why street tires > R-comps!!! (about my PDX at NJMP) - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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why street tires > R-comps!!! (about my PDX at NJMP)

did a PDX with SCCA at NJMP's lightning bolt course yesterday. very fun track by the way. i was in the advanced group with about 20 cars. i think me, and a guy and an SRT8 Charger were the only ones on street tires. the only people i had to give a pint by to were 2 Z06's, and a dude in a worked EVO 8. now this was my 4th track day ever, and u had to have 2 or more to be in my run group, and my car has very minimal mods. pretty much a 275 front, 315 rear tires, steeda springs, and steeda hd front and adjustable rear bar, exhaust and TB, and battery in the trunk. there were M3's, some Porches, some STIs, S2000's, and a 2000 Cobra R (only for one session tho). now i know its not racing, but i would think these cars, on R-comps, would catch up to me and i'd have to give them a point by. no matter where i started in the field i would catch them, or if i started in front of them, wouldn't see them the rest of the session.

so basically why street tires are better then R-comps,(in a sense), i show up to the track, check my cold tire pressures, and im ready to go. no swapping tires before and after, and bringing the tools to do it. its not like its time trials or anything. and i was quicker then almost anyone there. whats the deal? i just found it strange. just wanted to share.


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post #2 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 10:28 AM
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SCCA puts 2-day experience in the Advanced group now? Wow.

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post #3 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 10:33 AM
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Maybe that particular event was heavy on novices and they needed to spread the numbers out some?
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post #4 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 11:42 AM
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What street tires are you using????

On a side note to the comments above I was moved to solo on the second day of my second HPDE with NASA, went to group 3 as instructed for my third and fourth events, and given the go ahead to run group 4 or TT from there. I guess the number of events don't always dictate one's ability to perform safely.

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post #5 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 11:54 AM
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I would take a wild guess and say tires had absolutely nothing to do with it. Maybe do a time trial and you may see a slightly different outcome...

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post #6 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 02:22 PM
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What street tires are you using????

On a side note to the comments above I was moved to solo on the second day of my second HPDE with NASA, went to group 3 as instructed for my third and fourth events, and given the go ahead to run group 4 or TT from there. I guess the number of events don't always dictate one's ability to perform safely.
And everyone gets a drivers license when they're 16 as long as they don't hit anything during the test, but it's no measure of the experience that makes all the difference in the world when #### hits the fan. As a matter of policy I'd damn sure want people to have more than 2 track days before putting them in any group I'd be willing to call "advanced".
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post #7 of 24 Old 03-22-2009, 04:49 PM
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I remember being a newbie track retard (not saying anyone on this board is). There is a reason they all put us together, because we are bumbling idiots
(ie shifting, braking, proper point-byes, safety, etc). Basically after your first day on the track, NASA and SCCA takes you out of the newbie group and puts you into group 2, where then you do 4-8 weekend events before going onto group 3. Group 4(advanced) is usually for well-experienced drivers, no matter what the make is, and group 5 is the instructors. When I am at an event, I tell the track manager I am either a 2-3 and I DON'T go any hirer because there is a difference following somebody with 3-4 tack day experiences than considered an "advanced" group session. My advice, go at your own pace, DO NOT go higher just so you can tell everyone else you were "advanced" after 4 track days. Whether this was your situation or not, like MFE says, when #### hits the fan it happens real quick. The more HP you have, the usually more trouble.

And lastly, street tires will NEVER be better as track tires, its physically impossible.
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post #8 of 24 Old 03-23-2009, 07:48 AM
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And lastly, street tires will NEVER be better as track tires in good shape, its physically impossible.
FTFY.
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post #9 of 24 Old 03-23-2009, 09:27 AM
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And lastly, street tires will NEVER be better as track tires, its physically impossible.
the thing about absolute statements is that they're almost always false.

I've been faster on street tires than plenty of cars on R-comps. Generally, those drivers were slow, though.

I will agree, though, that R-comps, everything else being equal (same car, same driver, same track, same day,) are perhaps 3% faster per lap.

They are more difficult to learn on, however. Street tires are MUCH more communicative, and more forgiving than R-comps are.

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post #10 of 24 Old 03-23-2009, 11:01 AM
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I've been faster on streets than many people on R-comps too, but I'm not faster on streets than *I* am on R-comps.

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post #11 of 24 Old 03-23-2009, 05:27 PM
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I've been faster on streets than many people on R-comps too, but I'm not faster on streets than *I* am on R-comps.

Bingo.
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post #12 of 24 Old 03-23-2009, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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i know R comps are better from a racing view, but we were just doing a regular plain old PDX with no times.

and who ever asked what tires im using, Sumitomo HTRZ II's on the front and HTRZ's on the back. about the cheapest tires i could find but they are pretty soft with a 220 and 180 tread wear, respectively.

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post #13 of 24 Old 03-23-2009, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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I would take a wild guess and say tires had absolutely nothing to do with it. Maybe do a time trial and you may see a slightly different outcome...
i would love to set my car up to do TT's, but i dont have the experience for them to let me do that, as well as the $$. ill get there someday.

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post #14 of 24 Old 03-24-2009, 02:08 AM
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You could've been pushing your car more than they did theres aswell. If I had say a GT or a Vector and t wasnt actually a race like you said. I wouldnt really be racing.

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post #15 of 24 Old 03-24-2009, 12:11 PM
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How were those Sumitomos? I'm probably going to need a new set of tires by the end of the season and I have a hard time of justifying $1000 in tires to the wife.

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post #16 of 24 Old 03-24-2009, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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How were those Sumitomos? I'm probably going to need a new set of tires by the end of the season and I have a hard time of justifying $1000 in tires to the wife.
they honestly arent that bad at all. u cant really argue with the price either.

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post #17 of 24 Old 03-24-2009, 08:01 PM
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I'm sure the OP doesn't mean that r comps are actually better than street tires but is instead saying that the ability to drive to the track and on the track with the same set of tires, while going faster than others with superior setups is cool. Of course if someone with better equipment and car than you in on R comps and you are beating them, they are either a bad driver or intentionally driving slow.

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post #18 of 24 Old 03-25-2009, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by loudnslow98gt View Post
i know R comps are better from a racing view, but we were just doing a regular plain old PDX with no times.

and who ever asked what tires im using, Sumitomo HTRZ II's on the front and HTRZ's on the back. about the cheapest tires i could find but they are pretty soft with a 220 and 180 tread wear, respectively.

Tread wear of 100 or less is a soft tire. 220 or 180 is a mileage tire, IMO.

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post #19 of 24 Old 03-25-2009, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Tread wear of 100 or less is a soft tire. 220 or 180 is a mileage tire, IMO.
not when u go from all season BFG KDWS's with a tread wear of 400. they were on my car for almost 5 years. thats a mileage tire.

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post #20 of 24 Old 03-26-2009, 12:02 AM
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i would love to set my car up to do TT's, but i dont have the experience for them to let me do that, as well as the $$. ill get there someday.
By "them", do you mean SCCA? I'm sure they treat a TT as a Solo I event, which as the hill climb guys know, requires all the safety equipment the same as club racing. Maybe I'm way off base here, but there may be other clubs that run a PDE and/or a TT event. What about NASA? Years ago I ran a few TT's at Lime Rock with a NY or Conn. based club without the full blown safety requirements. But, that was many moons ago.....things do change.

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post #21 of 24 Old 03-26-2009, 02:26 PM
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time trials don't require any more safety equipment than a pdx/hpde, though, they should. scca runs autox style (never racing with another car nearby), but nasa is wheel to wheel racing and should definitely employ more safety equipment rules.

aas for the tire question...here it is in a nutshell. you ran on a sub 60degree day, presumably? r compounds really can't bite much harder than street tires on colder days. they just cant get up to their optimum heat range. along with that fact is that i believe less of the really fast people sign up in the fall and early spring because they know they can't go as fast...IMHO.

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post #22 of 24 Old 03-26-2009, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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time trials don't require any more safety equipment than a pdx/hpde, though, they should. scca runs autox style (never racing with another car nearby), but nasa is wheel to wheel racing and should definitely employ more safety equipment rules.

aas for the tire question...here it is in a nutshell. you ran on a sub 60degree day, presumably? r compounds really can't bite much harder than street tires on colder days. they just cant get up to their optimum heat range. along with that fact is that i believe less of the really fast people sign up in the fall and early spring because they know they can't go as fast...IMHO.
all very good points. and i though TT required some safety equipment. the cool thing about doing TT's with NASA is they have a class for any car, no matter what it is and what is done to it. they just use a points ladder system. the more mods, the more points. the number of points is the class u run.

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post #23 of 24 Old 03-26-2009, 09:45 PM
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and i though TT required some safety equipment.
It does, if you run a SAAC Solo I event in, lets say ESP, you do need all the safety equipment.

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post #24 of 24 Old 03-27-2009, 12:55 AM
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It does, if you run a SAAC Solo I event in, lets say ESP, you do need all the safety equipment.
Yes, in the SCCA you need pretty much everything you do in club racing except you can have a rollbar instead of a cage. I ran a time trail with Redline track events that required nothing but a seatbelt and helmet, with OPEN passing! They tried to make it so noone caught anyone, which worked most of the time.

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