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InNOvate widebands :(

58K views 302 replies 49 participants last post by  fastk 
#1 · (Edited)
If you had to replace either the wideband sensor or the gauge answer the questions below. This has nothing to do with the Pro-M EMS because there are numerous threads online about Innovate widebands failing.

1. How many Innovate wideband sensors have you replaced:
1a. Driver side wideband: (2) MTX-L and (0) MTX-L Plus
1b. Passenger side wideband: (6) MTX-L and (1) MTX-L Plus

2. How many Innovate gauges have you replaced and type:
2a. Passenger side gauge: (2) MTX-L

3. Have you replaced Innovate with another wideband company?
3a Not yet

Thanks
Michael Plummer

And we have a happy ending........UPDATED ON 7/14/2021
Okay, I thought long and hard about posting this information because of my bad experience with Innovate wide bands but for the sake of sharing information and giving this thread some closure here it is.

The two major problems.

Problem #1: In Innovate's instructions they tell you to power up the sensors with the ignition switch. Later in those same instructions, they tell you not to start a cold engine after pre-heating the sensors. People are going to leave the key on (listening to the stereo, looking at parameters on their laptop, etc.), and anytime the key is on, the sensor is heating up.....not good. How many people will remember to turn the key off and let the sensors cool before starting the engine? Well, Pro-M fixed that problem with a dedicated power circuit for the widebands that powers up only after the engine starts.

Problem #2: Innovate's failure codes. The way Innovate was dealing with code E8 (heater failure) was not correct. When code E8 was tripped, the controller would stop heating the sensor. Guess what happens to the sensor when you run the engine with an unheated sensor. The irony is that the E8 codes were not usually due to a failed sensor, but in the way, the heater was being controlled. So you'd get code E8 and by the time you got the car home, that good sensor was dead. Install a new sensor and the process repeats.

I should also point out again that the Pro-M EMS works great with whatever wide bands you choose. You do not have to use an Innovate product at all. Contact Chris Richards and he'll set the system up for whatever wide bands you want to use......how easy is that :) And yes I continue to have great results with my Zeitronix wide bands.

FYI, the Pro-M EMS OBD II diagnostics will inform you if you have a wideband problem so whether your wideband has diagnostic capabilities like Innovate or not (like Zeitronix) the Pro-M EMS will tell you if you have a problem.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
 
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#2 ·
If you had to replace either the wideband sensor or the gauge answer the questions below. This has nothing to do with the Pro-M EMS because there are numerous threads online about Innovate widebands failing.



1. How many Innovate wideband sensors have you replaced:

1a. Driver side wideband: (2) MTX-L and (0) MTX-L Plus

1b. Passenger side wideband: (6) MTX-L and (1) MTX-L Plus



2. How many Innovate gauges have you replaced and type:

2a. Passenger side gauge: (2) MTX-L



3. Have you replaced Innovate with another wideband company?

3a Not yet



Thanks

Michael Plummer


1) 5 sets using MTX-L Plus

2) 1 set (driver and pass.)

3) AEM
 
#3 ·
This was the Innovate DLG-1 kit:

I had to replace 4 sensors within a few weeks after installing my standalone. Then I had to replace 6 sensors in the first two days of being on the dyno when they failed within 15 minutes of startup while warming up on the dyno. This same week I bought two more and sold the kit. The person that bought it had these two brand new ones go bad within the first day so I dropped shipped two more to him..

So that's about 14 sensors in about a two month time period.

The moment I replaced the Innovate with two AFX units I never had a single issue.

ks
 
#4 ·
Sorry for not following the format of the request. I haven't purchased or installed one on my personal vehicles for obvious reasons but have tuned almost a dozen vehicles with problematic innovate controllers (LC1, LC2, and MTX-L). All were replaced with AEM, PLX, Autometer, and one with a Ballenger, which all worked fine.
 
#5 ·
If you had to replace either the wideband sensor or the gauge answer the questions below. This has nothing to do with the Pro-M EMS because there are numerous threads online about Innovate widebands failing.

1. How many Innovate wideband sensors have you replaced:
1a. Driver side wideband: (2) MTX-L and (0) MTX-L Plus
1b. Passenger side wideband: (6) MTX-L and (1) MTX-L Plus

2. How many Innovate gauges have you replaced and type:
2a. Passenger side gauge: (2) MTX-L

3. Have you replaced Innovate with another wideband company?
3a Not yet

Thanks
Michael Plummer
1. 0
2. Replaced 2 of the DLG-1 display / controller units. This was the display for the drivers side both times.
3. Changed to a Zeitronix ZT-4 dual wideband controller and external dual display. Working flawlessly so far.
 
#19 ·
Although heat is some of the issue, it's interesting that many of us switched to a different wideband controller using the exact same sensor and had the problems go away. My issues were not with the sensors failing but the integrated wideband controller/ gauge combo of the DLG-1
 
#18 ·
How many Innovative wide bands have I replaced.

1 - 3 times

1a - 3 times


and they have been out for 6 months now I just cant get myself to buy them again.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I'm working with my friend John to find a replacement wideband setup for our cars because he's on his 4th failure of Innovate widebands. He found this breakdown below on different wideband sensors. Granted this is someone's opinion but it is interesting information none the less.

1. Bosch LSU 4.2 Sensor: This is the sensor NGK packaged with the Powerdex AFX in 2010 and earlier. A solid sensor previously used in the majority of aftermarket wideband and many OEM vehicle applications. The Bosch LSU 4.2 is being phased out in favor of the LSU 4.9 in most applications.

2. Bosch LSU 4.9 Sensor: An updated version of the Bosch 4.2 sensor redesigned for greater reliability in some applications. As other aftermarket systems have matured, they adopted this sensor later in their development cycle. This has given many the impression that this sensor is far better than the 4.2, while it simply showcases how poor many competing aftermarket systems were in their Bosch sensor control. As production is shifting to this sensor, the Bosch LSU 4.9 will become our standard Bosch sensor offering.

3. Production Grade NTK Sensor: This is the sensor NGK packaged with the Powerdex AFX in 2010 and later. Newer and lower cost than the Calibration Grade NTK Sensor, this sensor offers the benefits of the NTK architecture at a reduced price.

4. Calibration Grade NTK Sensor: This is a more robust and slightly more accurate NTK sensor typically used in higher-end systems. The reputation of the NTK sensor was largely built upon this sensor.

5. Lab Grade NTK Sensor: This is a highly accurate NTK sensor used previously only in systems costing $1500 or more


Q. Is the NTK sensor better than the Bosch sensor?

A. In some cases, yes. For leaded fuel, for periodic moisture, or contaminant exposure the NTK sensor family clearly demonstrates superior performance. Many tuners have reported thousands of dyno hours on NTK sensors with leaded fuel while the Bosch sensors die quickly with lead. No sensor is immune from poor tuning however and a rich misfiring and exhaust backfiring engine can damage even the most expensive sensor in a matter of minutes. For a casual street user on pump gas, there is a less discernible advantage for the higher cost sensors.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
 
#23 · (Edited)
Chris Richards reached out to me yesterday and he's willing to help. Once John and I find a wideband setup we like, we'll supply Chris with the information so that the calibration file can be set up properly to work with them. Just to be fair, I like the customer service I'm getting from Pro-M Racing and his concern over the issues some of us are having is welcoming.

In closing, I wanted to point out Chris Richards has been using the same Innovate widebands in three or four of his family's vehicles over 8 years. During that time he had one bad MTX-L controller and not one sensor. Honestly, I wish all of us could have the same success rate but we don't.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
 
#25 ·
Chris Richards reached out to me yesterday and he's willing to help. Once John and I find a wideband setup we like, we'll supply Chris with the information so that the calibration file can be set up properly to work with them. Just to be fair, I like the customer service I'm getting from Pro-M Racing and his concern over the issues some of us are having is welcoming.



In closing, I wanted to point out Chris Richards has been using the same Innovate widebands in three or four of his family's vehicles over 8 years. During that time he had one bad MTX-L controller and not one sensor. Honestly, I wish all of us could have the same success rate but we don't.



Thanks

Michael Plummer


Did you reach out to Chris or did Chris reach out to you because of this thread?
 
#26 ·
I am very interested in this as I am about to begin my Pro-M EMS install soon and would like to avoid a bunch of issues with the DLG-1 wideband setup. If there is something better I would rather go that route from the beginning.
.
 
#27 ·
I recently installed my Pro-M EFI with the DLG-1 and haven't had any issues. I only have about 200 miles on everything but a lot of initial starts. That being said I did the relay modification from the beginning that Chris outlined in a previous post. Crossing my fingers and all good info here.
 
#30 ·
The relay modification helps with thermal shocking the sensor by preventing the sensors from turning on when the key is on and the engine is off. I recently upgraded to the supplemental harness and I have the relay option but I just lost one of my sensors from my new Innovate MTX-L Plus setup which prompted me to start this thread and look for an alternative.
 
#33 ·
if you're going through WB02 sensors quicker than tires than it's your EGTs that's causing them to burn up and you either need to check and address the EGTs (ideally) or get a heat-sink as these sensors (vw oem bosch) were never designed to take that kind of thermal abuse

https://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=158

Heat-Sink Bung Extender (HBX-1) The Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band O2 sensor (shipped as part of the LM-1 kit) is rated to operate at an exhaust gas temperature of < 1300 degrees (F), and a sensor housing temperature of < 900 degrees (measured at the bung) for maximum accuracy and control. When either of these operating temperature ranges is exceeded, the sensor can no longer be accurately controlled. Further, operating at or over these temperatures for any length of time can significantly reduce the lifetime of the sensor. The LM-1 is designed to display an error message under these conditions (currently 08- Sensor Timing Error) rather than provide inaccurate readings. For some turbo vehicles, rotary engines, and other setups, this error message can be encountered with annoying frequency.


if it's not the heat it's probably not your install skills since installing this on the pro-m is pretty dummy proof so i'd also check and clean ALL your grounds.
 
#36 ·
All 12 of mine just died. I had bungs before the turbo then I was told they got too hot located there so I added bungs about 2ft after the turbo. They still never lasted more than 20 minutes of idling. Worst money spent in my life. Installing the AFX WB's was an instant fix. They work like a WB is supposed to work.

People can and will defend Innovate and blame the user for the O2 failures..fine by me. But there are some damn smart people installing them that still had issues with them but never had an issue with their replacement.

ks
 
#39 · (Edited)
John and I have narrowed down our search to the following wideband setups below. John talked to an Engineer from Ballenger and based on the information he gave us, convinced us to omit the NTK AFRM wideband. Below is a summary of what he had to say.

The Bosch sensors are not anywhere near as durable. Furthermore, the NTK sensor in the AFRM is designed more like a Bosch and therefore is less durable. The Bosch and the AFRM NTK sensors are really designed for nothing more than factory cars and not motorsports. High exhaust pressure as you would see with boost can damage them in short time.

He got detailed into Innovate burnouts. Not only is that a standard grade sensor (not bad, but also not meant for motorsports), but the Innovate control is totally wrong. He said what they do for heating is extremely damaging and leads to frequent problems. It’s not the way people install most of the time. The controllers are bad. End of story there.

We decided the AFRM wasn't a good option for us. While it would be an upgrade from Innovate in that it won’t inherently burn out the sensor from improper control, it would be only on par in terms of sensor quality and actually a downgrade in terms of output speed. He freely admitted the Innovate controller is significantly faster than the AFRM. Like 20 times faster. That would be bad for closed-loop feedback. The AFR500 is on par with Innovate in terms of speed.


Option #1: AFR500v2 with the NTK "Calibration" sensor. $475 x 2 = $950
https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2337

Option #2 UPDATED: AEM 30-0300 with Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor $185 x 2 = $370
https://www.aemelectronics.com/prod...ies-wideband-uego-afr-sensor-controller-gauge

Option #3: Zeitronix ZT-4 "dual" gauge with Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor = $349
Zeitronix Zt-4Dual AFR Wideband Controller


I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
 
#40 ·
John and I have narrowed down our search to the following wideband setups below. John talked to an Engineer from Ballenger and based on the information he gave us, convinced us to omit the NTK AFRM wideband. Below is a summary of what he had to say.



The Bosch sensors are not anywhere near as durable. Furthermore, the NTK sensor in the AFRM is designed more like a Bosch and therefore is less durable. The Bosch and the AFRM NTK sensors are really designed for nothing more than factory cars and not motorsports. High exhaust pressure as you would see with boost can damage them in short time.



He got detailed into Innovate burnouts. Not only is that a standard grade sensor (not bad, but also not meant for motorsports), but the Innovate control is totally wrong. He said what they do for heating is extremely damaging and leads to frequent problems. It’s not the way people install most of the time. The controllers are bad. End of story there.



We decided the AFRM wasn't a good option for us. While it would be an upgrade from Innovate in that it won’t inherently burn out the sensor from improper control, it would be only on par in terms of sensor quality and actually a downgrade in terms of output speed. He freely admitted the Innovate controller is significantly faster than the AFRM. Like 20 times faster. That would be bad for closed-loop feedback. The AFR500 is on par with Innovate in terms of speed.





Option #1: AFR500v2 with the NTK "Calibration" sensor. $475 x 2 = $950

https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2337



Option #2: AEM 30-4110 with Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor $180 x 2 = $360

https://www.aemelectronics.com/prod...ego-afr-gauge/digital-wideband-uego-afr-gauge



Option #3: Zeitronix ZT-4 "dual" gauge with Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor = $349

Zeitronix Zt-4Dual AFR Wideband Controller





I hope this helps

Michael Plummer


Thanks for all the hard work guys! Keep us posted. I’ve had great luck with Zeitronix for many years. My method of integration into the Pro-M EFI could be better, would be great to have Chris integrate it completely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#42 ·
I'm interested in the AFR500v2 and the Zeitronix solutions. I like the Zeitronix dual gauge display over the AFR500 box, but that's just a personal preference. I've used that AEM UEGO setup in the past on previous projects with 2 failures of the sensor and one failure of the gauge, not going to use that again as I've had better luck with the Innovate stuff.
 
#44 ·
I've used that AEM UEGO setup in the past on previous projects with 2 failures of the sensor and one failure of the gauge, not going to use that again as I've had better luck with the Innovate stuff.
i've been running the aem uego for years, and had some issues with it early on caused by a faulty ignition-on source and then a sensor or two burning out, which is how i came upon this subject and found the heat sink. again, this is going back nearly a decade.

the anderson pms i had at the time allowed me to log upto 8 custom channels (something the pro-m needs), which the nerd/engineer in me took advantage of and logged EGTs next to the WB02 location (i put lots of bungs in my downpipe when fabricating the exhaust side), as well as temps at the bung. this is before getting married and the kids so lot of time for science experiments and doing real problem analysis and not just going by opinions and theories.

i'm still running the aem setup as i already had it installed in the car when i switched to pro-m and innovative lc1. plus it's nice to compare WB02 readings between the aem, innovative and the dyno. the sensor on the aem i have in my car now is at least 7 years old. the innovative is 3 years old.
 
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#43 ·
I like the Zeitronix for the single gauge setup like the DLG-1 has. That is the way I am leaning right now. For my rather simple NA setup I have a hard time justifying the expense of the AFR500v2 with the calibration sensors. Of course, a few failures and you are there on expense anyway.
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