93 Cobra Sway bar and Panhard HELP???? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 03-28-2009, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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93 Cobra Sway bar and Panhard HELP????

Which sway bar combo is most ideal for the street?

Currently I am using KYB AGX adjustables all the way around and the FRPP "B" spring. I have dumped the O.E. front bar and I am using a 93 GT front bar with stock bushings and in the O.E. bar in the rear. I would also like to know if shorter end links are a good choice.

I'd like to run my 3" Flowmaster tailpipes along with a "street" panhard bar if possible. I run a 408 so I'd really llike to keep the large tailpipes.

Thanks Corral


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post #2 of 11 Old 03-31-2009, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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post #3 of 11 Old 03-31-2009, 03:26 PM
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What is it you want the car to DO, that it ins't doing now? What is it you DON'T want it to do, that it IS doing now?

"Best" indeed. Best at what?
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post #4 of 11 Old 04-01-2009, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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Which sway bar combo is most ideal for the street?
Well.......

Its a little loose in the rear coming out of turns on acceleration and it seems to drift out on turn in. It handles much better than stock and I'm just curious if there is a "more ideal combo for the street."

I might road course it once a year at Houston Motorsport Ranch.

Upgrades are as follow:
full length sub frame connectors
upper and lower control arms
KYB AGX shocks and struts
FRPP "B" spring w/ new isolators
FRPP front lower control arm
Poly urethane swaybar endlinks - stock length
GT front sway bar with new bushings

The rear sway bar is stock.

Do I need a Panhard bar?

Thanks,

Art

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post #5 of 11 Old 04-01-2009, 11:36 AM
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Asking what sway bar is best is like asking which woman is the most attractive? It's a meaningless question without a LOT of context information.

So ignoring the swabar question for now, let's get down to what your car is DOING.

1 - understeer on corner entry. This could be an alignment issue, a tire inflation issue, a driving style issue, a front spring issue or a front sway bar issue. There's no way to tell for sure without driving the car, BUT I can guess, assuming you have the alignment and tire pressures dialed in, and you're not tossing the car into the corner with a violent turn-in, that your GT front bar is too stiff. Try running a softer front sway bar.

2 - oversteer on corner exit. This could be an over-zealous right-foot, a worn out limited-slip differential, tire inflation issues, track issues (off-camber at corner exit,) too much rear bar, too much rear spring, roll oversteer in the rear, or binding issues. What upper and lower arms are you running? If you have too little compliance in the bushings (especially in the upper bushings,) the rear end will bind up and oversteer. Adding a Panhard bar will make it worse if this is the case.

In general, for either end of the car, the stiffer the suspension, the LESS grip that end of the car has. So of a car is oversteering, you want softer springs and/or a sofrer sway bar in the rear OR you want stiffer springs and/or a stiffer sway bar in the front, just to balance the car.

Welcome to the black art of chassis/suspension tuning!

-- Robert King
NASA AI #42, Texas
Instructor, NASA Texas Region
Instructor, TWS Perf. Driving School
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post #6 of 11 Old 04-01-2009, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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And this is why I asked.

The shocks and struts are adjustable and I believe I have them cranked to full stiff.

The OEM Cobra bar was less stiff however the bushings were obselete and the bar was pretty roughed up so I opted for the GT.

I'll loosen the shocks and take it from there.

What are my options for a rear swaybar?

Is bigger diameter going to be stiffer?

Thanks Corral

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post #7 of 11 Old 04-02-2009, 11:02 AM
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The OEM Cobra bar was less stiff however the bushings were obselete and the bar was pretty roughed up so I opted for the GT.
1-1/8" front bar?? MM sells the correct bushings for this size of bar.
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post #8 of 11 Old 04-06-2009, 04:48 AM Thread Starter
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I thought that for "good handling" the car needed to be stiff and sta flat on turns????

I like my car to lean or sway as little as possible when changing lanes or working traffic on the highway at highspeeds. Am I tring to please two different driving styles with the same suspension setup? Do I need two setups? Should my shocks be firm on the street and loose for the turns?

Thanks for all the help!

I will keep updating.

Art

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post #9 of 11 Old 04-06-2009, 10:54 AM
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I thought that for "good handling" the car needed to be stiff
A stiff suspension works (sort-of) on a Mustangs because if the car's poor geometry. The front end on the car is practically zero camber gain in roll (which is needed to keep the contact patch flat on the road's surface.) So one way of dealing with it is to dial in a lot of static camber (so as the top of the tire moves ourward in a turn, the tire gets more vertical and the contact patch gets bigger.) Limiting the movement of the suspension also helps with this.

And this would work great if the track were prefectly smooth. Indeed, karts do very well with no suspension at all because they are very light and the tracks are smooth. (The only compliance in a kart's suspension is in the tires.)

But we don't drive on smooth spreets or tracks, so we need the suspension to be able to move to absorb the bumps and keep the tires planted firmly on the track surface. this is not an easy thing to do and find ing the tight amount of compliance versyus stiff ness is a black art and may take years of trial-and error to get just right -- for a particular track. Go to another track and all that changes and you have to start all over again.

So you want a suspension that is stiff enough such that the tire's movements are restricted enough that the contact patch remains as large as possible, but compliant enough to absorb the bumps and keep the tire planted as firmly as possible to the surface.

This is not easy, and if you have a suspenion geometry that is correct, you can allow the tire to move around more, making it easier to go with a softer suspension which plants the tires better.

So stiffer is not necessarily better from a handling perspective.

Body lean is a function of roll stiffness. It is partly determined by the stiffness of the suspension (springs and anti-roll bars,) and partly determined by the geometry (roll centers and the location of the genter of gravity.) If you have a stiff setup to keep the tires in a nice, contact-patch-friendly location, you'll have less body roll. If you have a good geometry that lets the tires move around more while keeping the contact patch happy, you will have more body roll, and it's not such a bad thing (although your center of gravity will move around slightly more with more body roll. This may or may not be a bad thing.)

It's interesting to note though that some body roll is a good thing. drivers seem to be able to driv4e better at the limit with at least a little body roll. Apparently the brain uses this to determine lateral acceleration. Part of what makes a Formula-1 car so difficult to drive fast is that there is little, if any, body roll, the suspension is so stiff (for a different reason, F1 cars have to maintain a very consistant gap between the track surface and the under tray for the aerodynamics to work. Their suspension moves less than an inch, typically.)

-- Robert King
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Instructor, NASA Texas Region
Instructor, TWS Perf. Driving School
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post #10 of 11 Old 04-11-2009, 02:19 AM Thread Starter
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What I really need to do is talk face to face to a pro like yourself.

There are a lot of "vette" guys in the Woodlands area I pick on from time to time. They click together with HPD and they are always raving about the track times they are getting and my 600hp doesn't mean squat out there.

Well I'll make a trip with some of my buddies and we'll see what its like.

Thanks Corral


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post #11 of 11 Old 04-11-2009, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Zarate Jr. View Post
What I really need to do is talk face to face to a pro like yourself.

There are a lot of "vette" guys in the Woodlands area I pick on from time to time. They click together with HPD and they are always raving about the track times they are getting and my 600hp doesn't mean squat out there.

Well I'll make a trip with some of my buddies and we'll see what its like.

Thanks Corral
If you want to talk Mustang handling, there'll be plenty of Mustang racers out at TWS in a week for the NASA races. For the $10 admission fee (good all weekend,) you can get a lot of good advice.

And if you want to try it out, TWS will be havin an HPDE event the following weekend. I'll be at both.

-- Robert King
NASA AI #42, Texas
Instructor, NASA Texas Region
Instructor, TWS Perf. Driving School
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