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post #1 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 03:38 AM Thread Starter
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cage + sub frame connectors

Any benefit to running both? Going to start on my cage in a week or so.. just trying to get some input. Basically wondering if SFC will help even with a well designed cage.



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post #2 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 05:34 AM
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I would think that regular under the car weld on's would help, but since you're, what reads as "custom cage", a set of through the floor subframes would give your cage a great foundation to build from.

I'm no expert in cage design, but the above seems to make sense(in my head).

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post #3 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah I was thinking threw floor sfc would be good.


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post #4 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GPSMat View Post
Yeah I was thinking threw floor sfc would be good.
If you run competitively or think you might, going through the floor will make the car illegal for many racing classes, including NASA's CMC. (That's what pushed me over the edge and permanently into AI.)

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post #5 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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I dont plan to now but I am building the cage so if I ever wanted to I could. 1 3/4 .120 DOM and nascar style door bars etc building it to nasa specs. The main thing I am wondering is if they are needed after a full cage. Ive done some cage stuff before but it was all off road racing stuff never anything like this.


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post #6 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 02:13 PM
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Frame connectors should be mandatory on all Mustangs no matter what. Except the 05+ cars.

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post #7 of 68 Old 06-11-2009, 02:49 PM
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I dont plan to now but I am building the cage so if I ever wanted to I could. 1 3/4 .120 DOM and nascar style door bars etc building it to nasa specs. The main thing I am wondering is if they are needed after a full cage. Ive done some cage stuff before but it was all off road racing stuff never anything like this.
In that case I'd opt for the cheaper bottom-mount subframe connectors, welded in. These are legal for CMC (pretty sure they are, but check the rules -- I haven't read them for a couple of years.) If you cut the floor for subframe connectors, the tub will NOT be legal for CMC.

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post #8 of 68 Old 06-24-2009, 03:13 PM
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post #9 of 68 Old 06-25-2009, 12:21 AM
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post #10 of 68 Old 06-25-2009, 12:52 AM
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Learn this. Instead of wasting bandwidth with an empty post, just click the "thread tools" drop down at the top of the page and click "subscribe".


I'll do what I want. Already knew about that little trick, but thanks for sharing.

By the way, thanks for wasting bandwith by not PMing me with that little tidbit.


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post #11 of 68 Old 06-25-2009, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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lol.


I have decided just to do the standard sub frame connectors. Going to start the cage in a few weeks currently doing one on my friends blazer.


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post #12 of 68 Old 06-25-2009, 11:44 AM
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lol.


I have decided just to do the standard sub frame connectors. Going to start the cage in a few weeks currently doing one on my friends blazer.
IMHO, once you get a cage in the car, the difference between through-the-floor subframe connectors and external connectors is a bit academic. they'll still contribute to the longitudinal stiffness of the car, but their benefit is somewhat duplicated by a good cage, so don't stress about it too much.

As far as the subframes making for a good "foundation" for a cage, I'm not buying it. Typical chassis pockup points for a good 6-point cage are the rocker boxes and floorpan in front, the rear seat bulkhead for the main hoop. and the rear shock towers in the rear (this is for a road-racing cage, not a drag cage.) No where to these pickup points come anywhere close to the subframes or the subframe connectors.

However, the conectors can make a good structure to tie into when welding in cross-members for seat mounting, Torque Arm front mounts, and driveshaft loops.

One secret Bruce Griggs and I talked about some years ago was using BOTH kinds of subframe connectors. Using two (in-floor and traditional,) forms a box-structure and has the same effective strength as a beam approx 6" wide. Very, VERY stiff. This is the setup I now run.

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post #13 of 68 Old 06-25-2009, 08:11 PM
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I'll do what I want. Already knew about that little trick, but thanks for sharing.

By the way, thanks for wasting bandwith by not PMing me with that little tidbit.
Perfect. Continue with your "Look at me... I'm stupid" posts.

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post #14 of 68 Old 07-03-2009, 02:52 AM
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[snip]
One secret Bruce Griggs and I talked about some years ago was using BOTH kinds of subframe connectors. Using two (in-floor and traditional,) forms a box-structure and has the same effective strength as a beam approx 6" wide. Very, VERY stiff. This is the setup I now run.
Interesting. Any pics of the setup?

I'd agree that once you have a proper custom cage, SFC's contribute much less to the overall picture, but still very much worth the effort. If they're allowed, I'd do them. Great way to add a some protection under the driver should the car ever end up on it's side.
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post #19 of 68 Old 07-03-2009, 05:35 PM
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...waiting for the internet welding/cage building experts....
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post #20 of 68 Old 07-03-2009, 11:32 PM
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I'll bite, lol.

Bent bars = weaker. Was that welded with flux core? Those welds look awful goobery like there wasn't enough heat in the weld.

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post #21 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 12:02 AM
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Most of what you see is sealant, not the welds. I used a lot of caulking crap everywhere once the welding was over. Some of the welds are my own, those would be the ugliest. I hit a few places that my buddy didn't. But his welds are no masterpiece, they simply get the job done. Two different people welded on the car besides the little bit I did. One did the cage, one did the upper SFC's. I take that back, three people welded on the car.Tim at MPH welded on the lower SFC's over two years ago. The upper SFC's were welded on in a barn last summer in 95* weather, we weren't real concerned with "pretty" at the moment, considering they'd never be seen again in person.

I did not want the lower bar bent like he did but when I came back to pick up the car it was done. Too late. With the upper bar bolted in (I BOLT them in, I don't just use pins) it still triangulates the two and I'm sure it's strong enough. If not, my love handles are the next line of defense and they'll surely be enough to protect me.

For anyone else, if it looks unsafe to you, don't ride in my car with me.

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post #22 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 07:38 AM
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For anyone else, if it looks unsafe to you, don't ride in my car with me.
I just don't want to be with you while you're out there racing. That thing could fly apart and kill pregnant nuns visiting orphanages! U R N-SANE!!1!!

I heard from a reliable source you used exhaust tubing and not cage tubing. FA'REALS?!
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post #23 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 11:52 AM
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I heard from a reliable source you used exhaust tubing and not cage tubing.
Did you mean like this?


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post #24 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 12:08 PM
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Oh my gosh....
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post #25 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 12:32 PM
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I used exhaust tubing to make a template for the rollbar that I built. I just cut notches in it and tacked it together to hold the shape. Once I was happy with it, i bent a piece of DOM tubing to match. It was actually a very easy way to do it.

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post #26 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 01:01 PM
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Just remember, there is a difference between not pretty, and not solid.

Also, I wouldn't think that top door bar welded to that little stub shaft would take much punishment, but like you said, its not my car. I built mine with three sided plating on the main hoop and front floor mounts (ran plate on the floor and both vertical parts of the corner) and ran straight pipe everywhere. It just seems to me like you went through the effort to do the through-floor subframe connectors, then went with a weaker roll cage setup.

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post #27 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 01:06 PM
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The door bars are a problem. I hope they never get tested...

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post #28 of 68 Old 07-04-2009, 08:39 PM
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I got a 4X6 plate welded to a 12X12 plate which is welded to the floor pan. Under the car, there are a bunch of little hole drilled through the floor pan so the 12X12 plate can be welded through the floor pan, not just around the edge. The "stub" is welded to the lower bar all the way around it, the rest is standard NHRA approved stuff. The door bar passes between my shoulders and waist per NHRA rules. The tubing itself is thicker than standard stuff. I can't remember the exact thickness but the rules called for thicker stuff with a convertible so I got that.

Why is it a weakness? I'm not being a dick, just like to learn something. If I go a split second faster drag racing, I'll have to either slow down or put a cage in the car, so I'm not going to change the door bars anyttime soon unless I'm taking that part out for a full cage. Just wondering where this weakness is.

Thanks

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post #29 of 68 Old 07-05-2009, 05:58 PM
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I don't understand...

Why put a cage in a street car?

Or...

Why add all the weight of stereo, sound deadening, full interior to a track car?

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I don't understand...

Why put a cage in a street car?

Or...

Why add all the weight of stereo, sound deadening, full interior to a track car?
Maybe he wants an "everything" car. Sure would suck to drive 100+ miles, run one 10.99 pass then have them say, "Oh, you can't run anymore without a 348 point cage".

Hell, I think with a convertable you hafta have a bar if you're over 13.49 or something now?! I may be wrong on that.

My car isn't really legal with the 4-point cage(needs a 6 point). It runs faster than 7.49 in the 1/8th and 11's in the 1/4. Yet it's got a 1200w stereo and a DVD player.

There's so many rules/stipulations out there you basically hafta have a tube chassis put in your brand new Corvette/Viper/Mustang when you drive them off the dealer lots.
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post #31 of 68 Old 07-05-2009, 08:46 PM
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I believe NHRA rules stipulate 6 point rollbars in *late model* cars (hardtops) running 11.49 or quicker.
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post #32 of 68 Old 07-05-2009, 09:02 PM
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Well, I've been 11.8 and was told that 7.49 in the 1/8th required a 5 or 6 point. I never really bothered too much with it because I don't goto the dragstrip that often(none as of the past 2 years) and TECH here is non-existent.
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post #33 of 68 Old 07-05-2009, 09:10 PM
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Well, I've been 11.8 and was told that 7.49 in the 1/8th required a 5 or 6 point. I never really bothered too much with it because I don't goto the dragstrip that often(none as of the past 2 years) and TECH here is non-existent.
I think NHRA just changed the requirement from 11.99 to 11.49 because too many new cars could hit the 11.99 mark in almost stock trim. I haven't looked at a NHRA rule book in about 10 years so I could be wrong, but that was what I was recently told by somebody who does drag-race.

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post #34 of 68 Old 07-05-2009, 09:20 PM
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Exactly....so the person that goes out and buys him a used Z06 and 400$ in drag radials needs to also install a 6 point cage in his "daily driver/street car" so he can run at his local T-N-T track.
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post #35 of 68 Old 07-05-2009, 09:42 PM
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How dangerous is it to have a roll bar/cage in a street driven car?

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