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post #1 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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Best 60 foot?

Ya i know most people in this subforum dont care about what they 60 foot or run at the 1/4 mile. But my goal was to have an 11 second car I can drive on the street, autox, and eventually road race. I recently went to the track and ran [email protected] with a 1.68 60 foot on ET streets. I hope to be autoxing it next month (i have before, but with less power). And it drives fine on the street.

Basically i want an all around car that is fun doing whatever. Im curious to see what 60 foots you guys have done at the 1/4 mile and still autox/road race your car. Would getting an adjustable coilover set be ideal so I could dial it in for drag, autox, street? I will be going to IRS shortly


94 gt: trickflow HCI, longtubes, 75mm tbody, 3.73, vortech s trim @ 11psi, 11.1 AFR 16 degrees timing, 470rwhp Tweecer tuned by Wes @ TPS Performance [ Sold ]
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post #2 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:16 AM
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I can completely relate to you as my goals are identical...even down to the 1/4 mile time.

1.59 60ft
7.47 1/8th ET
95 1/8th MPH
11.89 1/4 ET
117 1/4 MPH

150 shot N20

If you're in to making adjustments to optimize each activity, then i'm sure adjustable shocks and springs would be the way to go.

I prefer to just put it on the car, set it and forget it. Just my style, my preference.

Obviously I used ET Drags for my times, but that was about a year or so ago. I've added alot of stereo system weight and I no longer have my slicks.

I'm still confident I could run a 7.XX in the 1/8th mile. We don't have any close 1/4 mile tracks so I just try to optimize the car for the shorter 1/8ths.

FWIW, i've had my car at a car show Saturday, went to the drag strip later that day, then autocrossed it on Sunday. The only changes made were tires.

Thats my kind of "street car". It kinda makes me laugh when I see all the cars with the "slinky spring suspension" out there running slower. Yes I know alot are faster than me, but I just don't ever see me wanting a car that looks like it couldn't take a right turn at 40mph without rolling over.


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post #3 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Nice!
Yes, obviously a set it and forget it type would be preferable, but I wouldnt mind some adjusting if it meant just a few turns or clicks of a knob.

What suspension setup did you do the 1.59 on if you dont mind me asking?

94 gt: trickflow HCI, longtubes, 75mm tbody, 3.73, vortech s trim @ 11psi, 11.1 AFR 16 degrees timing, 470rwhp Tweecer tuned by Wes @ TPS Performance [ Sold ]
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post #4 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 09:19 AM
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I had the torque arm rear end with the stock K-member/A-arms. I had some 1200lb front springs and 500 or something rear springs.

I've since put all the tubular stuff on the front and gone coilovers. It saved some weight, but I don't think anything to make a difference.

I'm pretty sparatic on my drag racing skills anyway. I'll run a 7.4, but it'll only be after a buttload of 7.8's or 7.9's.

I think i'm somewhere in the middle of the below video. White GT/near side. It was from a long time ago. I think I ran [email protected] I do know that I was using some 275/50/15 BFG drag radials that run.....with Hoosier 275/40/17 road race CUP tires on the front. I'm racing a buddy's teal LT-1 F-body.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/joe-at-I40_131452.htm
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post #5 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 10:28 AM
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Are you running that 150 shot on a stock short block?

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post #6 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 11:43 AM
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Yes. It's actually more a 140 shot and it yielded an extra 137whp on the DYNO.

Been 5 years now and about 20 or so bottles.
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post #7 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 01:29 PM
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Funny my goals are near the same and my car setup is pretty close too, only I have a 93 Coupe. S-trim, ported E7's, same gears and close to the same boost. MM PHB, MM TQ arm (going on in a few weeks). I'll let you know what I 60 foot in a few weeks, it will be with M/T ET Drag Radials on Pony wheels. I have had the drag suspension and it was fun at the track, but sucked everyplace else.
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post #8 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 01:31 PM
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It's easier to drag race an autocross car, than it is to autocross a drag car.
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post #9 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 02:13 PM
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Man 140 shot? You're going to blow that thing up!

That's good stuff. I'm strongly considering running some down the road as the last piece of the puzzle.

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post #10 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 02:54 PM
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Use your head, and do it right the first time....you'll be OK. This is my first experience with nitrous, so i'm quite confident if I can do it, anyone can.

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post #11 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 05:57 PM
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I got 1.76's out of 275/40r17 RA1's, 12.5 at 108. Had an evm 3-link and 475lb. coilovers in front with Koni DA's, 375 rear CO's. The key is lots of clutch slip!

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post #12 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:11 PM
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Do any of you guys disconnect the front bar or go low rebound front/high rebound back and other stuff? Or, do the stiffer autocross/track rear springs kind of negate all that weight transfer type stuff?

I have no idea, the only car (I used to run my street bikes) I've run down the strip was my '02 GT stocker...something like 14.8 in 90 degree heat on Victoracers...I could have read the paper and eaten a sandwich, it was so slow.
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post #13 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Aubele View Post
I got 1.76's out of 275/40r17 RA1's, 12.5 at 108. Had an evm 3-link and 475lb. coilovers in front with Koni DA's, 375 rear CO's. The key is lots of clutch slip!
Agreed, I launched at 4500 slipping out the hole. Hooked good tho lol

I did no suspension adjustments, ran it like I run it on the street and at autox

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post #14 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:19 PM
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I don't understand the weight transfer idea for a few reasons. First drag springs are usually longer in the front, I understand how that works. The rear springs are usually the same size but softer. This is usually done to allow the weight to shift and the car to squat. But then, people add rear suspension components to help increase the Anti-Squat to really high levels. So on one hand you are trying to make the suspension squat and on the other hand you are forcing the chassis to rise. How do those two things work together?

If "I" were going to the track, I would probably disconnect the sway bar to see if I could get a little extra transfer. It's not that difficult of a task and it supposedly helps with the launch. Either way, I would agree in theory that it is much easier to drag race an autocross car than it is to autocross a drag car. Also if you think about it, some of the fast production cars in the world are not setup with a drag race suspension and still rip off impressive times even though they are setup more toward handling.

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post #15 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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From what I understand you dont necessarily want it to "squat" cause that is just energy getting lost in the suspension. You want all the weight transferring to the rear tires to increase traction.

94 gt: trickflow HCI, longtubes, 75mm tbody, 3.73, vortech s trim @ 11psi, 11.1 AFR 16 degrees timing, 470rwhp Tweecer tuned by Wes @ TPS Performance [ Sold ]
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post #16 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:52 PM
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I was told by people smarter than me that you DON'T actually want the rear to squat. You DO want weight to transfer but if the rear is squating a lot, then the suspension is taking the force of the weight that's transferring instead of the tires. You want all the weight on the tires for traction.

1.578-60'
7.27 @ 98.68-1/8
11.304 @ 122.06-1/4

This is with the Griggs TA/PHB, Kmember/Aarms but NOT with the SLA and I had some softer coilovers up front but I don't know that they helped. I couldn't get the car at a good ride height with them so although I they were softer, the front was extremely low/raked, not good for drag racing.

28" Hoosier quick time pros on the rear with Hoosier skinnies on the front.

Tires do make a HUGE difference. I need to go more, this was my first time using these tires and that was just a 3500rpm launch.

Best with 17" 315 BFG drag radials...

1.708-60'
7.5 @ 94-1/8
11.55 @ 123-1/4

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post #17 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:55 PM
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FWIW, the fastest drag radial car or whatever that class is uses a torque arm suspension style.

As for my launching technique.... 2nd gear burn out till nothin' but white, shallow stage, hold the pedal almost to the floor so the nitrous doesn't activate , last yellow comes on-drop the clutch mash the gas and hold on! Nothin' like 1000 bottle psi and a 150 extra hp outta tha hole!
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post #18 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:56 PM
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Oh, and I was running NO front sway bar for all those times I posted above.

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post #19 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 07:59 PM
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I was running a Steeda 32mm swaybar.
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post #20 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 09:05 PM
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Yeah I don't think you want any squat. And a T/A can get up around the 100% anti squat range (I think). I believe that the only time you really would want squat is when you have way too much power for the size tires you are running and you need the suspension to waste a little bit of power initially in order to get a decent bite, but you can still use the HP once you are out of the hole. For everyone else, I think that you are want the tires loaded as much as possible. Either way, I was just commenting on how I think it is weird that some people tune the suspension one way and then the chassis another

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post #21 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 09:08 PM
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hey sage wes just tuned my car too. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.
My goals are pretty much the same. Hope to Autocross it on the 5th at Zephyr.
I want to Autocross it, run some 11's for now 10's wen I buy the Nitrous, and maybe some track days. Will be my daily driver.

Cheaper than VHT and works great.
So sticky it will practically pull your shoes off, just like the movie theater
floor..
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post #22 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 09:28 PM
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Hope to Autocross it on the 5th at Zephyr.
I'm aiming to be there for the same event, should be a good time. It's kind of like two different courses.

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post #23 of 41 Old 03-27-2009, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
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12.5 at 108.
NA time and mph? What car, engine combo/mods, and gears?

Rob
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post #24 of 41 Old 03-28-2009, 01:42 AM
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Car was naturally aspirated at the time. 90 notchback, stock shortblock, GT40p's, N41, Professional Products RPM ripoff intake, 3.55 gears. Car went 12.40 at the same mph on drag radials with the stock four link the year before prior to me seeing the light of turning the steering wheel.

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post #25 of 41 Old 03-28-2009, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Aubele View Post
prior to me seeing the light of turning the steering wheel.
Sounds like a very familiar path......... Nice na trap with those gears.

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post #26 of 41 Old 03-29-2009, 11:14 PM
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Sounds like a very familiar path......... Nice na trap with those gears.
I was thinking the car hooked really well and the trap showed notsomuch hp...but I know a little less than nothing about drag racing, so no flames!
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post #27 of 41 Old 03-30-2009, 12:59 PM
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I have ran

MM coilovers with 425# and 300# springs
no torque arm
17x9s with nitto 555
525rwhp/510rwtq
3.27 rear gear

2.15 60
7.85 @97mph 1/8 mile

2.15 60
12.00 @122 mph 1/4 mile smoked clutch on this run

limiting factor was my tires and size

since then i changed to 17x10.5 rear and nitto nt01's
and 552rwhp/527tq

and i am adding a torque arm now

im guess now 7.5's//11.5's on with this setup in road race setup

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post #28 of 41 Old 03-31-2009, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tigerdrvr View Post
I was thinking the car hooked really well and the trap showed notsomuch hp...but I know a little less than nothing about drag racing, so no flames!
Well, actually your thinking is correct. I should have added, "and et with those gears." I was impressed with the mph for what seemed like a relatively mild combo. So contrary to what you may think, you do know alot more than ............nothing.

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post #29 of 41 Old 03-31-2009, 10:02 PM
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low rebound front/high rebound back
Is this what you should do for drag racing if you have adjustable struts/shocks? Soft rebound in front and stiff rebound out back?

I like where this is going because I've wanted to ask some of these questions to the open track and autox guys but never thought to start a "drag racing for the corner carver" thread.

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post #30 of 41 Old 03-31-2009, 11:00 PM
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Is this what you should do for drag racing if you have adjustable struts/shocks? Soft rebound in front and stiff rebound out back?

I like where this is going because I've wanted to ask some of these questions to the open track and autox guys but never thought to start a "drag racing for the corner carver" thread.

I have absolutely no real idea. My thinking was that rebound in the back would help control wheelhop or the tires loading/unloading, while less rebound in the front would allow the front end to come up quicker.
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post #31 of 41 Old 04-01-2009, 06:40 PM
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That would be correct. I ran full soft up front (rebound), and my rear shocks were MM bils, so no adjustment there. Jaysch302, get that 60 down below 1.8 and you'll be in the 10's. FWIW, I ran 11.7 at 115 in my Dad's underpowered Superformance cobra on V700's with a 1.60 60 foot. Weight distribution helped quite a bit!

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post #32 of 41 Old 04-02-2009, 01:20 AM
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For anyone that wants to learn about the physics of a drag race launch, I suggest going to Bill Shoeppe's website, http://www.shopeshop.org/contentsDrag.htm When you read this site, resist the urge to jump to chapter XX that looks cool. You must start at the beginning and read through almost everything. If you don't, you aren't going to understand what he is talking about, since he teaches vehicle dynamics. Everything has a very precise meaning. If you jump ahead, you won't learn the precise meanings.

It is by far the best website on the subject that I have ever seen. The 2nd place websites have some good information, but then stick in a bunch of stuff that tries to rewrite the laws of physics and turns the site into junk.

Bill's website is very good, but not perfect. My biggest complaint is that he doesn't explain any of the basic relationships governing some of the forces and motions involved. Much of the stuff is plugged directly into a calculator so the user can calculate the resulting value, but they don't learn as much since the math is missing, they don't understand the underlying relationship. I assume this is because Bill expects that the reader will already know most of these very basic relationships and therefore the math involved.

A couple general things about a drag race launch. Most of this is covered on Bill's website, but I think it bears restatement since it is so important.

To get the most forward grip from the rear tires during launch, you need the maximum percentage of the vehicles weight on them and EACH tire should have the same weight on it. The first part is accomplished by getting the cg of the vehicle as high as possible and as far back as possible. The second part is usually accomplished by having very little front roll stiffness (soft springs, soft swaybar) and high rear roll stiffness (stiff swaybar). The result of this roll stiffness difference is that the driveshaft torque doesn't make the rear tire loads as much unequal as they would be with a normal roll stiffness distribution. More equal rear tire loads, equals more grip. More grip equals more potential for acceleration. Note that the term "weight transfer" didn't show up at all in the second part. This leads me to the second most important thing to consider.

If a drag racer uses the term "weight transfer" in a sentence, close your ears. The odds are better than 90% that the statement is false.

Shock and strut settings. Bill barely discusses these at all. Generally, you do want the front rebound to be set very soft and the front compression to be set somewhat stiff. The soft rebound setting does allow the engine torque to raise the front of the car higher since it is lifting less of the front unsprung weight, but only on a dynamic basis. The higher the cg of the car, the more weight is transferred to the rear tires. In general you want somewhat stiff front compression settings to keep the cg of the car high in the air. However, there are two problems with this. One, it increases air resistance. Two, it increases transient front roll stiffness, which causes more unequal rear tire loading and therefore reduced total grip.

Rear shock settings are more complicated. The rear shock must be set stiff enough to keep wheel hop from occurring. Whether wheel hop occurs is a function of the type of rear suspension, the amount and directions of compliance in it, the characteristics of the tire sidewall, the rear spring rate and the unsprung weight of the rear suspension. If you have wheel hop, you usually need to increase the compression damping. If your compression or rebound damping is too high, the engine torque will get delivered to the tires too quickly and then will start spinning. If you reduce the compression and rebound settings, the engine torque will be delivered to the tires more gradually. More of the initial torque impulse will go into compressing the suspension. The same applies for rear spring rate. The stiffer spring will increase the rate at which engine torque is delivered to the rear tires. Vehicles with small tires/limited traction and high engine power will need softer rear suspensions to slow the delivery of torque to the rear tires.

Jack Hidley
Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

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post #33 of 41 Old 04-02-2009, 08:32 AM
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Wow. Great stuff!

Thanks Jack

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post #34 of 41 Old 04-26-2009, 07:02 PM
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BTW, some of you guys are pretty fast. I just got back from my first drag racing experience. I need mo' powa and less wheel hop.

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post #35 of 41 Old 04-26-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2k2GT View Post
Thats my kind of "street car". It kinda makes me laugh when I see all the cars with the "slinky spring suspension" out there running slower. Yes I know alot are faster than me, but I just don't ever see me wanting a car that looks like it couldn't take a right turn at 40mph without rolling over.


In the defense of some of those slower car... If they were running a 150 shot they would run mid tens with 1.3 60' times. It sound like you have a fun car but to each his own. I wouldn't be laughing at anybody with that time on a 150 shot. I went 11.66 on a "B" spring suspension. With a stock long block.
Easy Tiger! You have a nice car but don't get crazy.

If some of you guys want to check out a website that explains the basics. check out www.baselinesuspensions.com
When you get there check out "Launching a Drag car". Then find the section of anti squat and instant center. After that check out the shock section. It will all make sense.
I think it's great you guys want a all around car. It's a tough thing to do. I would love to do what you guys do sometimes but I'm already committed to my thing and that includes not taking turns at 40+ MPH. I also do not like people getting too close to me at over 100 MPH. LOL

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