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post #1 of 33 Old 06-17-2009, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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rear suspension

ok guys i have a few questions concerning the rear suspension on my 95... dont bash me as i am very new at this but am serious about doing some autox racing.... keep in mind i am on a very tight budget (21 year old college student married with a child)...

i guess ill start with getting some opinions on pretty much converting my rear suspension to an 05+ style setup... basically getting rid of the 2 upper arms and putting 1 in the center then adding a panhard bar to control side-side movement... please keep in mind i am on a very strict budget and simply cannot afford a steeda or mm rear setup... i have the accessibility to do this properly (tools, knowledge, etc) just wondering if some of you guys that have experience in auto-x would think this would be a good idea... i have heard done a lot of research on the factory setup and have come up with a ton of negative stuff... i currently have granatelli upper and lower arms and would be keeping the lowers are they are but just fabbing the mounts, and a fully adjustable upper arm...

next... will an adjustable sway bar fit/clear a panhard bar setup?

i am wanting to build up my rear suspension but as cheap as i can(dosent everybody) so i have been thinking really hard and have sketched up some ideas on how to do this and i feel it will dramatically help my car... like i said i have all the tools, etc necessary to fab anything i want/need so that will not be an issue just trying to come up with a better rear suspension then i already have...

any thoughts/ideas are greatly appreciated...

oh and the front suspension is pretty much covered just waiting on some cash to come in so i can order parts....

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post #2 of 33 Old 06-17-2009, 07:13 PM
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Just search about 5 pages in this forum there is plenty to see.

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post #3 of 33 Old 06-17-2009, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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yea i am kinda new to corral... i have done a lot of buying and selling on here but never really got into the forums and dang there is a lot of info and a lot of guys that know their stuff on here... will definately be spending more time on here... the wheel in my head is going a million miles an hour right now... lol
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post #4 of 33 Old 06-17-2009, 08:50 PM
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How would you convert to one upper?

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post #5 of 33 Old 06-17-2009, 10:20 PM
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With an EVM Tri-Link, but they're out of business, and it was just as expensive as the rest, and there isn't really any way to adapt an 05 rear to a 95 without a bunch of fabrication anyway.
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post #6 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 04:57 AM Thread Starter
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i wouldnt use a newer rear id use mine just add a mounting point to the top center... im not at all concerned with the extensive fab work im just wondering about the geometry of a 3 link with panhard rod... good design????
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post #7 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 08:05 AM
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I run the EvM Tri-Link with a MM PHB.
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post #8 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 09:29 AM
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3-link with a PHB works, you'll get arguments pointing to that or a Torque Arm/PHB, or the Steeda 5-link.

Biggest problem with the single upper arm, is coming up with the space to package it. EVM did it, but like posted they're out of business. If you aren't afraid to cut up the floor pan and extend that mount farther forward, you'll have much better luck.

I saw a website for a guy who did exactly what you want, all home-made, but I can't recall the site!

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post #9 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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cool... im looking for something that is well balanced as this is my only car (cept for my bike) and i think it will be a tremendious improvement on the cheap save for a bunch of manuel labor which i have no problem with... i have access to a lift so that will help out a lot...

i was thinking something similar to how they set up that challenger on muscle car for dana white... dono if anyone caught that episode...
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post #10 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white93pony71 View Post
i guess ill start with getting some opinions on pretty much converting my rear suspension to an 05+ style setup... basically getting rid of the 2 upper arms and putting 1 in the center then adding a panhard bar to control side-side movement...
Like you, I've been thinking about this too. Unfortunately, I don't have the fab skills or tools, so this will be an expensive project to farm out for me. FWIW this is what I've come up with so far. Use the center section of the later 05+ 8.8 with integrated 3-link mount. Mod the existing tubes for Fox use or take Fox length tubes and mod to fit the larger opening in the later center section (esthetics are important to me). Look at the 05+ stock chassis side mount and adapt it to the fox (here I was thinking along the lines of the S-box concept with floor bracing to spread the load). Use an after market link such as the MMR or Steeda pieces to connect the two. Anyway, this is where I'm going to start. I've also considered speaking with Moser, et al for the axle mods. I like the compact packaging of the 3-link, as well as the weight advantage over a T/A. Seems to work pretty well on the s197 cars too. Anyway, good luck and keep us apprised of your project.

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post #11 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 01:46 PM
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The 3-link, the torque arm and Steeda's 5-link can all be made to work very, very well. So, that being said...

If it were me, and I were making it myself, AND if this were my first suspension fabrication:
  1. I'd be very, VERY careful of what I was doing -- a broken suspension is No Fun, especially of it happens to break at speed on the track or worse, on the freeway!
  2. I'd keep things VERY simple. Panhard first -- make it stronger than you think it needs to be. ALL the cornering loads crom the rear tires feed through it into the chassis.
  3. Go for a Torque arm. They're simpler to make (only one articulated joint) and fabricating the chassis mount is easier. (And you can probably get drudis to point you to his EXTENSIVE collection of photos from his Torque Arm setup to steal ideas from.)

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post #12 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gt40mkII View Post
The 3-link, the torque arm and Steeda's 5-link can all be made to work very, very well. So, that being said...

If it were me, and I were making it myself, AND if this were my first suspension fabrication:
  1. I'd be very, VERY careful of what I was doing -- a broken suspension is No Fun, especially of it happens to break at speed on the track or worse, on the freeway!
  2. I'd keep things VERY simple. Panhard first -- make it stronger than you think it needs to be. ALL the cornering loads crom the rear tires feed through it into the chassis.
  3. Go for a Torque arm. They're simpler to make (only one articulated joint) and fabricating the chassis mount is easier. (And you can probably get drudis to point you to his EXTENSIVE collection of photos from his Torque Arm setup to steal ideas from.)
i am on the fence about buying a panhard kit or building my own... i have seen many built and they seem pretty straight forward... but the 3 link i dont see being a problem.... i have also though about making the top link solid and getting adjustable lowers.... figure it will be easier as i am gonna be short on room anyways up top.... dono yet need to find someone with a drive on lift so i can get under it to see how much room and such i have to work with when the car is at ride height... i will for sure take my time and make sure it is correct... i have a good friend that does fab work for a living so he will be doing all the welding and such and helping with setting it up as he has built many of custom rat rods and low rider type vehicles and has a ton of knowledge of how to make it strong yet light....

thanks for the input guys...
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post #13 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by white93pony71 View Post
but the 3 link i dont see being a problem...
The Panhard is much easier to fabricate than the 3-link setup, IMHO.

The hard part about the 3-link is the chassis attachment point. It has to tie into some fairly strong structure to take the loads imposed by the rear tires -- at least as much as the LCA's, if not more. Where will you tie it in? There's not much in that area except for the stamped floor of the tub. EVM's bracket was designed to spread out the load over a wide area of that floor, and did a fairly good job of it, but the engineering behind it wasn't all that easy.

Many racers who do their own 3-link simply run the 3rd link through the floor and tie it into the cage. The advantage there (other than simplicity,) is the link can be much longer.

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post #14 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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was thinking about adding a 1/4 thick sheet of steel not sure exactly on size probably the biggest i can get to fit so it will help spread out the load through the floor pan there, then add numerous 9/16 or so holes some will go through the floor so i can add big bolts with washers and the others will basically be big tack welds, then completely weld the edges of the plate up too...
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post #15 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by white93pony71 View Post
was thinking about adding a 1/4 thick sheet of steel not sure exactly on size probably the biggest i can get to fit so it will help spread out the load through the floor pan there, then add numerous 9/16 or so holes some will go through the floor so i can add big bolts with washers and the others will basically be big tack welds, then completely weld the edges of the plate up too...
The EvM tri-link is/was a very compact package and seems to work very well. Using that as a basis for working this out, a short arm can be used just like in the s197. Look at how Wild Rides designed their S-Box replacement for the stock upper 4-link arms. Basically, they remove the stamped steel upper component, and replace it with a heavy-duty fabricated piece that is both bolted and welded in. Seems to me, a similar design could be used to fabricate the upper 3-link mount especially if the stock s197 piece is used as the basis for establishing the connection point. I'm running the PM3L set-up right now using a fabricated arm designed by a member on this site. If the stock 4-link upper box can take the abuse, I'm certain a reinforced 3-link with a properly thought-out upper mount will as well. By the way, I'd use the upper mount for adjusting pinion angle rather than the lowers (my PM3L is adjustible) - for one, there is only one arm involved and for another seems easier from a fabrication stand point since there are a number of s197 after market items already out there.
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post #16 of 33 Old 06-18-2009, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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what is this evm tri link? any links to a kit for reference?
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post #17 of 33 Old 06-19-2009, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Stang Man View Post
3-link with a PHB works, you'll get arguments pointing to that or a Torque Arm/PHB, or the Steeda 5-link.

Biggest problem with the single upper arm, is coming up with the space to package it. EVM did it, but like posted they're out of business. If you aren't afraid to cut up the floor pan and extend that mount farther forward, you'll have much better luck.

I saw a website for a guy who did exactly what you want, all home-made, but I can't recall the site!
I think i know the one. http://www.dougnsteph.net/mustang/ if you're out there, any updates??


And there is another good one I found. The rear end mount for this one seems to make a lot of sense to me. The inside mount is attached to the cage, so not practical for anything but race. http://www.sbassen.com/rob.php?p=03-25

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post #18 of 33 Old 06-19-2009, 10:15 AM
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BTW, this guy http://www.dougnsteph.net/mustang/ has a very clean install of through the floor subframe connectors if anyone's interested.

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-86 coupe project sitting in my garage on a 5 lug conversion.. and the motor is in.. and it runs
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post #19 of 33 Old 06-19-2009, 12:33 PM
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what is this evm tri link? any links to a kit for reference?
As noted above, Evolution Motorsports has discontinued operations; thus, there are no pics of new products available from them. However, a guy on C-C.com wrote-up a great EvM tri-link install on his 96 cobra complete with pics. I'm sure you will get more than a good idea from that discussion. Go here: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums...t=EvM+tri-link

There is also a good write-up on a homemade 3 link here: http://members.shaw.ca/pekpress/3Lin...sandstuff.html

Keep us apprised.
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post #20 of 33 Old 06-19-2009, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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As noted above, Evolution Motorsports has discontinued operations; thus, there are no pics of new products available from them. However, a guy on C-C.com wrote-up a great EvM tri-link install on his 96 cobra complete with pics. I'm sure you will get more than a good idea from that discussion. Go here: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums...t=EvM+tri-link

There is also a good write-up on a homemade 3 link here: http://members.shaw.ca/pekpress/3Lin...sandstuff.html

Keep us apprised.
awsome thanks... im hoping to have this done by the end of the summer... right now just trying to make sure i have all my bases covered as this will be a complete custom setup... want to make sure i dont miss anything...

thanks for the responses guys... keep em coming
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post #21 of 33 Old 06-19-2009, 02:49 PM
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I think i know the one. http://www.dougnsteph.net/mustang/ if you're out there, any updates??


And there is another good one I found. The rear end mount for this one seems to make a lot of sense to me. The inside mount is attached to the cage, so not practical for anything but race. http://www.sbassen.com/rob.php?p=03-25
Those aren't the same ones but DAMN that first setup looky pretty snazzy!

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Suspension:MM: TA, PHB, Rear LCA's, C/C Plates, H&R Race Springs, Bilstein HD's, SFC's, Moser 28 splines, 3.73's, Cobra brakes,10th Anniv. Cobra wheels
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post #22 of 33 Old 06-19-2009, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Those aren't the same ones but DAMN that first setup looky pretty snazzy!
gonna have to agree... i was thinking about attaching to the rear housing the same way but liking the ideas used for the body.... might have to do that....
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post #23 of 33 Old 06-23-2009, 10:12 AM
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From everything I have been reading, the trick for fabricating a 3 link is getting the correct anti-squat dialed in within the tight packaging constraints of the Mustang. Getting the correct antisquat seems to take some experimentation and adjustability which is a problem again given the area limitations. The torque arm option seems to be a "fab it up and bolt it on" solution.

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-86 coupe project sitting in my garage on a 5 lug conversion.. and the motor is in.. and it runs
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post #24 of 33 Old 06-23-2009, 10:31 AM
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From everything I have been reading, the trick for fabricating a 3 link is getting the correct anti-squat dialed in within the tight packaging constraints of the Mustang. Getting the correct antisquat seems to take some experimentation and adjustability which is a problem again given the area limitations. The torque arm option seems to be a "fab it up and bolt it on" solution.
Very true. I'd have to review the geometry, but if memory serves, a typical TA setup has too much anti-squat, which can lead to severe brake hop. Most TA guys who un into this problem dial out some rear brake, or tune it out using the rear dampers. I dialed out some rear brake.

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post #25 of 33 Old 03-29-2010, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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bump for an awsome post!!!

i haven't began this swap yet. i just ordered a mm panhard bar and the wife picked me up some front bilstein struts for 60 bucks!!! gonna put this stuff on and try a few things out. i ended up finnishing school and we decided to move to texas, so funds and time have been limited...
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-29-2010, 11:04 PM
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In that case, you'll want to familiarize yourself with the Texas tracks:
  • Eagle's Canyon
  • Texas Motor Speedway
  • Motorsport Ranch, Cresson
  • Motorsport Ranch, Houston
  • Harris Hill Road
  • Driveway Austin
  • Texas World Speedway

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post #27 of 33 Old 04-30-2010, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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In that case, you'll want to familiarize yourself with the Texas tracks:
  • Eagle's Canyon
  • Texas Motor Speedway
  • Motorsport Ranch, Cresson
  • Motorsport Ranch, Houston
  • Harris Hill Road
  • Driveway Austin
  • Texas World Speedway
oh yea i will for sure... gonna try to hit up a few of them this summer. i would really like to go to a couple auto-x events also... i just got my panhard installed, new tires all around, waiting for my cc plates to arrive monday then im putting a new set of tie rod ends on, the cc plates and getting an alignment... for now that will be all till at least the first of june as we are in the process of buying a house, so car funds at at a stand still for now... im looking for a set of good upper control arms to replace my hpms...
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post #28 of 33 Old 04-30-2010, 11:59 PM
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The best auto-x site in Texas right now is arguably in College Station (where TWS is located) located near the campus of Texas A&M University on an old military runway complex (we've hosted Pro Solos there in the past, as well as 1mile+ long auto-xes). The Texas A&M Sports Car Club hosts auto-xes about once per month, even during the summer. In fact, we host practices before nationals with courses set up or designed by the likes of Andy Hollis and Roger Johnson. tamscc.org is the website for our board.

Casey
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post #29 of 33 Old 05-01-2010, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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ill be looking for somewhere near the dfw area... i am currently in mckinney, so i cant really afford to drive all the way to college station... sounds cool though.... if i remember eagles canyon is just west of ft worth...
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post #30 of 33 Old 05-02-2010, 10:42 AM
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ill be looking for somewhere near the dfw area... i am currently in mckinney, so i cant really afford to drive all the way to college station... sounds cool though.... if i remember eagles canyon is just west of ft worth...
Nope -- Eagle's Canyon is north of Denton in Slidel. Motorsports Ranch Cresson is south-southwest of Ft. Worth in -- Cresson.

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post #31 of 33 Old 05-02-2010, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Nope -- Eagle's Canyon is north of Denton in Slidel. Motorsports Ranch Cresson is south-southwest of Ft. Worth in -- Cresson.
ahhh gotcha... i checked out their site, and $150 to run!!! thats crazy... im sure thats prolly the norm, but i just wanna go make a few laps and have a good time...

anyone have any info about auto-x in the dallas area??? ive run some searches, but have not found anything yet...
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post #32 of 33 Old 05-02-2010, 04:45 PM
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ahhh gotcha... i checked out their site, and $150 to run!!! thats crazy... im sure thats prolly the norm, but i just wanna go make a few laps and have a good time...

anyone have any info about auto-x in the dallas area??? ive run some searches, but have not found anything yet...
All I know of is the SCCA.

The cheapest way to get onto a real road course is going to be an HPDE-type event. These generally cost $200 or so for a one-day event or $350 for two days. That gets you 5 20-minute track sessions per day, plus classroom training and your own instructor.

Some organizations will let you work for your tuition. You end up working a corner flag station for a day in exchange for a day's instruction. I did this for years.

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post #33 of 33 Old 05-02-2010, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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All I know of is the SCCA.

The cheapest way to get onto a real road course is going to be an HPDE-type event. These generally cost $200 or so for a one-day event or $350 for two days. That gets you 5 20-minute track sessions per day, plus classroom training and your own instructor.

Some organizations will let you work for your tuition. You end up working a corner flag station for a day in exchange for a day's instruction. I did this for years.
ok awsome!!! thanks for the info... i just picked up a set of cobra front brakes, traded a set of 01 gt brakes and some cash for them... has dimpled and slotted rotors and red ebc pads... now id like to get a brake cooling system and i think that i should be set when it comes to brakes, oh and a prop valve for the rear... i have read about modifying the factory valve, so im gonna look into it...

thanks again!!!
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