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post #1 of 30 Old 01-13-2014, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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VSS question

I have been doing some research to figure out how to use my factory VSS sensor in my fox mustang with my MS3X.

From the Manual
Megasquirt-3 - Speed and Gear sensors

I am tryin gto figure out if this "converter" is what i need:
Dual VR Conditioner Board V2.1

based on this information it is a magnetic ac pulse generator
https://forums.corral.net/forums/gene...ut-signal.html

Fuel Injection Technical Library » Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS)

is it that same as a "VR differential"

I guess i am unsure about the terms used with these sensors. If i can't use my factory one could someone suggest something.

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post #2 of 30 Old 01-13-2014, 10:23 PM
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Yes that will work. You want a 0-5v pulse input. The conditioner will take the ugly signal you'll get from the VSS and turn it in to a nice square wave signal. At this point you basically have a trigger wheel signal, like you have in your distributor or what you'd have from a crank trigger. Looks like it's an "8 tooth" arrangement, so 8 pulses per VSS rpm.

Choose driveline mounted.


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post #3 of 30 Old 01-14-2014, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you. That's what I guessed, but wasn't for sure.

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post #4 of 30 Old 05-10-2014, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
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not to bring up an old post but, I haven't been able to get this to work. I just started tonight so all hope isnt lost.

I am using the vr condtioner board listed in post #1.
here is what i know:

I have a fluke 87V multimeter for troubleshooting.

I have 14 volts at the board. it is connected to the battery for now
I have a good ground. I am also connected to the battery.

I am not sure if my factory vss sensor is working.
sny thought on how to see if it is ?

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post #5 of 30 Old 05-10-2014, 08:03 AM
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An o-scope would probably be best. Does your multimeter have a setting for measuring RPM? You might be able to use that to deduce that you're getting pulses.

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post #6 of 30 Old 05-10-2014, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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I don't think my several hundred dollar multimeter does rpm. Go figure. Have to do some basic testing with a drill and an extra set if hands.

Might be more effective to get the Bluetooth adapter and GPS that phill sells. Although my future plan were boost per gear and i don't think there is a boost per speed.




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post #7 of 30 Old 05-10-2014, 08:07 PM
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Fluke 87 V True RMS has Hz button, so will read frequency. Also reads temp with provided sensor. Looking at mine, right now.

What are you going to use the VSS signal for? Some kind of traction control?

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post #8 of 30 Old 05-11-2014, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown88GT View Post
Fluke 87 V True RMS has Hz button, so will read frequency. Also reads temp with provided sensor. Looking at mine, right now.



What are you going to use the VSS signal for? Some kind of traction control?

Primarily logging. I'd like to raise the AFR and spark advance of highway cruise speed.

I guess a secondary function could be traction control. It have to be the kind that pulled fuel and spark. Not sure of the workings of this feature though.




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post #9 of 30 Old 05-12-2014, 02:01 PM
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It retards the timing to reduce engine power. I don't believe it ever actually cuts ignition or fuel, that's probably not something you'd want as dropping a cylinder would create a dramatic output change event and you want smooth changes to manage traction.

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post #10 of 30 Old 05-12-2014, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
It retards the timing to reduce engine power. I don't believe it ever actually cuts ignition or fuel, that's probably not something you'd want as dropping a cylinder would create a dramatic output change event and you want smooth changes to manage traction.

thats what i meant. I was thinking for some reason some of the OEM used brakes as traction control. I dont know though. It's been one of those days


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post #11 of 30 Old 05-12-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_minnis View Post
thats what i meant. I was thinking for some reason some of the OEM used brakes as traction control. I dont know though. It's been one of those days
Some do use the ABS system for traction control. The ABS has it's own computer.

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post #12 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_minnis View Post
thats what i meant. I was thinking for some reason some of the OEM used brakes as traction control. I dont know though. It's been one of those days
Yup some do use the brakes.

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post #13 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Well my stock VSS is doing somthing. Hooked to a dewalt 18 volt drill, at full speed I am getting about 7 volts ac. I am not sure what it should be but from the reading I have done that is about right. Hooked to the vr cond. I don't get anything in tuner studio under any of the possible settings.

The VR cond gets exremely hot. I am not sure if this is normal. I don't think we have an osope at work. There are 2 different circuits on the vr cond. I may try the other one.

if not I am going to get the gps stuff from Phill

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post #14 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_minnis View Post
Well my stock VSS is doing somthing. Hooked to a dewalt 18 volt drill, at full speed I am getting about 7 volts ac. I am not sure what it should be but from the reading I have done that is about right. Hooked to the vr cond. I don't get anything in tuner studio under any of the possible settings.

The VR cond gets exremely hot. I am not sure if this is normal. I don't think we have an osope at work. There are 2 different circuits on the vr cond. I may try the other one.

if not I am going to get the gps stuff from Phill
Assume you got the 12V external model? I would think it would get very warm but not hot.

tThis might answer some of your questions:
jbperf.com • View topic - Dual VR V2.1

I can find anything in TS yet.

I have seen the BT, it's too long to fit in my mounting location. BT will be slower than RS-232. I have a laptop dedicated only to the car & made a custom mount for it. Made a mouse pad tray, too, so don't have to work the touchpad lefty. Touchpad sucks on this Dell, probably why it was in the trash.

BTW, you can get USB o-scopes that use your laptop. Probably a better investment than the BT & GPS. I had done some research & forgot all about it.

Some to consider are SainSmart & Hantek; some pretty nice ones for under $100.
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post #15 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 08:17 PM
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Not sure what the BT and GPS would do for you. That's only going to feed info to TS. MS doesn't get the data.

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post #16 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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VSS question

Ok been talking to jbperf. Checked voltages and frequencies. I think the board has a short. I'm sure I caused it when I was hooking the leads up. Not a biggie. I'll order another one on Friday. It'll give me dome time to figure out how to install it.

The gps and bt options will log just like the Vss sensor. The Vss has active features if I wanted to enable them.


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post #17 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 10:59 PM
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Which active features? Maybe I'm just being dense here.

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post #18 of 30 Old 05-13-2014, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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I think you can do traction control and a boost per gear with a real Vss sensor.

The gps is for data logging. No reason a boost per gear couldn't be done with gps. That option isn't there. It might not be fast enough.

I also think if you have one or the other you can enable the performance and economy window and get estimated power and mpg in logging.



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post #19 of 30 Old 05-14-2014, 07:30 AM
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Traction and boost per gear with a vss I can understand, the signal is an input to the MS cpu.

I am pretty sure that the gps only connects with your laptop or tablet. You can enhance your logs by interlacing speed data but the MS cpu does not receive an input so it can't be used for boost control.

If you know some way MS can actually use the GPS as an input, spill the beans!!!

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post #20 of 30 Old 05-14-2014, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
Traction and boost per gear with a vss I can understand, the signal is an input to the MS cpu.

I am pretty sure that the gps only connects with your laptop or tablet. You can enhance your logs by interlacing speed data but the MS cpu does not receive an input so it can't be used for boost control.

I was doing some carefull reading this morning and I think you are right. The GPS talks to the laptop and the laptop talks to Tuner Studio. It never says the GPS directly to the MS unit. It'll still work for my initial goal, just hard to drop a Benjamin when the other is a Ulysses.

I wonder if there is a GPS unit that can sent out a signal the MS would understand? It would have to be hardwired in and send out a 0-5 volts or a wave. humm. research time

only one i could find taked to OEM ECU over the OBD 2 port
AiM Sports - The World Leader in Data Acquisition

and it is about 10 times what I am willing to pay, lol

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post #21 of 30 Old 05-14-2014, 09:37 AM
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Most of the GPS modules I've seen don't have a fast enough refresh rate for traction control, but there are a few that put out pulsed signals that could be used for other functions like boost by speed.

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post #22 of 30 Old 05-14-2014, 09:44 AM
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That's cool. Good point on the rate. I believe the one that Phil offers is 10hz or 10 updates per second which probably isn't enough to work well.

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post #23 of 30 Old 10-17-2015, 01:12 PM
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Bringing this one back from the dead.

Were you able to get this figured out? I have the same MS3X, and I'm wanting to hook up the factory VSS as well.

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post #24 of 30 Old 10-31-2015, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Bringing this one back from the dead.

Were you able to get this figured out? I have the same MS3X, and I'm wanting to hook up the factory VSS as well.
I never got it working with the factory sensor and a converter. theoretically, there is no reason why it won't work. After I shorted out the first converter, I decided to get the bluetooth adapter and GPS from EFI analytics.

That setup worked ok for what I wanted. However I will tell you that using a bluetooth adapter with a vista laptop was a pain (the adapter for the laptop, not for the ms3x).

Remember i wanted to log MPH and MPG and adjust the AFR and Timing tables for Max MPG on highway. After doing much experimenting and long drives the factory A9L AFR and timing table is a pretty good compromise. Sure I was able to really lean it out at the 60, 70 and 80 MPH in 5th gear cells, but the cell would change based on if you hit a hill or wind. You would make the lean spot bigger and you would still hit them cruising around.


I was able to find the tables for the A9L and increase the size and used those and the car ran really well. I was also able to check out a friends Pro M system tables and noticed they trend close to the pattern of the A9L also.

Sorry for left field discussion but I figured I would share my findings.

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Great info, I appreciate it. I was more wanting it for logging mph, more than anything else, but I haven't ruled out working in the traction control in the future.

Thanks

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In case anybody has been thinking about this, I'm testing factory VSS with an MS3Pro right now using the shielded cam input (my crank and cam are both hall so didn't need to use the shielded inputs). I tapped in to the factory wires on the drives side kick panel and tested with the rear of the car lifted off the ground. Currently it's erratic when the wheels aren't spinning, jumping around between 2mph and 30mph when it's not actually moving. As soon as I start rotating the wheels, it gets smoother and more closely follows what I see on the dash.

Matt Cramer suggest I test some resistors in parallel with the Sensor so I'll be testing a 10k and 1k since those were in the parts bin. This is nice because it doesn't require an external conditioner.
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Is this taken directly from the sensor itself, or from the output of one of the on-board boxes? I didn't look but I'm guessing it feeds the cruise control box?

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I took the signal directly from the sensor before it reaches any other connectors.
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post #29 of 30 Old 06-05-2019, 01:08 PM
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very cool. Is it a VR type?

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post #30 of 30 Old 06-05-2019, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
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very cool. Is it a VR type?
Yes, the factory fox sensors, at least for 1990, are VR type sensors. I read a post about the triggering wheel having 8 teeth but I haven't confirmed it. I used 8 for the setting but might need to modify if speed readout doesn't match the gauge cluster.

The whole purpose of this is to use some VSS for different features of MS3 but also to use in combination with a front wheel hall sensor for traction control. I run a 235 drag radial on the street with stock wheels for a sleeper look so it'd be cool to let traction control help put the power down on unsuspecting victims. lol
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