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post #1 of 34 Old 11-30-2009, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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383w or LSx?

I am considering building an LSx 1991 Mustang, provided I can improve on my current combo. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Current Combo:
Application: Road Race
Engine SCAT: EFI 331 10.5:1
Mustang Dyno : 355hp
RPM peak power is flat from 5500 to 6800rpm (thanks to a Solid Roller cam)
Heads: AFR 205
Tuner: Tweecer
Transmission: T5Z

I can build a 383 351w that will make 450hp to the wheels, the downside is the extra 60lbs of cast iron with the 351w.

Now for the LSx engines
I’m starting from scratch in the LSx world.

Is it best to build an LS1/LS2 (buy a wreck) or buy a take out 2010 LS3 Camaro engine (complete less harness) and change the cam, springs and push rods? Ideally, I would like an engine that is in the 400 -450 hp range to the wheels.
6500rpm shift point, perhaps a little higher if the engine will take it. I hear that the weak link in the LSx engines are the rod bolts is this the case with the LS3?

I realize most folks don’t run T5s with LSx engines, however I would like to keep my T5 to keep the weight down (82lbs vs 115lbs? for a T56). Has anyone run a Ford 10 spline T5 with an LSx? I have heard of some people running the Chevy T5 with a big block bell housing LS1 Flywheel & PP and an LS7 pilot bearing.

Is a Road Race oil pan required for LSx engines with an F body pan or 2010 Camaro pan to prevent oil starving?

Also, I would like full tuning capability. What is the best software for LSx engines.

Suggestions?

Thanks,

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post #2 of 34 Old 11-30-2009, 11:26 PM
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I dont recommend spending the money on expensive ls3 or better stuff. Take out motors from them are wayyy overpriced. I know, I sell them weekly to customers.

One factor will be there is about 200 lb difference between a EFI 351 based motor and a LS motor. (more than just the block 120lb'ish difference. Plastic intake/light alum bracket accessories/etc adds up to about 200lb complete motor difference. It will take 20-30hp more to make up that difference.

2nd: I would just build one from scratch, if you want a forged bottom end motor. If you want to run a stock bottom end /w upgraded rod bolts. Just buy a take out complete LS1. For the money a 01/02 LS1 is best bang for your buck /w ls6 intake manifold factory on 01/02's. You are a cam/head swap from 450 rwhp with ls6 intake etc.

I stock several LS1 drivetrains monthly.


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post #3 of 34 Old 11-30-2009, 11:55 PM
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You're going to get a lot of hate on a Mustang site, but I just made the LS1 jump mostly due to the weight change on the nose. I flipped the motor over upside down on the engine stand and swapped the rod bolts with ARP hardware, that easy. Seeing dyno sheets from these cars with mild cams they make torque all over the place, a big upgrade from my B headed 4V

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post #4 of 34 Old 12-01-2009, 04:17 PM
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A LS3 would be my choice if you can get one for a decent price. Cam change, mill the heads, and replace the rod bolts if you're worried about it. You will for sure be over 500whp and it will have plenty of power from idle to 7K. ECM choice doesn't really matter and HP Tuners will do everything you want for tuning. Just buy the pro version and learn to use it yourself. Unless you go super crazy with the cam choice, which you don't need, it will drive as well as a stock 5.0 with mild bolt ons, it will just have twice as much power.

I'm out on the T5. It probably can be done.

A couple of places make custom oil pans that I've read do much better than the stock GM stuff. Maybe consider the LS7 style dry sump. I think someone has done it with non LS7 motors and it's not crazy money either???
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post #5 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AidanN20 View Post
I dont recommend spending the money on expensive ls3 or better stuff. Take out motors from them are wayyy overpriced. I know, I sell them weekly to customers.

One factor will be there is about 200 lb difference between a EFI 351 based motor and a LS motor. (more than just the block 120lb'ish difference. Plastic intake/light alum bracket accessories/etc adds up to about 200lb complete motor difference. It will take 20-30hp more to make up that difference.

2nd: I would just build one from scratch, if you want a forged bottom end motor. If you want to run a stock bottom end /w upgraded rod bolts. Just buy a take out complete LS1. For the money a 01/02 LS1 is best bang for your buck /w ls6 intake manifold factory on 01/02's. You are a cam/head swap from 450 rwhp with ls6 intake etc.

I stock several LS1 drivetrains monthly.
Okay, I'll bite.
How much for a lower mileage '02 or newer LS1/LS6 with all accessories/flywheel and wiring harness.
How much for the above engine and a good t56 complete? Plus shipping to Sweet Grass Montana (I'm Calgary). Do these engines come with a factory aluminum flywheel?

Thanks,
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post #6 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 12:20 AM Thread Starter
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A LS3 would be my choice if you can get one for a decent price. Cam change, mill the heads, and replace the rod bolts if you're worried about it. You will for sure be over 500whp and it will have plenty of power from idle to 7K. ECM choice doesn't really matter and HP Tuners will do everything you want for tuning. Just buy the pro version and learn to use it yourself. Unless you go super crazy with the cam choice, which you don't need, it will drive as well as a stock 5.0 with mild bolt ons, it will just have twice as much power.

I'm out on the T5. It probably can be done.

A couple of places make custom oil pans that I've read do much better than the stock GM stuff. Maybe consider the LS7 style dry sump. I think someone has done it with non LS7 motors and it's not crazy money either???
Thanks for the tips.
I read your build write up, well done!
What's a decent price for a complete LS3? I believe you managed to get a good deal for somewhere around $2700 for the engine if I recall.

I saw a picture of an 06 GTO engine and a T56. From what I can tell the T56 appears to be approximately 3 to 4 inches longer than a T5. I have the MM tubular K member and I use the back mounts to move the engine back. Where will the shifter end up?

I'm in on the dry sump if it somewhat reasonable on the price. I take it that the LS7 oil pan/pickup etc are interchangeable with the LS1,2,3?.

Thanks,
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post #7 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 12:44 AM
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I have an LS2 out of an '07 Trailblazer SS. LS3's are a whole different beast. Only .2 more displacement, but the heads/intake are a very different design. AidanN20 is right, they bring a nice money right now, but they are badass...

http://www.camarohomepage.com/ls3/index.htm

I am ditching the console all together in my car due to the shifter location and I'm running a shifter boot/bezel from an 79-84 console delete car.
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post #8 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 01:48 AM
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F.S. LS3 6.2L long blocks $2,300 plus shipping.... 5 available...... [email protected]

You might want to consider going to a carburator. You can make more power with a carb and its cheaper and a hole lot easier plus you will have more hair on your head when your done and all you do is jet it and your done. I also went to the front mount distributor to make it even easier and its vary vary dependable with no problems all you do is time it and your done .......no more tuning. I have not touched my car in 5 months.....i love it and i`m so glad to get away from feul injection plus i have less weight because of no wiring harness, computor, no coil packs and no sensors....9.87 @ 139 on 93 pump gas with a hydrolic roller cam with 4 mufflers. But my motor is a LS7 converted over to a wet sump so that i could run the front mount distributor.






93 notch ls7 show and go
90 notch ls3 show and go
95 notch LTX
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post #9 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGCOWL-IMP View Post
F.S. LS3 6.2L long blocks $2,300 plus shipping.... 5 available...... [email protected]

You might want to consider going to a carburator. You can make more power with a carb and its cheaper and a hole lot easier plus you will have more hair on your head when your done and all you do is jet it and your done. I also went to the front mount distributor to make it even easier and its vary vary dependable with no problems all you do is time it and your done .......no more tuning. I have not touched my car in 5 months.....i love it and i`m so glad to get away from feul injection plus i have less weight because of no wiring harness, computor, no coil packs and no sensors....9.87 @ 139 on 93 pump gas with a hydrolic roller cam with 4 mufflers. But my motor is a LS7 converted over to a wet sump so that i could run the front mount distributor.



What carb spacer/plenum you are using if you don't mind telling? I'm going to build a LQ4/L92 combo but I'm waiting until I move and settle down into my new home. I'm going to use a custom cam from Bret Bauer, who did you go to? Thanks and great looking car!!

93 Mustang GT ZSR Dart 347, TFS 190 11R Heads, FTI Cam, TFS Box R Intake...
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post #10 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 08:01 AM
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If you own the 351W I would keep it. Its gonna cost alot to swap everything over. 351W can can make 450 hp without trying. If you gotta have a LSX for sure do the LS1 swap unless you find something super cheap. but my vote is for sure the Windsor. People bash the Windsor for its weight but its a proven combo with tons of parts everywhere. Good luck on your build!


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post #11 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 08:04 AM
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OH BTW its amazing how much the LS1 design looks just LIKE A FORD motor. Thats probally why its does pretty good..!

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post #12 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LSNotch View Post
What carb spacer/plenum you are using if you don't mind telling? I'm going to build a LQ4/L92 combo but I'm waiting until I move and settle down into my new home. I'm going to use a custom cam from Bret Bauer, who did you go to? Thanks and great looking car!!
I`m useing the allstar 2" super sucker spacer.
I used these guys to build my motor and pick my cam.
http://www.thomsonengines.com/home.c...=lsmaincap.cfm
Thanks

93 notch ls7 show and go
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post #13 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 10:26 AM
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OH BTW its amazing how much the LS1 design looks just LIKE A FORD motor. Thats probally why its does pretty good..!
WRONG just because they look simular don`t mean chit.
The ls3 l92 heads have a stock 2.165 intake valve and flow 326 bone stock..unported..Not bad for a sbc head that you can buy complete for $450 per pair.....What do the stock windsor heads flow ??

My STOCK ls7 heads have a 2.200 intake valve and flow 350.......not bad for a sbc stock head.

I would love to here what the Stock sbf heads flow.

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post #14 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 02:58 PM
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I`m useing the allstar 2" super sucker spacer.
I used these guys to build my motor and pick my cam.
http://www.thomsonengines.com/home.c...=lsmaincap.cfm
Thanks
Thank you very much for the info. Those folks seem to know their stuff well!

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post #15 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGCOWL-IMP View Post
F.S. LS3 6.2L long blocks $2,300 plus shipping.... 5 available...... [email protected]

You might want to consider going to a carburator. You can make more power with a carb and its cheaper and a hole lot easier plus you will have more hair on your head when your done and all you do is jet it and your done. I also went to the front mount distributor to make it even easier and its vary vary dependable with no problems all you do is time it and your done .......no more tuning. I have not touched my car in 5 months.....i love it and i`m so glad to get away from feul injection plus i have less weight because of no wiring harness, computor, no coil packs and no sensors....9.87 @ 139 on 93 pump gas with a hydrolic roller cam with 4 mufflers. But my motor is a LS7 converted over to a wet sump so that i could run the front mount distributor.






not into the whole ls swap mustang trend. I myself have a 427dart windsor in my mustang, but i gotta admit that your car is sick!!!!! Impressive times
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post #16 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 08:47 PM
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WRONG just because they look simular don`t mean chit.
The ls3 l92 heads have a stock 2.165 intake valve and flow 326 bone stock..unported..Not bad for a sbc head that you can buy complete for $450 per pair.....What do the stock windsor heads flow ??

My STOCK ls7 heads have a 2.200 intake valve and flow 350.......not bad for a sbc stock head.

I would love to here what the Stock sbf heads flow.
LOL..I was actually making a PUN BTW.. Yea considering Ford dont make Factory STOCK (351W)heads no longer I would too. We have to use aftermarket! And small chevy stuff has sucked until the LS1 came out! And I never did mention anything about flow#s, you went straight into defend mode, please relax. And yes they do look alike weather you agree or not... So what does your motor run in a FBODY?? Ok ok im done but serious you do have a sweet looking ride! I already know all the flow numbers..I was gonna build a LSX setup but honestly I think I run cheaper and faster with my future setup. Anyway sorry for the ruffling the chevy feathers.

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post #17 of 34 Old 12-02-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGCOWL-IMP View Post
F.S. LS3 6.2L long blocks $2,300 plus shipping.... 5 available...... [email protected]

You might want to consider going to a carburator. You can make more power with a carb and its cheaper and a hole lot easier plus you will have more hair on your head when your done and all you do is jet it and your done. I also went to the front mount distributor to make it even easier and its vary vary dependable with no problems all you do is time it and your done .......no more tuning. I have not touched my car in 5 months.....i love it and i`m so glad to get away from feul injection plus i have less weight because of no wiring harness, computor, no coil packs and no sensors....9.87 @ 139 on 93 pump gas with a hydrolic roller cam with 4 mufflers. But my motor is a LS7 converted over to a wet sump so that i could run the front mount distributor.





is it true that u can use a ford 302 non efi dizzy

94 mustang gt- stock 302, vortech v2 s-trim, too slow
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lsx swap soon
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post #18 of 34 Old 12-03-2009, 12:56 AM Thread Starter
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JW33 – thanks for the additional info. Does the LS2 Trail Blazer have an aluminum block?

BIGCOWL-IMP- Nice install! You have mail.

NUTzz- I have a F4TE 351w roller block sitting in the corner of the garage. My brother built a 383 using the same block that DOES put down 450 to the wheels on a Mustang dyno. Excellent power, however I want less weight up front. In fact, my first choice was an Aluminum 351 Dart block, have you checked the prices on these blocks? Not to mention the level of difficulty to tune such an engine for driveability with a Tweecer.
My goals are purely performance, driveability,reliability and I would like to use a stock height hood.
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post #19 of 34 Old 12-03-2009, 08:04 AM
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not into the whole ls swap mustang trend. I myself have a 427dart windsor in my mustang, but i gotta admit that your car is sick!!!!! Impressive times
Thanks for the good word and ya i`m vary happy for what it is. My motor only has a new cam, valve springs, lifters and i only moved compression up to 11.9.1 so that i could still use pump gas, everything else is stock other then the carb and dist.
So lets here about the 427dart ? I don`t know ford motors at all.

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post #20 of 34 Old 12-03-2009, 08:06 AM
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Thank you very much for the info. Those folks seem to know their stuff well!
Your vary welcome and if you have any more questions let me know.

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LOL..I was actually making a PUN BTW.. Yea considering Ford dont make Factory STOCK (351W)heads no longer I would too. We have to use aftermarket! And small chevy stuff has sucked until the LS1 came out! And I never did mention anything about flow#s, you went straight into defend mode, please relax. And yes they do look alike weather you agree or not... So what does your motor run in a FBODY?? Ok ok im done but serious you do have a sweet looking ride! I already know all the flow numbers..I was gonna build a LSX setup but honestly I think I run cheaper and faster with my future setup. Anyway sorry for the ruffling the chevy feathers.

LOL ya you did ruffle the chevy feathers a little but its ok i only lost one :~)..........yes they look vary much alike. My motor in a fbody??? 12ohs :-)

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post #22 of 34 Old 12-03-2009, 08:16 AM
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JW33 – thanks for the additional info. Does the LS2 Trail Blazer have an aluminum block?

BIGCOWL-IMP- Nice install! You have mail.

NUTzz- I have a F4TE 351w roller block sitting in the corner of the garage. My brother built a 383 using the same block that DOES put down 450 to the wheels on a Mustang dyno. Excellent power, however I want less weight up front. In fact, my first choice was an Aluminum 351 Dart block, have you checked the prices on these blocks? Not to mention the level of difficulty to tune such an engine for driveability with a Tweecer.
My goals are purely performance, driveability,reliability and I would like to use a stock height hood.

Thank you and you have mail.

93 notch ls7 show and go
90 notch ls3 show and go
95 notch LTX
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post #23 of 34 Old 12-03-2009, 09:27 AM
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The Trailblazer SS, GTO, C6 Vette, SSR, and CTS-V all shares the same all aluminum LS2 motor.
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The Trailblazer SS, GTO, C6 Vette, SSR, and CTS-V all shares the same all aluminum LS2 motor.
Thanks!
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post #25 of 34 Old 12-04-2009, 08:09 AM
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Well Blue Coupe sounds like you amde up your mind already. BIGCOWL: I have way more chevy friends then i do ford lol. I run or race anything, i dont care! Heck if i had a 9 sec Honda lol i would be a smack talking dude. I was looking real hard at doing a 6.0/6.2 setup with some L92 heads with some magic done to them! A Custom cam from Ed curtis, Turbo 350 with a 4500 stall. Instead im gonna build a 700 hp Clevor. My new heads will flow around 330 before minor touch up with HUGE cross section. Oh and it aint a CHI either. Good luck fellas i see ya all around! Good luck Blue Coupe

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post #26 of 34 Old 12-04-2009, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks NUTZZ
My other Mustang is an 88 Mustang powered by carb 357 Clevor! Small world!
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post #27 of 34 Old 06-30-2010, 05:23 PM
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you retards with the ls cars are dumb as heck yall are always like my stock this my stock that its completly built from the factory you got a big head a nasscar base cam and good compression it take half that in a ford to blow your doors off with a lot less cubes i know i do it every weekend at the drag strip with my little 306 on motor id like you to build your own motor a real old school 350 and see what you can make probably sh,it and thats why cuz chevy is sh,it
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That's nice to know dip####.
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post #29 of 34 Old 07-15-2010, 04:12 PM
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you retards with the ls cars are dumb as heck yall are always like my stock this my stock that its completly built from the factory you got a big head a nasscar base cam and good compression it take half that in a ford to blow your doors off with a lot less cubes i know i do it every weekend at the drag strip with my little 306 on motor id like you to build your own motor a real old school 350 and see what you can make probably sh,it and thats why cuz chevy is sh,it
wow that was really phucking intelligent, you should be a philosopher. Keep beating your chest till your fist turns blue.

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post #30 of 34 Old 07-20-2010, 10:41 PM
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Hey Nuttz,

Next time they brag about how cheap their heads are, ask them where they can find a decent price on a pair of Yates cylinder heads for an LS motor. You know, a pair of heads they can make some real power with.

Oh wait! Robert Yates never designed a pair of heads for an LS motor!

You can also ask them how cheap it's going to cost them to make those heads flow 400+ cfm. You can buy em' brand new CNC ported for a Ford for less than that pro port job they are gonna need.

Of course they are going to claim their stock heads are better and cheaper than the aftermarket ford stuff which is complete BS. If that was the case, competetors like SAM and the others who participated in the Jegs Engine Master's Challenge for the past several years using the LS stuff would have been winning instead of Kaase.

Blue Coupe,

Keep your ford stuff. If LS stuff was cheaper or better, winners like Glidden and Kaase would be using it instead of the sbf. What works good for the pros can work just as good for the weekend racer or street car. It's all about what parts are chosen and how they are assembled. Don't get caught up in all the hype and BS spewed by the ford wannabees. Try to mimic the pros way of thinking and your car will respond accordingly, even if it's just a regular street car.

1969 fastback street car project underway.

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post #31 of 34 Old 07-21-2010, 05:53 PM
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You and your "Jegs Engine Master's Challenge" measuring stick. What are you going to say if an LSx platform wins sometime? Because guess what came in second this year less than one point away with a single 4-barrel, OEM heads, and it was a first year combo? You add nothing to this forum expect entertainment value. I don't think there are too many LSx folks sticking their dick skinners in there with diarrhea of the keyboard like in this section.
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post #32 of 34 Old 07-21-2010, 06:43 PM
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you retards with the ls cars are dumb as heck yall are always like my stock this my stock that its completly built from the factory you got a big head a nasscar base cam and good compression it take half that in a ford to blow your doors off with a lot less cubes i know i do it every weekend at the drag strip with my little 306 on motor id like you to build your own motor a real old school 350 and see what you can make probably sh,it and thats why cuz chevy is sh,it
LOL at you calling somebody "dumb"

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post #33 of 34 Old 07-21-2010, 07:46 PM
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What are you going to say if an LSx platform wins sometime? .
When someone wins with an LS platform 5 years in a row against the sbf, then they will get my attention. When someone takes an LS powered car with less than 430 ci, single carb, cast intake, and dominates a class full of blown 500 ci aftermarket hemis and 750+ ci mutiple nitrous kit powered cars, then they will have my attention. Until then, all this 'LS is superior' talk is just that, talk. No concrete evidence to back any of it up other than friday night t&t sessions.

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post #34 of 34 Old 07-22-2010, 05:15 AM
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When someone wins with an LS platform 5 years in a row against the sbf, then they will get my attention. When someone takes an LS powered car with less than 430 ci, single carb, cast intake, and dominates a class full of blown 500 ci aftermarket hemis and 750+ ci mutiple nitrous kit powered cars, then they will have my attention. Until then, all this 'LS is superior' talk is just that, talk. No concrete evidence to back any of it up other than friday night t&t sessions.
Where the LS1 currently has an advantage is street level, or mild race type stuff, many of the combos are laid out, and there is a ton of support on the forums for all kinds of different setups. You can get on LS1tech and trip over all kinds of cheap ass ways to make 400-500 rwhp N/A, pump gas, efi, hydraulic roller. Sign in on this site, and you see guys stuck in the 80's for the most part. You have the douchebag entry level guys that think a bcam is awesome just because it isnt stock, that you need a 65mm tb or smaller, and all kinds of other stupid ####. Then you have the more all out guys on here, or on the more "hardcore" SBF sites that are hardcore race only types. There is middle ground, but it's few and far between compared to the LS1 stuff.

Dont get me wrong, plenty can be done with an SBF, but it just depends on your goals and budget. For an ALL OUT BALLS TO THE WALL CLASS RACER, the SBF, SBC, BBF, and BBC are proven, and are the way to go, but when it comes to the run of the mill street or mild race applications, the LS1 opens alot of doors! Those motors are more modular than Ford's so called Modular Motors.

I like boosted setups, and as far as "kits" go, everything, blower or turbo is BIG DOLLAR for an LS1 car, even used, and thats what kind of sucks. Putting together a 550-700 (and more with $$$$) rwhp nitrous combo isnt hard though.
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