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post #1 of 53 Old 05-18-2009, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Moving from ESP to STU, thoughts?

I'm thinking about making the jump from ESP to STU at my local region's autocross events because I will be sticking with street tires and it PAXes better than ESP. The idea came when I realized at yesterday's autocross I had the 3rd fastest PAX time of the day and if I had been registered in STU I would have been 1/10th off of the fastest PAX time of the day and I would have still beaten the other guys in STU.

Looking around the rules it looks like all of the suspension mods we're allowed in ESP are also allowed in STU but it looks like I'll also be able to go with aftermarket lower control arms, can you guys think of any other things I'm overlooking when making this switch???


MM subs, springs, and cc plates, Koni SA's, Steeda x2's, front bar, and bumpsteer kit
DBA Rotors, Hawk HPS's, FRPP 3.73's, Eaton diff, and 17x9 Cobra R's with 285 Kuhmo XS's
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post #2 of 53 Old 05-18-2009, 12:35 PM
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Maybe Sam or someone else can chime in on this thread.

Was 3.73 gears an option on 96 cobras? My 96 Cobra had 3.27 gears stock, I believe. I thought non-option gears threw you up to SM.

Aluminum rack bushings: Maybe I am missing something here thou:

2009 National Solo Rules
Street Tire Classes
14.8 SUSPENSION F. Solid metal bushings are specifically prohibited.
Street Prepared Classes
15.8 SUSPENSION E. Solid metal bushings are specifically prohibited.

Thou maybe your region has additional allowances....


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post #3 of 53 Old 05-18-2009, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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3.55's are the most rear gear I'm supposed to be allowed but no-one cares about the 3.73's because they are so close and the aluminum rack bushings are the same deal, no-one cares because they really aren't giving me much (if any) advantage over the poly ones that are allowed.

This isn't a car that will ever run on a national level and the region I run in is extremely laid back, there are a lot of us that have a small mod here or there that isn't technically legal but doesn't make us any faster so we overlook it.

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post #4 of 53 Old 05-18-2009, 02:12 PM
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Subframe connectors are not legal in STU. The gears aren't a big deal, but the subframes would provide a distinct advantage.

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post #5 of 53 Old 05-18-2009, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dammit, I completely forgot about that, CRAP!


ESP it is, good call brother

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post #6 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
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FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dammit, I completely forgot about that, CRAP!


ESP it is, good call brother
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciotti View Post
I'm thinking about making the jump from ESP to STU at my local region's autocross events because I will be sticking with street tires and it PAXes better than ESP. The idea came when I realized at yesterday's autocross I had the 3rd fastest PAX time of the day and if I had been registered in STU I would have been 1/10th off of the fastest PAX time of the day and I would have still beaten the other guys in STU.

Looking around the rules it looks like all of the suspension mods we're allowed in ESP are also allowed in STU but it looks like I'll also be able to go with aftermarket lower control arms, can you guys think of any other things I'm overlooking when making this switch???
I don't want to throw a wet blanket on your fun. Usually the little variences from being class legal being passed over are for the guys who are new or are mid pack runners or below. Since you ARE pax'ing so close to the top you probably should get legal for the class. SM is where a number of our guys were due to them having subframes until the new rules came out. Some of them could go back to ESP but some of them had to go to CP due to their having cross braced subframes which aren't legal in ESP or SM.

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post #7 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 08:03 AM
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Does "Steering" fall under "Suspension?"
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post #8 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:20 AM
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Ehhh, you have a convertible. Just toss some bolts somewhere in the lower frame and say "they're stock bolt sub-conn's."
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post #9 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:27 AM
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Eh, we all know that the SCCA rules lack a bit of ... perspective when it comes to your typical Mustang enthusiast and common mods. I understand fully that the SCCA has to make rules that cover so many makes and models that they can't make allowances for every make/model specific mod. But you have to admit some of the allowances and exceptions that are made for the common Mustang classes seem kind of silly at times.

For people on a local-only level it doesn't really matter if you have one or two "iffy" mods like a rear seat delete or 4.10 gears when update/backdate allows 3.73's. Big whoop.

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post #10 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:33 AM
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Ozz....i've tried to fight that battle before. To say I got led to a burning cross, crucified, buried in a septic tank and left to rot would be an understatement.

Choose your battles wisely when dealing with the SCCA hardcore's....that's all i'll say.


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post #11 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 10:57 AM
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The dinosaur rules of the SCCA are why organizations like NASA are starting to attract many new racers to their events. Autocross unfortunately is still mostly SCCA dominated. You have to just accept that the fox and SN95 Mustang will never be given a competitive chance.

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post #12 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 12:18 PM
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the SCCA has to make rules that cover so many makes and models that they can't make allowances for every make/model specific mod. But you have to admit some of the allowances and exceptions that are made for the common Mustang classes seem kind of silly at times.
So where do you draw the line? Every class, not just SCCA, needs a specific limit of modifications. Even in rec. sports, where do we draw the line? A ball or bat that is not quite spec? And I wouldn't say that I'm hard core SCCA, but I am as far as building a car to a specific class and rule set, no matter what the governing group is. As you know, the ESP "allowances and exceptions", apply to every make and model, not just Mustangs. And in this case, SAAC is giving the Mustang a rule advantage in the suspension area to level the playing field with the f-bodies. When was the last time you saw Fox or SN95 with a factory 3 or 5-link?

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post #13 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
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A few things important here.

1. Aluminum rack bushings are not legal in STU.... or ESP.

2. the SFC's were mentioned

3. An SN95 has a place to play competitively, ESP. If those of you that claim not to care and autox purely for fun are sincere then it shouldn't bother you anyway. Also SCCA is not the SN95 Car Club of America. There are marque clubs that take their ball and play their own game, like a lot of BMW and Porsche clubs because they don't like getting beat by other cars. Don't be like them.

4. If you do not have R-comps then yes, STU might well make more sense since there are more realistic street tires there vs. R's. But then again, you go from running against other pony-cars and a WRX here and there to Evo's and STi's that have way more traction and power to go with it and make better use of the less grippy street tires.

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post #14 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 12:41 PM
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So where do you draw the line? Every class, not just SCCA, needs a specific limit of modifications. Even in rec. sports, where do we draw the line? A ball or bat that is not quite spec? And I wouldn't say that I'm hard core SCCA, but I am as far as building a car to a specific class and rule set, no matter what the governing group is. As you know, the ESP "allowances and exceptions", apply to every make and model, not just Mustangs. And in this case, SAAC is giving the Mustang a rule advantage in the suspension area to level the playing field with the f-bodies. When was the last time you saw Fox or SN95 with a factory 3 or 5-link?

Well said Hipogt. Shows a clear understanding the world does not revolve around him or his car (not that most in this thread think that, but some do).

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post #15 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 02:55 PM
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Ring and Pinion gears are a good example of where the rules seem a tad silly. Why allow an update/backdate to 3.73's (SVO for the Foxes, Bullitt for the 99-04 guys and Track Pack option for the S197 guys) but not allow 4.10's, 4.30's, 3.90's etc.? Seems a little arbitrary to allow the ratio change but not to an aftermarket ratio.

Not that I really care, I only run locally and am too slow for anyone to question any mods I may or may not have anyway.

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post #16 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 03:34 PM
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You pick your weapon, and you live with the rules. The rules are simply in SP. If it was an option in some other car that shares a line, it's ok.

Blame Ford if you want to, but the bottom line is that ratios are not free. And even when someone has options like 3.55, 3.73 or 4.10--they pretty much then want 3.90's instead. You can't make everyone happy all the time.

And fwiw, if that rule were in place, I'd have 4.10's in my Camaro--and believe me an LS1 with 4.10's benefits a huge amount from the stock 3.42's. Be careful what you wish for..... STi's with short gearing could then run taller ratios and not be forced into 3rd on faster courses. That helps them.

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post #17 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 03:53 PM
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STU lends itself to benefiting the FI cars like Evos and Sti's because they can retune and run more boost, so they will legally make more power and have AWD.

Its nice that you can run in ESP, but you are limited to doing less than what most Mustang guys want. Heads, cams, etc. Of course the fact that the standard way to attach a TA on a Mustang isn't even legal in SM doesn't make it easier to swallow.

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post #18 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 04:47 PM
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So where do you draw the line? Every class, not just SCCA, needs a specific limit of modifications. Even in rec. sports, where do we draw the line? A ball or bat that is not quite spec? And I wouldn't say that I'm hard core SCCA, but I am as far as building a car to a specific class and rule set, no matter what the governing group is. As you know, the ESP "allowances and exceptions", apply to every make and model, not just Mustangs. And in this case, SAAC is giving the Mustang a rule advantage in the suspension area to level the playing field with the f-bodies. When was the last time you saw Fox or SN95 with a factory 3 or 5-link?
Take a look at how NASA classifies cars for their classes with the following link:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/T...ation-form.pdf

The classification NASA uses is for open track Time Trial classes, and some of the things they ask (dyno, etc) would be hard to ask for the average autocrosser, but it is cool to see a set of rules that allows a lot of different types of cars to compete against each other. You can see STI's, Mustangs, Corvettes, Porsches, and S2000s going head to head in the same class and on a relatively even performance level.

The SCCA is still fun. That's partly why I got a Z06. I did really well at the 2008 Dixie Tour running ASP with a car more setup for SS, but I have always wished there was a spot for the average street driven Mustang to compete without turning it into a race car. Having a chance to win is part of the fun. NASA seems to have taken that into account with their rules and classifications.
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post #19 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 08:30 PM
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Why do we go round and round about this? Show me a rulebook, and I'll show you someone who doesn't like something about it, or thinks his car is being ignored......

I look at NASA's rules and think they are pretty dumb. Points for parts, and in a lot of instances the points don't seem to match the performance gains gotten (or not). How is doing something, or a number of somethings that are small that add up to enough to bump you to a higher class any different than saying a car with a changed rear bar can't run stock category in SCCA?

Further NASA has no autox program that's worth a damn. And they are the new kids on the block. As they grow you will see more and more folks grumble about how this or that works there as well.

I'm not anti-NASA. I have been a member of NASA. Just saying that those who want to step up do and don't let rules they disagree with keep them from competing. And fwiw, I find it a big disingenuous to complain about the TA mounting rule... It came about because SFC's were finally made legal. It effected no car I can think of that ran Nationally, or even Divisionally. Most cars either use a Steeda 5 link or a stock 4 link with maybe some different upper arms (and those allowances are already far beyond what any other car got). So forgive me for not crying too hard about that.

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post #20 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:35 PM
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Maybe it's because you keep interpreting Mustang owners' angst about what constitutes illegality regarding the most common type of T/A mount with some desire for favorable treatment on the part of their owners.

Maybe it's because the SCCA's idea of what constituted a "street" level of preparedness hadn't kept pace in the least with the modifications enthusiasts routinely made to their honest-to-goodness "street" cars since about 1986, and when they finally caught up, they disallowed the most common playing-field-leveler because it constitutes "cross bracing", despite being bolted in place.

Maybe it's the ongoing irony of a guy who trailers his "Stock" car to events, and who buys what beats the class every year, always providing a yawning condescension toward those who would complain because the cars they drive on the street to events, and drive on the street virtually every day, are deemed to be cars not prepared to a "street" level by the SCCA.

Call me crazy, I don't know.



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post #21 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:40 PM
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I was withholding soo bad up until this point....
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post #22 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:51 PM
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Well I still think Solo2 is fun and I have a blast, but I like to look at my raw times and see where they match up with other driver and car combos.

Of course anyone can find rules that they don't like.

There are some things that I want to do with my car for my own personal pleasure, comfort, and enjoyment. Unfortunately some of those things don't fit into the rules of Street Prepared and some of them don't even give me an advantage at autox but I'm going to do them anyway. It looks like I will end up in SM at some point.

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post #23 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 09:55 PM
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FWIW, I hardly consider the cross mounting of a TA mount any more extreme than aftermarket turbos or superchargers or any less streetable than 300% stiffer than stock suspension.


I think that Street Prepared should allow modified macstrut suspension to convert to true coilover setups. That is one change that I think could actually bring some streetable manners back to cars with very high spring rates in conventional locations. a la ESP Mustangs with 1600# front springs.

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post #24 of 53 Old 05-19-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
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The dinosaur rules of the SCCA are why organizations like NASA are starting to attract many new racers to their events. Autocross unfortunately is still mostly SCCA dominated. You have to just accept that the fox and SN95 Mustang will never be given a competitive chance.
Before you go singing from the NASA hymnal look at this example at NASA-X classing. My 97 GT with springs, Illuminas, and a panhard bar on 245 street tires has to run against new Miatas on Hoosiers in NXE. Not going to happen.

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post #25 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 01:41 AM
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Jan,

I am not saying that NASA's rules are perfect, especially for autocross, but I do like the thought that went into trying to accomodate all cars. Some are getting worked up a little more than they should. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a big SCCA tatoo on their chest. For the rest, it's just a hobby... but we still would like a chance to win

Next rule discussion... street vs R's for stock? lol

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post #26 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 03:14 AM
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Jan,

I am not saying that NASA's rules are perfect, especially for autocross, but I do like the thought that went into trying to accomodate all cars. Some are getting worked up a little more than they should. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a big SCCA tatoo on their chest. For the rest, it's just a hobby... but we still would like a chance to win
I couldn't agree more if I tried. I'm not really sure why they even have classes, just buy a C5 Vette, a Miata, a Cooper, an 05> Mustang or an Impreza variation and get in where you fit in and just leave it stock.

Quote:
Next rule discussion... street vs R's for stock? lol

José
I'll never forget my first few events autocrossing.

ME(talking to friends): Man, this is fun, how'm I doin'?
FRIENDS: You look pretty quick out there and you didn't get lost!! (laughing)
ME: What cars similar to mine are beating me(driving an Acura Integra at the time)?
FRIENDS: Well, there is this STOCK CRX thats got you by like 4 seconds.
ME: WTH!? It's STOCK!?!?!
FRIENDS: Yea, but it's got a rollbar and some really wide racing slicks.
ME: Slicks and rollbar?! How the Hell is that STOCK?!?!?!
FRIENDS: Well, it's in "G-STOCK" whatever the "G" means...


And yes, I realize this is a no-win battle. The hardcore SCCA'ers will fight to their death in preaching the right-ness of anything SCCA. I just think along the marching in that right-ness, they forget that some peoples idea of fun may be different than theirs.

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post #27 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 08:51 AM
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STU lends itself to benefiting the FI cars like Evos and Sti's because they can retune and run more boost, so they will legally make more power and have AWD.
I thought I read boost was now open for FI cars in SP, which doesn't thrill me considering they already have the AWD advantage. I may(hopefully) be wrong.

Rob
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post #28 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 09:04 AM
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I thought I read boost was now open for FI cars in SP, which doesn't thrill me considering they already have the AWD advantage. I may(hopefully) be wrong.
I think you may be right, but I don't want to be forced to sit in the corner and wear a dunce cap so ill wait for someone more familiar with the rules to confirm. I would think so though because I'm not sure how the would regulate boost levels. I don't have FI so I don't know for sure.

I still don't see how that is fair to the NA RWD crowd when you can turn a 300 hp awd machine into a 500 or 600 hp awd machine if you wanted to but yet the 265 hp crowd can get to 280/300 with the mods allowed by SP rules.

2k2GT you forgot rx8

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post #29 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
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2k2GT you forgot rx8
There's a few I forgot....I could rant all day on this subject if need be.
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post #30 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 09:31 AM
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There's a few I forgot....I could rant all day on this subject if need be.
S2000 CR, Integra Type R, etc....


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post #31 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 10:25 AM
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Jan,

I am not saying that NASA's rules are perfect, especially for autocross, but I do like the thought that went into trying to accomodate all cars. For the rest, it's just a hobby... but we still would like a chance to win
Next rule discussion... street vs R's for stock? lol

José
SCCA also has a class for every car, they just can't guarantee you will be competitive, but then again, neither does NASA. Not bashing NASA, just don't see them having that winning, "average street Mustang class", anymore than FS, ESP, or CP. And unfortunately, most Fox bodies and SN95's will never be competitive in FS again, due to the S197 evolution. And I'm sure it varies between regions, but here, CP is as large as ESP, and I would say most to all the cars are street driven, non-R shod, that do not fit in SP. I would rather play there for a win, as opposed to fighting to place in SM. And yes, I would say it's a hobby for most of us, and everyone likes a chance to win.......even me.

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post #32 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 11:10 AM
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Maybe it's the ongoing irony of a guy who trailers his "Stock" car to events, and who buys what beats the class every year,
Call me crazy, I don't know.
Yes, but to be fair, that part has been going on by a lot of guys for the last 20+ years, and not just in autox. OK. You're crazy.

BULLITT1992, I think I need your can 'o worms!

2k2GT- Sometimes you do seem to enjoy the battle, more so than others. But I think you're way outta line. I don't recall anything about septic tanks or being left to rot.

Coitti- Our OP! Stay and play in ESP, I'm going to need all the support I can get to those Subies.

Good speed,

Rob
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post #33 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 11:35 AM
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Ha. Its always fun to have a heated debate pop up.

The classing thing doesn't really concern me much right now, since I'm not participating in regional or national level events. Right now, I'm just a rookie who enjoys having a place to play and I consider myself lucky that even though I am in MS I have two places to go. One is 30 miles away and the other is 90. Its nice to have options.

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post #34 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 12:46 PM
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SCCA also has a class for every car, they just can't guarantee you will be competitive, but then again, neither does NASA. Not bashing NASA, just don't see them having that winning, "average street Mustang class", anymore than FS, ESP, or CP. And unfortunately, most Fox bodies and SN95's will never be competitive in FS again, due to the S197 evolution. And I'm sure it varies between regions, but here, CP is as large as ESP, and I would say most to all the cars are street driven, non-R shod, that do not fit in SP. I would rather play there for a win, as opposed to fighting to place in SM. And yes, I would say it's a hobby for most of us, and everyone likes a chance to win.......even me.
On a local level, it's not really an issue. My perspective is from a National level. The gap that is missing in the the SCCA is the one between ESP and CP. SM is really not a good class for Mustangs with the AWD cars and other better balanced vehicles. Even the Camaro can use a little help here. I am not too concerned about the stock classes. That is an ever evolving class due to new cars being released. An ESP Mustang though is not that much different from stock, and all the popular mods were illegal (real SFC, gears, coilovers). To be truly competitive in CP (or any Prepared Class), the car essentially must be a true gutted race car. My dad has a nice EP Celica that is not even close to street legal.

The class I find most exciting to watch in NASA-SE is their TTA class. The Z06 is typically considered the car to have, but I have seen results of a Camaro Z28 and Porsche 911 winning on separate occasions. Some TTB (BMW's and S2000's) cars are running right with them as well. I believe an American Iron Mustang starts off in TTA. A MM modded Mustang also fits nicely right in to either of those two classes and has a fighting chance. Your average bolt on modded GT fits in TTC and actually has a chance with proof being last year's results. So the rules can be adapted for some flexibility.

For the most part, the SCCA is a good organization, but their philosophy on making rules is different. The best analogy I can think of is that they prefer to use a big paint roller to create their rules, while NASA tried to use a finer brush.

And I also want you to have that chance to win!
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post #35 of 53 Old 05-20-2009, 01:07 PM
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I agree with Diesel. I think most of the problem is the gap from ESP to CP for Mustangs. Mustangs are at a gross disadvantage in the SM class with the STIs and Evos running there as well. That's why you see Mustangs running locally that should technically be in SM because of a few "iffy" mods but run in ESP because that is where they are competitive.

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