hp out of a 302 with heads, cam and other bolt ons so price difference is still close.

I won't argue the LS series motor is hard to beat, I'm just argueing the value propostion in stuffing it in a Mustang unless you have one laying around.
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post #21 of 27 Old 07-18-2009, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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I'm looking for a bullet proof setup for 350hp. Something that I can drive to and from the event. I just don't see my 16x,xxx mile 5.0L doing it. Or are there things that I can add too it? I guess my main thing is the block being stronger. loosing weight off the front end through the engine looks a bit daunting with budget in my vocabulary.

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post #22 of 27 Old 07-20-2009, 12:35 PM
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Tracking a 350 hp car will never be bullet proof. A vette is as close as you'll get. At some point you'll have to decide what you want to do, continue on with lower power levels or get a trailer. I know "others have gotten away without one", but eventually you will be driving so fahking hard at track days stuff will continuously need attention on the car...I got too nervous about how I was getting home and got a truck/trailer. Now I am much more calm when I see puddles un the car or hear nasty noises on track. It acutally made me even faster becuase I could afford the risk of driving 9/10ths. Before I kept it to about 6/10ths.

I'd say your best bet is to build a simple carb'd 351 or older (pre '74) 302.

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post #23 of 27 Old 07-20-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
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I've seen guys with stock bottom end 5.0s making tons of power too, but that doesn't mean it's going to last in a high rpm for 20 minutes at a time environment, in fact two friends of mine have blown new LS motors in their cars at the track, one with stock power, the other with about 450 to the wheels. I've read the LS1 weighs 430 lbs w/gear, I've never weighed them so I can easily be wrong since I'm quoting internet bozos. If taking 50 lbs off of the 302 w/heads makes them 450lbs, you'd be at either a 20lb or 55lb difference. I guess depending on who's right, there's a medium or small difference.

As I said, everything is available but it all adds up, wiring, driveshaft, motor mounts (I didn't know you could just use 4.6L mounts- does that put the trans in the right place for the shifter, I wonder), accessories, flywheel, balancer, etc.

Yes, the LS1 can make 400hp with a cam and other bolt ons, you can make 400 hp out of a 302 with heads, cam and other bolt ons so price difference is still close.

I won't argue the LS series motor is hard to beat, I'm just argueing the value propostion in stuffing it in a Mustang unless you have one laying around.
Are you hitting up BFR on 8/8-8/9 with Nasa? My first time out there was in June and I loved it. It's amazing what kind of speed you can carry on that little track.
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-20-2009, 06:36 PM
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Are you hitting up BFR on 8/8-8/9 with Nasa? My first time out there was in June and I loved it. It's amazing what kind of speed you can carry on that little track.
I love BFR (other than the vast number of trees and the swamp off turn 7), if you were there in June you may have seen the Z06 that hit the CTS-V in the Thunder group and went swimming in that swamp.

Not sure I'm gonna have the car ready to go then, and if I do, I am kinda obligated to another (non-car related) event, but if money's not tight, I can get out of that.

I have every intention of making the Midwestern Council event there the next Saturday though and since it's less than half the price, it may be the better venue to try to test out the new stuff I have on the car in a track environment. I'd hate to pay NASA fees only to find out I'm having a problem I can't fix at the track.
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post #25 of 27 Old 07-26-2009, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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So 350hp is still a stretch. Well if it doesn't really matter too much, than I'm looking for a pre '74 302. Does the mountaineer alum. block have a decent survivability rate?

Or would I be better off putting together a bolt on's/mega squirted stock 5.0, and just replace it with a junk 5.0 everytime it blows? Might as well get a disposable setup. Everything on the car is disposable.

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post #26 of 27 Old 07-26-2009, 11:12 PM
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An FRPP or Dart block is pretty solid and will last a long, long time. If I was building my engine again, it would be on an FRPP Boss block.
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post #27 of 27 Old 07-26-2009, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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Although I would love to use one, I couldn't afford one currently.

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