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post #1 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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My Underpowered AIX car.

I have been "finishing" this project for over a year now but I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I have run Extreme with this car before but the bar has been raised and I'm trying to keep up.

The plan so far is a FRPP Aluminator:



FRPP ported 4 valve heads:



FRPP cams, FRPP Whipple kit.



A new seat.



New Paint.



Got the radiator mounted:




New fuel rails:



I plan to run it on E85 and make around 650 RWHP with room to turn it up from there.
I still have a lot of work to do so I should have plenty of updates and pictures.

Greg


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post #2 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 03:00 PM
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It should be a contender....

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post #3 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 03:07 PM
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looking good!!

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post #4 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 04:17 PM
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whipple

You should think long and hard about using a whipple (or any other supercharger) in a road race car. Just a friendly suggestion...

particularly non-stock 99 Cobra w/brand C motor...
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post #5 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 04:39 PM
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+1 on the whipple heat soak ftl


What quarter panels are those?


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post #6 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 05:12 PM
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I am interested in seeing how the engine develops and how you plan on keeping it cool especially with the whipple. I am brainstorming ideas for a powerplant upgrade and I am not sure what route to go yet. A supercharger would be an easy way to get the horsepower, but what are you doing to cool everything down. I would imagine a roots style supercharger especially challenging to cool. Are you planning on meth injection? Also why is the radiator mounted in the trunk?

It is always cool to see a true race car being shown in this forum.

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post #7 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 05:57 PM
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very nice, im curious as to how or what youre using for airflow through the radiator. neat setup!

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post #8 of 70 Old 02-12-2009, 08:05 PM
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re-read the specs guys. E85 car. I wouldn't be surprised if he had to run a cooling restriction to get it up to normal temp unless he's leaning on it hard.....
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post #9 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 04:51 AM
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Thumbs up

awesome build--more info and pics! what suspension? i guess a move up to 315s is in your future with those quarter and fender flares!?

Must keep making progress
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post #10 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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+1 on the whipple heat soak ftl


What quarter panels are those?

They are Maier Racing fenders. http://www.maierracing.com/

JW33 is right, I'm planing on the E85 being a big help in cooling the motor and the blower.

To a certain extent, the Whipple is like any other machine that generates heat. If you size the cooling system properly you can maintain a reasonable temperature. I think superchargers have gotten a bad name in road course applications because the systems that have been used were not designed to operate in those conditions.

You wouldn't expect your stock radiator to keep your race engine cool so why would you expect your stock heat exchanger to keep your supercharger cool? The same could be said about the water pump. A lot of people replace their water pump when they go racing. How can you expect a stock intercooler pump that flows something like 10GPM to keep up under race conditions?

I'm sure it will take some testing to get everything right but I see no reason that I shouldn't be able to maintain acceptable IAT temps.

Greg


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post #11 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 09:44 AM
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what electronics will be running that motor?

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post #12 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 10:16 AM
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I can't speak for E85. New territory for me but....

I have been down the road of supercharging a road race car. huge radiator, huge oil cooler, ducting to all manners of cooling devices. The bottom line: The supercharger will simply accumulate heat throughout the session. The intercooler will do the same. Unless you have a ginormous amout of fluid to accumulate the heat you will see a power drop-off after X amount of laps. All this cooling will be heavy (hoses, heat exchangers,brackets, fittings, pumps).

I did try methanol injection (similar effect as using E85). Nice power boost. Wonderful throttle response. As a result I drove the car harder. Same long term result. Heat, power drop-off.

Build cubes, not boost...

Cool project anyway.


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They are Maier Racing fenders. http://www.maierracing.com/

JW33 is right, I'm planing on the E85 being a big help in cooling the motor and the blower.

To a certain extent, the Whipple is like any other machine that generates heat. If you size the cooling system properly you can maintain a reasonable temperature. I think superchargers have gotten a bad name in road course applications because the systems that have been used were not designed to operate in those conditions.

You wouldn't expect your stock radiator to keep your race engine cool so why would you expect your stock heat exchanger to keep your supercharger cool? The same could be said about the water pump. A lot of people replace their water pump when they go racing. How can you expect a stock intercooler pump that flows something like 10GPM to keep up under race conditions?

I'm sure it will take some testing to get everything right but I see no reason that I shouldn't be able to maintain acceptable IAT temps.

Greg

particularly non-stock 99 Cobra w/brand C motor...

Last edited by serpentnoir; 02-13-2009 at 10:18 AM.
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post #13 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 11:59 AM
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Good info Serpentnoir

I am still curious about E85. I have noticed that some are switching over to it, and I am a bit surprised to find out the engines run cooler using it. How much cooler are we talking? For the most part, the engine is still built the same as any other gas engine, and so there is a specific window of heat that it needs to run so that it doesn't destroy itself.

Is the radiator in the trunk because it is harder to heat up? Are there any plans to increase compression because you are using E85?

I don't know too many racecars switching over to E85, and I am sure there are many more that are interested in finding out more about it.
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post #14 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Build cubes, not boost...
To some extent I agree with you but I work at Modular Depot not Windsor Depot.

I do plan on the E85 being a big help along with what should be an oversized radiator.

Quote:
The bottom line: The supercharger will simply accumulate heat throughout the session. The intercooler will do the same.
The supercharger will reach an operating temperature that should be determined somewhat by the cooling capacity of the heat exchanger.

If you couldn't keep your combo cool you didn't have enough cooling capacity. I don't see that as too dificult of a problem to fix.
Increase flow and surface area of the heat exchanger until you can maintain the temp you want.

Yes it will add weight and complexity but again, why would I do it the easy way?

This may not be the best way to make 700 RWHP for a road race car but it's the route I have chose to take and I'll have to figure it out.

Greg

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post #15 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 01:10 PM
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Are you going to have the stock water pump? Any ideas how the rear mounted radiator will affect water flow ?

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post #16 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 01:44 PM
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Great timing on this thread as I was looking all over for some rear mounted radiator pics. Score! Great looking project.
What are your plans for running the plumbing to the rear? Fan? Other cooling ideas? Any top shots of the mount, etc etc....
Thanks

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post #17 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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Are you going to have the stock water pump? Any ideas how the rear mounted radiator will affect water flow ?
I'm not 100% decided on the water pump yet. I'm going back and forth between a Evans mechanical pump, a Davis Craig electric, http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47
or both.

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post #18 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Great timing on this thread as I was looking all over for some rear mounted radiator pics. Score! Great looking project.
What are your plans for running the plumbing to the rear? Fan? Other cooling ideas? Any top shots of the mount, etc etc....
Thanks
I plan to run rigid aluminum tubing as much as I can. I need to get the engine in then see what is going to be the best way to route it.
I'm looking at running a couple 11" fans on the area behind the bumper and running ducts from the top and bottom into the front of the radiator.
I'll try to get some more pictures for you this weekend.

Greg

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post #19 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 03:09 PM
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You can try making ducts coming in from the quarter glass area.

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post #20 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modular Depot View Post
I plan to run rigid aluminum tubing as much as I can. I need to get the engine in then see what is going to be the best way to route it.
I'm looking at running a couple 11" fans on the area behind the bumper and running ducts from the top and bottom into the front of the radiator.
I'll try to get some more pictures for you this weekend.

Greg
Sweet, thanks Greg. I love Mustangs that use crazy ideas like yours.

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post #21 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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You can try making ducts coming in from the quarter glass area.
That's at least part of the plan.
I'm still deciding what is going to give me the most flow for the least drag.

Anyone have a knowledgeable opinion on forcing any and all air that comes in through the open windows out through the radiator?
I remember hearing stories of improperly installed rear windows being blown out due to the pressure that builds up in a car that has the windows down.
Is it a bad idea to try to use that air also?

Greg

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Last edited by Modular Depot; 02-13-2009 at 04:03 PM.
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post #22 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
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That's at least part of the plan.
I'm still deciding what is going to give me the most flow for the least drag.

Anyone have a knowledgeable opinion on forcing any and all air that comes in through the open windows out through the radiator?
I remember hearing stories of improperly installed rear windows being blown out due to the pressure that builds up in a car that has the windows down.
Is it a bad idea to try to use that air also?

Greg
I've seen a few back windows blow out at the drags. I think that is from the side windows being open. I'm not sure about the notch quarter windows and how much air you get there. Some NASA style ducts might help suck/pull air in.

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post #23 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
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Anyone have a knowledgeable opinion on forcing any and all air that comes in through the open windows out through the radiator?
I'd try the roof. Check MR2's and 911's ... cars with rear engines have to pass the air to the back of the car.

Not as big as this, but it will give you an idea

http://images1.fotki.com/v290/photos...SCN0174-vi.jpg

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post #24 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I've seen a few back windows blow out at the drags. I think that is from the side windows being open. I'm not sure about the notch quarter windows and how much air you get there. Some NASA style ducts might help suck/pull air in.

I have to run with the windows open so I should have no shortage of air in the car.

Greg

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post #25 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 05:40 PM
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This post gets more interesting the more I read. Heat is definitely going to be the enemy of this project. It also looks kind of dangerous. One good hit from the rear and hot coolant will be flying through the cockpit.

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post #26 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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This post gets more interesting the more I read. Heat is definitely going to be the enemy of this project. It also looks kind of dangerous. One good hit from the rear and hot coolant will be flying through the cockpit.
Well, now that you bring that up, that is a good reason not to use the air from the passenger windows. A bulkhead with ducting running through it would be a much better idea.


Quote:
what electronics will be running that motor?
Stock electronics for now. A Fast or Big Stuff would be nice but it just isn't in the budget right now.

Greg

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post #27 of 70 Old 02-13-2009, 07:46 PM
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Some tips on rear radiators....

-I used thinwall aluminum tubing the first time. Easy to put a bead on, but too thin to bend, leading to more connections. (Bad IMO) Still worked OK for several seasons.

-Second time, I used 1.5" exhaust pipe. You can bend this with your tubing bender. I didn't do any beads to hold the hoses on, but you could with a weld bead around there if you wanted. My hoses without beads, but two clams each, have stayed put no problem for several seasons. A lot of other stuff shook loose in that same time...

-Make sure as much of the tubing is as low as possible in the car. My original setup using the straight aluminum tubing ran almost a straight shot from firewall to radiator. The pipe was at least 6 inches below the highest point, but turns still caused occasional air pockets to appear and made the initial fill a complete bear.

Second time, tubes ran along the floor. Bleeding problems gone.

-You can use any water pump. Obviously, you'd want a better pump for road racing than a street pump, but the point is that any pump makes enough volume to work. I went from a stock engine driven pump to a Moroso electric drive on said stock pump to a CSI electric. All worked fine.

-Put a schrader valve in the lower tube up by the engine. Remove valve when filling until your toes get wet. Then replace.

- If your radiator still has a cap, make sure that one is really high pressure and that the vent is capped so they don't fight each other. I use a Longacre 26# on the radiator and a standard 18# on the front filler, where the overflow is.

Hope this helps. I only autocrossed this car, so I have no input on airflow or issues with wrecking and breaking the tubes.

Because of the volume of water, temp changes are very slow. I had trouble getting my car to warm up enough idling and usually had to drive around the pits to get enough water (and oil) temp.

For a track application, I would mostly be worried about air flow. I think you could be careful with pipe construction and keep joints out of the passenger compartment, which would fix the "getting bumped" problem.

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post #28 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 06:26 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you Dave. That's very helpful information.
Do you have any pictures of your setup?

Greg

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post #29 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 08:17 AM
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Not too many pics of that.

Here is one of the front on V1 (alum tubes)



Back view



For whatever reason, I don't have any photos of V2 with the exhaust tubing. I guess it was old hat by then and I didn't care.

I will use exhaust tubing on the new car, btw. I am probably switching back to an engine driven water pump, just for pulley fitment issues (I need to drive the alternator off the water pump pulley)

HTH,

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post #30 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 09:19 AM
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u guys got some interesting stuff going on. keep the pics coming.

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post #31 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 10:40 AM
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That's not interesting, this is interesting....

http://photos.samanthawhitworth.com/v/EM_Car/

Teaser:





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post #32 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 02:04 PM
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Any thoughts on using CPVC piping? I could have my plumber come over and rig something up (is serious).

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post #33 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
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Any thoughts on using CPVC piping? I could have my plumber come over and rig something up (is serious).
I don't know. I looked at both CPVC and copper pipe and decided against becuse I didn't have enough information on the joints and how to make them and how to make them strong enough for the use. I assume the information is out there on using either type in high heat, high pressure situations, but the vibration also is an issue.

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post #34 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 02:54 PM
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I think the CPVC would work fine but good point on the vibration. That might be an issue. Maybe some type of marine application would fit the bill.
But then the ol' exhaust pipe is a great idea also.

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post #35 of 70 Old 02-14-2009, 07:19 PM
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dave w, it looks like the lower shock mount was lowered, and a mini tub. what is the top mount attached to. looks good.
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