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post #1 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 05:08 AM Thread Starter
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Innovate widebands :(

If you had to replace either the wideband sensor or the gauge answer the questions below. This has nothing to do with the Pro-M EMS because there are numerous threads online about Innovate widebands failing.

1. How many Innovate wideband sensors have you replaced:
1a. Driver side wideband: (2) MTX-L and (0) MTX-L Plus
1b. Passenger side wideband: (6) MTX-L and (1) MTX-L Plus

2. How many Innovate gauges have you replaced and type:
2a. Passenger side gauge: (2) MTX-L

3. Have you replaced Innovate with another wideband company?
3a Not yet

Thanks
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post #2 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
If you had to replace either the wideband sensor or the gauge answer the questions below. This has nothing to do with the Pro-M EMS because there are numerous threads online about Innovate widebands failing.



1. How many Innovate wideband sensors have you replaced:

1a. Driver side wideband: (2) MTX-L and (0) MTX-L Plus

1b. Passenger side wideband: (6) MTX-L and (1) MTX-L Plus



2. How many Innovate gauges have you replaced and type:

2a. Passenger side gauge: (2) MTX-L



3. Have you replaced Innovate with another wideband company?

3a Not yet



Thanks

Michael Plummer


1) 5 sets using MTX-L Plus

2) 1 set (driver and pass.)

3) AEM

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post #3 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 08:15 AM
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This was the Innovate DLG-1 kit:

I had to replace 4 sensors within a few weeks after installing my standalone. Then I had to replace 6 sensors in the first two days of being on the dyno when they failed within 15 minutes of startup while warming up on the dyno. This same week I bought two more and sold the kit. The person that bought it had these two brand new ones go bad within the first day so I dropped shipped two more to him..

So that's about 14 sensors in about a two month time period.

The moment I replaced the Innovate with two AFX units I never had a single issue.

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post #4 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 10:30 AM
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Sorry for not following the format of the request. I haven't purchased or installed one on my personal vehicles for obvious reasons but have tuned almost a dozen vehicles with problematic innovate controllers (LC1, LC2, and MTX-L). All were replaced with AEM, PLX, Autometer, and one with a Ballenger, which all worked fine.
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post #5 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
If you had to replace either the wideband sensor or the gauge answer the questions below. This has nothing to do with the Pro-M EMS because there are numerous threads online about Innovate widebands failing.

1. How many Innovate wideband sensors have you replaced:
1a. Driver side wideband: (2) MTX-L and (0) MTX-L Plus
1b. Passenger side wideband: (6) MTX-L and (1) MTX-L Plus

2. How many Innovate gauges have you replaced and type:
2a. Passenger side gauge: (2) MTX-L

3. Have you replaced Innovate with another wideband company?
3a Not yet

Thanks
Michael Plummer
1. 0
2. Replaced 2 of the DLG-1 display / controller units. This was the display for the drivers side both times.
3. Changed to a Zeitronix ZT-4 dual wideband controller and external dual display. Working flawlessly so far.

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post #6 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Those of you that have replaced Innovate with another brand was that with the Pro-M EMS?

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post #7 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
Those of you that have replaced Innovate with another brand was that with the Pro-M EMS?



Thanks

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Yep
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post #8 of 59 Old 09-09-2019, 09:28 PM
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Those of you that have replaced Innovate with another brand was that with the Pro-M EMS?

Thanks
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Yes. Running the Zeitronix dual wideband setup with the Pro-M EFI. Dual single gauge display as well.

Zeitronix Zt-4Dual AFR Wideband Controller

Anyone wanna buy my DLG-1 complete setup with brand new wideband O2 sensors?

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post #9 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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Do the AEM and Zeitronix use the same Bosch LSU 4.9 wideband O2 sensor?

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post #10 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 05:28 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EDS_5_OH View Post
Anyone wanna buy my DLG-1 complete setup with brand new wideband O2 sensors?
No thank you, I've had enough of this hot garbage called Innovate Motorsports wideband.

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post #11 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
Do the AEM and Zeitronix use the same Bosch LSU 4.9 wideband O2 sensor?



Thanks

Michael Plummer


Yes they do, although I canít explain how they treat the sensors differently. I swapped to AEM some ~6 months ago and havenít had a problem since then, whereas before the sensors would last maybe 100 miles.
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post #12 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 08:24 AM
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Those of you that have replaced Innovate with another brand was that with the Pro-M EMS?

Thanks
Michael Plummer
Nope, tuning a different system that accepts the analog inputs. This was definitely a problem with the wideband controllers and not the ems, all 11 times.
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post #13 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
Do the AEM and Zeitronix use the same Bosch LSU 4.9 wideband O2 sensor?

Thanks
Michael Plummer
Yes, same LSU 4.9 sensor. In fact, I'm running the O2 sensors that came with my Innovative kit with the Zeitronix controller and gauge. Kept the 2 new sensors that came with the Zeitronix for spares.

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post #14 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_5_OH View Post
Yes, same LSU 4.9 sensor. In fact, I'm running the O2 sensors that came with my Innovative kit with the Zeitronix controller and gauge. Kept the 2 new sensors that came with the Zeitronix for spares.


After my fiasco I have spares on the shelf as well!
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post #15 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 03:35 PM
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1. Working on my 3rd set in 2500 miles

2. Zero, thankfully

3. No, looking at the zietronix unit though

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post #16 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 03:52 PM
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post #17 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 04:27 PM
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every innovate ive ever had failed

never an issue with the aem
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post #18 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 05:49 PM
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How many Innovative wide bands have I replaced.

1 - 3 times

1a - 3 times


and they have been out for 6 months now I just cant get myself to buy them again.

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post #19 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 07:52 PM
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Although heat is some of the issue, it's interesting that many of us switched to a different wideband controller using the exact same sensor and had the problems go away. My issues were not with the sensors failing but the integrated wideband controller/ gauge combo of the DLG-1

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post #20 of 59 Old 09-10-2019, 11:43 PM
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Are you referring to the bosch or ntk sensor? I have only replaced them after a head gasket failure. You can buy them at autozone the cheapest.
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post #21 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 04:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_5_OH View Post
Although heat is some of the issue, it's interesting that many of us switched to a different wideband controller using the exact same sensor and had the problems go away. My issues were not with the sensors failing but the integrated wideband controller/ gauge combo of the DLG-1
I agree with heat being an issue and you're correct many people have switched wideband controllers using the same Bosch sensor (LSU 4.2 and LSU 4.9) with great success. Personally, I'm not sure which direction to go in as of yet.

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post #22 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 05:07 AM Thread Starter
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I'm working with my friend John to find a replacement wideband setup for our cars because he's on his 4th failure of Innovate widebands. He found this breakdown below on different wideband sensors. Granted this is someone's opinion but it is interesting information none the less.

1. Bosch LSU 4.2 Sensor: This is the sensor NGK packaged with the Powerdex AFX in 2010 and earlier. A solid sensor previously used in the majority of aftermarket wideband and many OEM vehicle applications. The Bosch LSU 4.2 is being phased out in favor of the LSU 4.9 in most applications.

2. Bosch LSU 4.9 Sensor: An updated version of the Bosch 4.2 sensor redesigned for greater reliability in some applications. As other aftermarket systems have matured, they adopted this sensor later in their development cycle. This has given many the impression that this sensor is far better than the 4.2, while it simply showcases how poor many competing aftermarket systems were in their Bosch sensor control. As production is shifting to this sensor, the Bosch LSU 4.9 will become our standard Bosch sensor offering.

3. Production Grade NTK Sensor: This is the sensor NGK packaged with the Powerdex AFX in 2010 and later. Newer and lower cost than the Calibration Grade NTK Sensor, this sensor offers the benefits of the NTK architecture at a reduced price.

4. Calibration Grade NTK Sensor: This is a more robust and slightly more accurate NTK sensor typically used in higher-end systems. The reputation of the NTK sensor was largely built upon this sensor.

5. Lab Grade NTK Sensor: This is a highly accurate NTK sensor used previously only in systems costing $1500 or more


Q. Is the NTK sensor better than the Bosch sensor?

A. In some cases, yes. For leaded fuel, for periodic moisture, or contaminant exposure the NTK sensor family clearly demonstrates superior performance. Many tuners have reported thousands of dyno hours on NTK sensors with leaded fuel while the Bosch sensors die quickly with lead. No sensor is immune from poor tuning however and a rich misfiring and exhaust backfiring engine can damage even the most expensive sensor in a matter of minutes. For a casual street user on pump gas, there is a less discernible advantage for the higher cost sensors.

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post #23 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 05:27 AM Thread Starter
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Chris Richards reached out to me yesterday and he's willing to help. Once John and I find a wideband setup we like, we'll supply Chris with the information so that the calibration file can be set up properly to work with them. Just to be fair, I like the customer service I'm getting from Pro-M Racing and his concern over the issues some of us are having is welcoming.

In closing, I wanted to point out Chris Richards has been using the same Innovate widebands in three or four of his family's vehicles over 8 years. During that time he had one bad MTX-L controller and not one sensor. Honestly, I wish all of us could have the same success rate but we don't.

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post #24 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 06:20 AM
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Haven't had any issues yet, but I'll be following along just in case. Always good to have an alternative if need be.

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post #25 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
Chris Richards reached out to me yesterday and he's willing to help. Once John and I find a wideband setup we like, we'll supply Chris with the information so that the calibration file can be set up properly to work with them. Just to be fair, I like the customer service I'm getting from Pro-M Racing and his concern over the issues some of us are having is welcoming.



In closing, I wanted to point out Chris Richards has been using the same Innovate widebands in three or four of his family's vehicles over 8 years. During that time he had one bad MTX-L controller and not one sensor. Honestly, I wish all of us could have the same success rate but we don't.



Thanks

Michael Plummer


Did you reach out to Chris or did Chris reach out to you because of this thread?
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post #26 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 08:16 AM
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I am very interested in this as I am about to begin my Pro-M EMS install soon and would like to avoid a bunch of issues with the DLG-1 wideband setup. If there is something better I would rather go that route from the beginning.
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post #27 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 09:13 AM
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I recently installed my Pro-M EFI with the DLG-1 and haven't had any issues. I only have about 200 miles on everything but a lot of initial starts. That being said I did the relay modification from the beginning that Chris outlined in a previous post. Crossing my fingers and all good info here.

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post #28 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 03:54 PM
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Is all of the issues with the DLG? Are people seeing issues with the MTX-L?
I have had one of my MTX-L setups for probably 6-7 years.

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post #29 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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Did you reach out to Chris or did Chris reach out to you because of this thread?
Chris Richards called me on Sunday about something else and I mentioned it to him then. Then he emailed me yesterday stating he would need the information on the wideband John and I choose about setting it up properly for the calibration file.

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post #30 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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I recently installed my Pro-M EFI with the DLG-1 and haven't had any issues. I only have about 200 miles on everything but a lot of initial starts. That being said I did the relay modification from the beginning that Chris outlined in a previous post. Crossing my fingers and all good info here.
The relay modification helps with thermal shocking the sensor by preventing the sensors from turning on when the key is on and the engine is off. I recently upgraded to the supplemental harness and I have the relay option but I just lost one of my sensors from my new Innovate MTX-L Plus setup which prompted me to start this thread and look for an alternative.

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post #31 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Is all of the issues with the DLG? Are people seeing issues with the MTX-L?
I have had one of my MTX-L setups for probably 6-7 years.
I had all of my issues with the MTX-L and one issue with the new MTX-L setup.

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post #32 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 05:12 PM
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I didn't see it but could've missed it.....is anyone having issues with the DLG-1?

Disregard, just saw that EDS had issues with the DLG-1.

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post #33 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 07:53 PM
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if you're going through WB02 sensors quicker than tires than it's your EGTs that's causing them to burn up and you either need to check and address the EGTs (ideally) or get a heat-sink as these sensors (vw oem bosch) were never designed to take that kind of thermal abuse

https://www.dynotunenitrous.com/stor...?idproduct=158

Heat-Sink Bung Extender (HBX-1) The Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band O2 sensor (shipped as part of the LM-1 kit) is rated to operate at an exhaust gas temperature of < 1300 degrees (F), and a sensor housing temperature of < 900 degrees (measured at the bung) for maximum accuracy and control. When either of these operating temperature ranges is exceeded, the sensor can no longer be accurately controlled. Further, operating at or over these temperatures for any length of time can significantly reduce the lifetime of the sensor. The LM-1 is designed to display an error message under these conditions (currently 08- Sensor Timing Error) rather than provide inaccurate readings. For some turbo vehicles, rotary engines, and other setups, this error message can be encountered with annoying frequency.


if it's not the heat it's probably not your install skills since installing this on the pro-m is pretty dummy proof so i'd also check and clean ALL your grounds.

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post #34 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 08:16 PM
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if you're going through WB02 sensors quicker than tires than it's your EGTs that's causing them to burn up and you either need to check and address the EGTs (ideally) or get a heat-sink as these sensors (vw oem bosch) were never designed to take that kind of thermal abuse

https://www.dynotunenitrous.com/stor...?idproduct=158

Heat-Sink Bung Extender (HBX-1) The Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band O2 sensor (shipped as part of the LM-1 kit) is rated to operate at an exhaust gas temperature of < 1300 degrees (F), and a sensor housing temperature of < 900 degrees (measured at the bung) for maximum accuracy and control. When either of these operating temperature ranges is exceeded, the sensor can no longer be accurately controlled. Further, operating at or over these temperatures for any length of time can significantly reduce the lifetime of the sensor. The LM-1 is designed to display an error message under these conditions (currently 08- Sensor Timing Error) rather than provide inaccurate readings. For some turbo vehicles, rotary engines, and other setups, this error message can be encountered with annoying frequency.


if it's not the heat it's probably not your install skills since installing this on the pro-m is pretty dummy proof so i'd also check and clean ALL your grounds.
So everyone who has burned out their oxy sensors did you see this error that pkstang stated above? Or did they just simply die?
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post #35 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 09:00 PM
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I have had an innovate wideband for year and a half and no issues maybe 2000 miles.
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