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post #1 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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CP or SM?

For those of you that are over-prepared for the Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared classes are you guys going to CP or SM? The PAX is better I think for CP. If you are going to be under prepared in either one, which one would you prefer?


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post #2 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLITT1992 View Post
For those of you that are over-prepared for the Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared classes are you guys going to CP or SM? The PAX is better I think for CP. If you are going to be under prepared in either one, which one would you prefer?
Being a local/regional part time autocrosser, I usually just run with the SM crew as there are at least a few cars in that group, mostly on street tires and the types of cars are diverse. Some are Civics on race tires, partially gutted, motor swapped, some are WRX/STi's with suspension, a Mustang/Camaro or two. Just kind of a hodge-podge.

This was a fun event, last runs on my Azenis:

http://www.trscca.org/results/042609_sum.htm

(...and yea, thats .001 I got beat by. )

'Street Modified' Total Entries: 12

1T 16 Fuller, Arnold Honda Civic 63.035 - -
2T 69 Bolton, Tony Mustang GT 63.036 0.001 0.001
3T 77 K, Topy Civic 64.473 1.437 1.438
4T 179 Ruanto, Wally VW GTi 64.980 0.507 1.945
5 71 Sisavaty, Sirison Civic 65.396 0.416 2.361
6 99 Waterman, Eric Evo 65.747 0.351 2.712
7 7 Popovic, Kris Integra 65.849 0.102 2.814
8 79 Avdic, Fikret VW GTI 66.176 0.327 3.141
9 41 Rutzky, Bob Subaru WRX Wagon 66.319 0.143 3.284
10 38 McKinley, Matt Subura WRX 70.564 4.245 7.529
11 4 Dolympio, Angelo Mustang GT 74.176 3.612 11.141
12 83 Barrett, Brandon Subura WRX dns

With all the above being said, it's best to ASK if you're not class legal. There's probably some hard-ass somewhere in the group that will cry bloody murder if you don't take autocrossing as seriously as they do.


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post #3 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 07:14 PM
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Given that I've got no hope in any class with my car, I decided to go to CP so I don't have to worry about what I do to it.

I think some fairly common mods might bump you out of SM, though people might feel it doesn't matter at the local level.
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post #4 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Our SM class is pretty big. Last month we had 18 entrants. My ESP time would have put me at 12 of 18.

'Street Modified' - Total Entries: 18 Trophies: 6 Car Color Region Times Total
1T SM 21 Darnell Walton Nissan 240sx 43.762 42.432 42.368 40.549
41.326 41.132+1 40.549 -
2T SM 37 Odell Lavigne Evo 9 MR 42.192 41.429 41.113 40.652
40.652 40.856 41.083 0.103
3T SM 1 Lance Fitzhenry Nissan 240SX 42.359+1 41.687 41.090+ 40.922
42.077 40.922 41.122 0.270
4T SM 95 Justin Victor Nissan 240 black 41.813 41.908 41.032 41.032
41.501 41.318 41.410 0.110
5T SM 4 Dean Gagnon Ford Pinto 44.111 42.540 43.042+5 41.278
42.334 41.278 46.505+DNF 0.246
6T SM 2 Rodney Prejean 1991 Nissan 240Sx Blue 44.703 43.859 43.071 41.878
42.366 42.369 41.878 0.600
7 SM 121 Pete Walton Nissan 240SX 44.838 43.945 44.018 41.916
42.875 41.916 41.458+1 0.038
8 SM 61 Bradley Fitzhenry 2003 Nissan 350Z Blue 45.087+DNF 42.474 42.500 42.474
41.268+1 42.246+1 42.412+1 0.558
9 SM 157 Nick Bayard Honda Civic 43.525 42.838+1 42.474+1 42.890
42.125+2 42.031+2 40.890+1 0.416
10 SM 111 Dominic Favalora Nissan 240SX 45.603 45.724 44.814+1 43.253
43.507 43.253 42.635+1 0.363
11 SM 81 Tommy Thompson 1991 Nissan 240Sx Red 44.947 44.488+1 44.296 43.466
44.837 43.466 43.397+2 0.213
12 SM 18 Paul Sahugue Nissan 240SX 48.313+DNF 46.056+1 44.979 43.742
43.885 43.958+1 43.742 0.276
13 SM 7 Adam Hall 240SX 45.307 44.383 44.489 44.349
44.349 44.797 44.458 0.607
14 SM 32 Roberto Romero Lexus IS300 55.202+4 46.747 47.659+1 45.814
46.172 45.814 45.184+1 1.465
15 SM 142 Mike Haydel Ford Mustang 47.970 46.844 47.412+3 46.222
46.289+1 46.785 46.222 0.408
16 SM 42 Laurel Gagnon Ford Mustang 50.181+DNF 48.863 61.471+1 47.693
49.168+1 47.693 47.502+1 1.471
17 SM 17 Yousef Azzam Ford Focus SVT 57.300+DNF 50.455 50.213 47.701
46.338+DNF 47.701 47.990 0.008
18 SM 44 Nicholas Dupuis 1992 Nissan 240Sx Red 48.469+DNF 48.663+DNF 47.701+DNF 49.522
47.623+DNF 45.522+2 51.136+DNF 1.821

'E Street Prepared' - Total Entries: 3 Trophies: 1 Car Color Region Times Total
1T ESP 24 Chris S 2001 Ford Mustang Black 44.199 42.446+DNF 43.559 43.559
44.285+1 43.945 43.305+1 -

2 ESP 51 Alfred Yee 1997 Chevorlet Camaro Z-28 Mystic Teal 46.276 44.933 44.575 44.575
44.970 45.340 45.319 1.016
3 ESP 13 Nathan Brandom Ford Mustang 45.841 46.340 45.544 45.412
45.412 48.157+3 0.837

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post #5 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 08:37 PM
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We need to learn how drive.
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post #6 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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The 245's don't help, but yeah I really drove like poo that last go round.

Notice the proliferation of 240's in SM. Most of which are turbo's running 275's. Lighter, more power, and wider tires. I'm really going to have to step up my game. Maybe it will make me a better driver.

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post #7 of 29 Old 06-03-2009, 08:57 PM
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post #8 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 01:26 PM
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What are you doing to the car that's going to bump you out of ESP? I'm grappling with the same thing as I reeeeeeally want to do MM lower control arms but they would bump me out of ESP so I'm leaning towards just throwing in a set of new OEM lower control arms to replace my 160,000+ mile old ones and calling it a day.

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post #9 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 01:48 PM
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I am in C/Prepared (decent suspension setup and differential, down on power and tire width--wah wah) and it's just fine by me. Unless you're making substantial changes just stick to E/SP and focus on the driving aspect. That's my game plan and why I took a SoloPro school this year. My mistakes were (and are) leaving lots of time out there.

Pax isn't on my list of excuses since I'm getting regularly straight time clobbered by a hot-shoe in a F/SP 1st Gen Celica.

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post #10 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 02:28 PM
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PAX crutch. Amazing.

I'm getting pretty tired of hearing the babies who on one hand claim they don't care about being competitive, than whine when they aren't.

Put up, or for the love of Christ, Shut up. Directed only to those that like to toss rocks at those of us that are serious but come up with a 100 excuses why they aren't (all the while claiming they'd be great).

Back on point:

Bullitt1992: Either way you need better than street tires. CP is likely the better choice, at least you deal with other pony cars. SM brings in better basic cars that can do the same mods and in a lot of cases are better out of the box. Also CP is more likely to be filled with cars like yours at a local level. SM could be, but likely with better cars at a similar if not prep level (which puts you in a hole).


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post #11 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 02:36 PM
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post #12 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 03:05 PM
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Having a person who drives well as a benchmark for what's possible on a current platform is somehow bad? Personally, I'd love to see what Sam (hell, any National level driver even) could pull out of my turd of a car if the chance arose.

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post #13 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 03:34 PM
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^^^ Agreed. The most fun I had at autox was when there was a good driver in the same model/prep level car and my goal was no more than a 1 sec margin.
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post #14 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Oh yeah I need MUCH more tire under the car. I'm out of ESP due to the recent lower control arm upgrade. It wasn't done to help my autox time though. One trip to the drag strip with the 5 Link II showed lots of wheel hop, and quite frankly it wheel hopped under hard launch anywhere, not just the drags. Since I'd like to do more than just auto cross the upgrade of the lowers was a MUST. Now I am also doing front and rear coil over conversion. The handling benefits will be nice, but I'm really hopping for improved ride quality. All of the things im changing is for the overall enjoyment of the car. I drive it daily, autox twice a month and go to the drag strip occasionally.

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post #15 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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Oh yeah, SM runs on street tires only locally. SM R-Comp guys go to the big open tire class. CP still uses slicks but there a 0 cars in CP around here although we could recruit over modefied ESP cars. The would still be under prepped for CP

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post #16 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
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Having a person who drives well as a benchmark for what's possible on a current platform is somehow bad? Personally, I'd love to see what Sam (hell, any National level driver even) could pull out of my turd of a car if the chance arose.
Me too.

Last edited by 2k2GT; 06-04-2009 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Bleeehhhhh....again.
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post #17 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 07:19 PM
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I wouldn't say I lose (loose ) sleep over it either but I hate losing (loosing ) too so I'm somewhat conflicted in my interest in the sport. After all, it is MY CAR.

C/P, SM or whatever turns your crank, Mr.Bullitt, as far as I'm concerned.
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post #18 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Just curious as to what you guys have done. I'll probably run SM as I think the competition there will make me a better driver. SM is our deepest class for certain. Hopefully next season I'll be able to co-drive someone else's car in regionals and maybe I can even be a tire warmer on someone's car at Nationals. I'd like to drive at those events and see if I can manage to finish at least one spot above DFL.

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post #19 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 08:51 PM
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If you aren't semi-serious about prepping your car for a class, why would you care about PAX?

It is a useful number if you are trying to compare yourself and your car to the top guys, but otherwise, it is good for nothing. Say you run CP and PAX 35th instead of 50th. What happens then?

In your case, I'd run SM.

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post #20 of 29 Old 06-04-2009, 09:03 PM
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The stripped interior, infloor subframes and the 351W swap put me in C/Prepared to begin with. The rest of the of the mods (t-arm, phb, k-member etc) came after. It's less woefully under-prepared now but still not built to the limits of the rulebook. I don't have the kind of budget to do so and besides, the car is pretty damn good as it sits even if it's an eyesore from the outside.

The asphalt at our local venue is breaking up something awful so running 10"-12" wide slicks would be slower than the 275/40/17 'R' compounds I run now plus I'd have to downsize the brakes and that's not going to happen.

It comes down to what you want to do. A fully done up C/P car is not street friendly and it'll be an uncomfortable PITA if you try but it'll be very, very capable in the right hands on a balanced design autox course.

If you want a multi-purpose car (street, drag, autocross), be satisfied with some compromises to each aspect of how you want to use the car.
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Well it will never be a fully prepared SM or CP ride....

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post #22 of 29 Old 06-05-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moving Target View Post
Having a person who drives well as a benchmark for what's possible on a current platform is somehow bad? Personally, I'd love to see what Sam (hell, any National level driver even) could pull out of my turd of a car if the chance arose.
My most fun day of autocrossing thus far was a month ago when a National driver (ED Lange) co-drove my Cobra. All throughout the day we were within a few tenths of each-other as we got faster and faster and somehow at the end of the day my fastest was 4 tenths faster than him! It was probably mainly due to that fact that I drive the car every single day but it was just so much fun to have someone at that level running the exact same car to compare myself to. We wound up 3rd in PAX which isn't bad considering my Tokiko blues are shot and I have nothing done to the rear suspension that ESP allows other than springs.

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post #23 of 29 Old 06-05-2009, 06:08 PM
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I think I'm going to let one of our local hot-shoes do the same thing, only I feel the margin will just get worse, lol.

In my opinion, chris, if you have good competition on SM, go for it. I'm actually contemplating the same thing myself, but I'm just not sure about whether I want to make that jump or not. It's the same way here in SM - lightweight imports with big tires, stripped interiors and turbos, not to mention better suspension setups. I've got a few other things to consider before I make any changes, including looking over the rule book to decide where I want to go.

Down to one '86 GT riding some jackstands, but there's somethin in the works!!
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post #24 of 29 Old 06-05-2009, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah. One you step out of ESP it's pretty much SM, CP or beyond. CP cars are pretty serious business and not road worthy or at least not street legal. I doubt my car will ever be fully prepared to the limit of CP or SM. I'm going to need some good driving and a some equipment improvement to make a splash. New tires and wheels won't be coming for at least a year, and maybe not even then. I've got too many irons in the fire right now and I've got some more important life changing events coming up that command more attention and money.

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post #25 of 29 Old 06-05-2009, 08:05 PM
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Heh, I've got a little shoe box that I've thrown most of the receipts of the stuff I've bought over the last 3 years for my car and I haven't yet sat down and tallied it up. I'm afraid so very afraid of the answer so I know the pain.


The things I've spent money on this year are: installation of the TrueTrac diff(diff, new bearings and cups), a set of Hankook road race compound (C30) tires, 2 day SoloPro school, some MM wheel spacers (tire clearance problem with the rear inner fenderwells when the car rolls) and some 3" ARP wheel studs for said spacers. Ugh.

This was supposed to be a small budget year...
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post #26 of 29 Old 06-05-2009, 09:53 PM
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moving target, I know your pain... this was supposed to be just some interior and MAYBE some brake work, lol... so far, it's been MM XL SFC's Steeda 5-link-2,corbeaus 4 wheel discs with cobra stuff up front, and etc etc. now I'm contemplating a cage and new tires, lol.

Down to one '86 GT riding some jackstands, but there's somethin in the works!!
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post #27 of 29 Old 06-06-2009, 11:44 PM
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I'm right there with you guys.

True Track, new rear gears, axles, and new bearings for all of this stuff, and now brake ducts and C4 'vette calipers/rotors.

And I'm still in STX!! (though, I'm thinking of running CP at Nationals just for the parties)

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post #28 of 29 Old 06-13-2009, 08:41 PM
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Since you don't have any CP competitors locally, I'd say run SM and it'll make you a better driver. You'll have to be- a Mustang is a poor starting point for SM but it can eventually be pretty fast. Don't do anything to the car just for that class- just make the mods you WANT to make and enjoy your ride.

And if you go to nationals someday screw SM run CP!

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post #29 of 29 Old 06-13-2009, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I'm pretty much cool with going to SM. The competition will be good there and it will push me to be a better driver. I'm not really doing any "mods" for the class. Originally I was thinking of staying ESP legal, but that isn't where I really want to go with the car. One of the great things about having a Mustang is all the aftermarket support that comes along with it that allows you to make it what you want it to be. The direction that I'm heading in should allow me to have a pretty fun car that I can autocross, drag, drive to and from work, and have a little fun on the weekends.

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