Any 5.0L Turbo Setup guys road racing? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 06-13-2009, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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Any 5.0L Turbo Setup guys road racing?

Hey guys, contemplating a turbo setup using a GT40P motor. My car has the full MM deal but that's mostly background information. I'm more interested in head gasket choice, tune, reliability,what you've learned, what you would do again, what you would never do again, etc that kind of things. It would be a low mile Explorer motor, GT40P heads, GT40 intake, T56 trans, Hellion kit with about 9-11psi (425-450rwhp). Any feedback I would love to hear!


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post #2 of 47 Old 06-13-2009, 03:09 PM
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I think Jerami has infected you


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post #3 of 47 Old 06-13-2009, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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LOL I haven't talked to Jerami in a while... last time I did he was planning a Kenne Bell on a 331 Dart block. Anyhow, 99% of my car's time is spent on the street, but I'm curious how the added heat generated by the turbo would do in an open track situation.

Btw - got my T56/ Centerforce/ Fidanza/ MM cable in, man is this thing cool! Can't believe I waited this long to replace my grinding 1st and 2nd T5 and worn out Spec setup. Holy cow what a difference.

Also got those Hawk pads you sent me still sitting on the shelf lol. The car is taking longer than I thought to get "track ready" but it'll get there eventually...

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post #4 of 47 Old 06-13-2009, 08:08 PM
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You could build a dart based n/a engine with the power you're looking for with a lot less headaches. The turbo car will be harder to drive and the added weight on the front of the car will not help the poor weight distribution we start with. I can tell you from experience that maintaining a reliable serious track machine with a simple n/a motor requires quite a bit of time, money and patience. The only turbo road race mustangs that I know of are in AIX and have big dollars and/or sponsorship invested in their cars. I wouldn't do it, but if you gotta have it go for it and good luck.

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post #5 of 47 Old 06-13-2009, 08:19 PM
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lol just build a dart based na motor.


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post #6 of 47 Old 06-14-2009, 08:08 PM
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Forced induction in a road race environment is almost always more difficult (and expensive) compared to a naturally-aspirated motor with the same power.

You have more complexity in the motor, which means more things to break or go wrong. The increased complexity also translates to a more difficult tune to maintain, as well.

But the real killer is heat. Regardless of how you do it, compressing air heats it up, increasing the heat load on the motor. Yes, it can be dealt with, which adds further expense and complexity.

OEMs seem to have dealt with this fairly well (I think building a powerful turbo or supercharged engine that has to meet warranty requirements may have something to do with it.) But going it on your own is an expensive and difficult proposition.

When it comes to building an amateur track car or race car, simpler is better, unless you have cubic dollars. I have seen very few successful non-OEM forced-induction cars at the track.

Darius, what do you think? It's not a turbo, but you have been running a supercharger for some time now.

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post #7 of 47 Old 06-14-2009, 08:48 PM
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Darius, what do you think? It's not a turbo, but you have been running a supercharger for some time now.
I woukld think an s-charger would be easier to drive than a t-charger. One thing that will no doubt effect both types of unnatural aspirations is heat soak on the road course. Halfway through your 30 minute session you could be 45+ horsepower down from when you started the race. I would think an intercooler would be a good idea if you really plan on beating it hard.

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post #8 of 47 Old 06-14-2009, 11:34 PM
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Anyhow, 99% of my car's time is spent on the street
I bet his car will see more time at the drag strip than on the road course.

We have a friend with a 05 built motor putting down 620rwhp and he has 6 track days at willow with his car he hasnt really had any problems.


Has any one actualy had first hand turbo problems road racing on the track? or is it just a bunch of internet fan boy BS


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post #9 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 12:20 AM
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I open track my 04 cobra (470rwhp) at AAA speedway, willow springs and buttonwillow. Cooling is a problem with the 03/04 cobra which will be similar with turbo cars. The best cooling mod is huge hood vents. I run all year round. Some of the n/a mustangs have cooling issues in the summer heat. Most of these cars still have their a/c and full interiors. Below are pictures of my hood louvers and hood vents that i designed.







Comp Orange 04 cobra, agent 47 sla, 550rwhp. On street tires it does 11.81 at 120mph in the 1/4 mile before the whipple. With the whipple on 19psi it does 10.20's at 118.5 mph at the local 1000' track. No prep, no burnout, just like racing from a stop light, and short shifting into second. .
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post #10 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 12:41 AM
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Nice car I was at horse thief mile a month or 3 ago and you were doing streets with speed trials i think. was checking your car out when you came up to use the bathroom lol.



Ive heard a lot mroe 03/04 cobra owners saying stuff about heat soak due to the fact that the blower is mounted on top of the engine. I think that that would obviously have a lot more heat soak then a turbo or a centri blower.

btw those head vents are bad ass.



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post #11 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPSMat View Post
Has any one actualy had first hand turbo problems road racing on the track? or is it just a bunch of internet fan boy BS
No direct experiance other than spending a lot of time at the track instructing in a lot of different cars, many of which use forced induction.

Like I said, the OEM setups do pretty well, mostly because the OEMS put a lot of R&D into keeping these systems cool, and a relatively conservative tune. It's the home-brew and kit-based systems that seem to do worse. I think that's mostly because the owners don't put enough effort into a good cooling system, and/or a more agressive tune.

The tune does play a bigger part than most think. Street driving and drag racing allow folks to run a more agressive (i.e. leaner,) tune because they're not running the engine hard for extended periods. The occasional blast from stoplight to stoplight or down the dragt strip is nothing compared to keeping the engine at WOT for 20 minutes at a time (or longer.)

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post #12 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 12:31 PM
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If you look around, most people say to avoid any sort of boost because of the weight on the nose and heat issues, they say go n/a stroker.

But then you have these remote mount turbo setups that keep the weight off the nose and don't have the under hood heat issues. If you look in the turbo area here, or on several other sites, you'll find most people recommending against remote mount turbos because of loss of exhaust heat on the way back to the turbo, excessive lag, and oil routing issues to the remote turbos. Actually, you'll find quite a few people adamantly against them.

The only thing is, there are more and more people successfully open tracking Mustangs with the remote mount turbo setups.

That's kind of a bench-racer's summary of the whole thing.

I'd like to hear from some people who've actually run some of these setups first hand.

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post #13 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 01:53 PM
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Yeah thats just it I see the road racing front mount turbo thing the same as the remote mount thing. Yet vette guys run remote mounts all day make stupid power and have no lag. I remember there was a drift mustang that had a remote mount turbo cant find the video any more. But like I said I have a friend who road races his 05 and when he goes to willow and what not he has a "road race" tune that pulls more timing when it gets hot etc. He has a stock cooling system and he said heat has not been a problem at all for him. But we are talking a fox here. IDK if the aluminum block etc makes a difference. And how much weight is it really put your battery in the back remove ac get rid of smog pump aluminum heads I think the front of the car would still be lighter with a turbo than with all that and steel heads.


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post #14 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 02:02 PM
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I remember there was a drift mustang that had a remote mount turbo cant find the video any more.
https://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=755102

Also

https://forums.corral.net/forums/show....php?t=1130131

https://forums.corral.net/forums/show....php?t=1089498

http://blog.cardomain.com/2008/06/11/dave-martis-mus/

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post #15 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 02:11 PM
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thanks yeah that was the car.

Another thing I was thinking is some one wants to stretch the weight over the nose argument saying the inercooler is right over the nose blah blah blah take out the inner bumper support behind the bumper cover problem solved.


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post #16 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 03:48 PM
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As for my S-trim, been opentracking for 10+ years. Its "fine", just lose power after a few laps, and just deal with it. Safe tune and not blowing it up for maybe 15K track miles, its done okay.
Some day... [daydreaming] 331R block with intercooler to not lose any power...

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post #17 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 04:40 PM
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As for my S-trim, been opentracking for 10+ years. Its "fine", just lose power after a few laps, and just deal with it. Safe tune and not blowing it up for maybe 15K track miles, its done okay.
Some day... [daydreaming] 331R block with intercooler to not lose any power...
So Darius, do you think a NA motor would be cheaper and more reliable than a turbo or blower motor if you wanted to make 350HP? 450? 550? More?

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post #18 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 05:03 PM
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So Darius, do you think a NA motor would be cheaper and more reliable than a turbo or blower motor if you wanted to make 350HP? 450? 550? More?
I'm not Darius, but I'd say you're definitely better going NA up to 450. Beyond that, I think it may depend how streetable you want the motor.

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post #19 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 05:24 PM
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I'm not Darius, but I'd say you're definitely better going NA up to 450. Beyond that, I think it may depend how streetable you want the motor.
I agree. What I'm getting at is there is a point where it makes more sense to go with forced induction. I suspect these are largely defined by the displacement of the engine. If you have a small displacement engine, you'll hit "unstreetable" at a lower horsepower level with a NA motor and then you're best option to maintain streetability is to go with forced induction. With a bigger displacement, that HP number goes higher (450HP for a 302?)

If you take streetability out of the equation, those HP numbers go a LOT higher!

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post #20 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 07:25 PM
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Nice car I was at horse thief mile a month or 3 ago and you were doing streets with speed trials i think. was checking your car out when you came up to use the bathroom lol.

Ive heard a lot mroe 03/04 cobra owners saying stuff about heat soak due to the fact that the blower is mounted on top of the engine. I think that that would obviously have a lot more heat soak then a turbo or a centri blower.

btw those head vents are bad ass.
I actually came up to see some friends driving the red rx7. People who say "heat soak due to the fact that the blower is mounted on top of the engine" don't know what they are talking about. I have datalogged many times in the summer. The facts are, the lower the engine temps the lower the ait2 temps (compressed air temps). The hottest i have ever ran was 235 degrees in 107 degree weather at big willow (when playing with vettes and vipers).

Comp Orange 04 cobra, agent 47 sla, 550rwhp. On street tires it does 11.81 at 120mph in the 1/4 mile before the whipple. With the whipple on 19psi it does 10.20's at 118.5 mph at the local 1000' track. No prep, no burnout, just like racing from a stop light, and short shifting into second. .
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post #21 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 07:38 PM
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ah.. I was in a POS camaro I got just for that track day cause my mustang was far from ready


lol.



that's pretty informative ive always heard terminator guys talk about that never really put any thought into it but it does make sense.


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post #22 of 47 Old 06-15-2009, 11:24 PM
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ah.. I was in a POS camaro I got just for that track day cause my mustang was far from ready


lol.



that's pretty informative ive always heard terminator guys talk about that never really put any thought into it but it does make sense.
In your words it might be a pos but all that matters is that you had fun and could really push it and not worry about damaging it.

Comp Orange 04 cobra, agent 47 sla, 550rwhp. On street tires it does 11.81 at 120mph in the 1/4 mile before the whipple. With the whipple on 19psi it does 10.20's at 118.5 mph at the local 1000' track. No prep, no burnout, just like racing from a stop light, and short shifting into second. .
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post #23 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 12:32 AM
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ah.. I was in a POS camaro I got just for that track day cause my mustang was far from ready


lol.



that's pretty informative ive always heard terminator guys talk about that never really put any thought into it but it does make sense.
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post #24 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 08:42 AM
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So Darius, do you think a NA motor would be cheaper and more reliable than a turbo or blower motor if you wanted to make 350HP? 450? 550? More?

This is my OPINION...
350hp is fairly easy.

450hp is doable in 302 (331/347) but a bit radical NA.
450hp 302 supercharged is very easy.
450hp is not too difficult NA, especially if you go 351W based motor.

550hp in not all that easy NA. You start to get radical/expensive 351W.
550hp supercharged 302, has to be a quite warm 302 or a wee bit more boost than is manageable without intercooler for roadracing.

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post #25 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 09:28 AM
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The other thing not mentioned is the path followed. A lot of the purpose built cars are built with a specific end goal in mind, so everything is planned out logically. Then there's the rest of us who are simply playing with a car, small upgrade at a time, and end up wanting to turn it into a track toy. Prior upgrades may not have made sense for the track, but you have what you have and the money is sunk.

How viable is a rear mount turbo in a street driven HPDE car, as opposed to an underhood turbo?

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vicbaby this might help you out and possibly the OP if they are contemplating this as well.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/show...highlight=rear

Maybe it will help a little if at the very least giving you some contacts from that thread. GL!
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post #27 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 10:28 AM
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vicbaby this might help you out and possibly the OP if they are contemplating this as well.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/show...highlight=rear

Maybe it will help a little if at the very least giving you some contacts from that thread. GL!
Thanks, I've seen that thread. But that car isn't exactly much of a street car - remote intercooler, aftermarket fuel cell, etc. I was kind of hoping Irishlad would post, as his car was more akin to the direction most of us are taking our cars (at least before his latest rebuild), and his turbo setup looked a bit more realistic for a street car.

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post #28 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 10:47 AM
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Like he said in his second post in the thread the car is 99% street driven. He has a 11:1 afr 185s etc 347 already built in his garage but the hole turbo thing is my fault I am doing a turbo in my car so I put the idea in his head. The helion kit he wants to get would be coming with a intercooler.


I dont think the turbo is going to be a problem with an intercooler turbo blanket hot pipes wrapped etc yes its added heat more weight on the front but I think the added fun factor is going to be well worth it.

I think the main reason he posted this thread was to try and find more people who have actually done it. Like I said previously we have a friend who does it no problem he is 620rwhp with a really conservative tune and he has not had any overheating problems he has had the car at big willow 10+ times and 4 of those have been with the turbo.


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post #29 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 11:03 AM
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Yeah... my fault on the "not very streetable" post. I was hoping maybe someone in there did it with (or knew someone who did it with) having a street car and that the OP's car in that thread gave them an idea they followed up with. It was a long shot. Good luck with it man.
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post #30 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 02:28 PM
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you can always run meth injection for added cooling effect (and more power!)

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post #31 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 05:20 PM
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I would just build a 408 with aluminum heads and be done with it. You will have plenty of power and torque.
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post #32 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 06:17 PM
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I would just build a 408 with aluminum heads and be done with it. You will have plenty of power and torque.
Depends on what you mean by "plenty". I'm not a big fan of 351W's in a Mustang. They're nose-heavy enough as it is.

Personally, I'd like to see an aluminum-blocked 347. Lightweight and as many cubes as is practical in the little-windsor form-factor. Set it back as much as you can (1" without cutting up the firewall, usually.)

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post #33 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 10:54 PM
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Buy the CURRENT issue of GrassRoots Motorsports.
Paul Fessler
That issue just happened to show up in my mailbox this evening.

410w, rear mount single turbo, 610hp with under 7lbs boost. Motor made 1000hp on a chassis dyno. Article says the rear mount turbo was chosen to keep the weigh low and off the nose, heat out of the engine bay, and to keep the engine bay simple.

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ESP Build Thread: corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=916068
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post #34 of 47 Old 06-16-2009, 11:49 PM
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I would just build a 408 with aluminum heads and be done with it. You will have plenty of power and torque.
+1

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post #35 of 47 Old 06-17-2009, 12:48 AM
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So whats the weight difference between a 351W with aluminum heads and a 306 with a supercharger.
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