I want low-end torque! - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Angry I want low-end torque!

I thought I was buying a muscle car, but it acts like it's Japanese! I hate waiting until 4000 RPMs to feel the kick in the pants. I know this is an old question, but throw me a bone. I already have the 3.73 gears, so yeah I guess that gets me to the torque faster, but what other good mods are there that I can do to get a little more low-end power (without supercharging)?


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post #2 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 06:50 PM
 
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Buy a Camaro.

No, seriously, anything you do to improve low-end torque (short of supercharging or a stroker kit) will cost you on the top end, generally speaking.

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post #3 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 06:52 PM
 
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I know you said no SC but that is clearly the ticket to more torque. In particular, roots type blowers produce huge low rpm torque. I pulled 411 ft/lbs torque with my set up below at 2850 rpm.

Don't really know another way to accomplish what you want.
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post #4 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 07:20 PM
 
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You should try a little 50 cent resistor mod. My car seems to spin the tires even more down low, when i have the resistor in.
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post #5 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 07:22 PM
 
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N20 always seems to work great for torque values Other then that everything has already been mentioned. These are modulars not pushrod motors they just don't have the same grunt down low like they use to.
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post #6 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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What do you think about the Bullitt intake? I've read that the Bullitts are a bit quicker off the line than the GT's because of this.

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post #7 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 07:55 PM
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The Bullitt intake doesn't do all that much for NA cars, and what it does do is more up high, I believe. If you haven't done anything besides what's in your sig, here's a few suggestions. Get an H-pipe (better for low-end torque)-cats are up to you. Get a full exhaust system. Pick up a set of Steeda pulleys and Timing Adjuster at the same time. Don't forget to ditch the air silencer if you haven't already. You could also try hogging out your MAF meter or getting an aftermarket one and get a 70mm throttle body, although I doubt these two will help a lot with low end torque. At least you have better heads already!

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post #8 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 08:01 PM
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svo blower = mad low end torque
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post #9 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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If I get an H-pipe, do I need to switch my Magnaflow mufflers for Flowmasters. I heard that's a better combo. Of course, living in California makes me scared to touch the cats because of the smog police.

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post #10 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 09:24 PM
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My suggestion would be a Steeda timing adjuster. From what i have heard it gives a good shot of torque down low.


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post #11 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dehoass
You should try a little 50 cent resistor mod. My car seems to spin the tires even more down low, when i have the resistor in.
what mod is this? I already did a forum search but could not find anything. can you please elaborate?

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post #12 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 09:43 PM
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You can change your cam timing. Advance the timing to improve low end torque, but you will loose top end. It will shift the torque power band down by advancing it. I forget the ratio of degree/100rev shift. Make sure you check the clearance!

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post #13 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 09:56 PM
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post #14 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 10:04 PM
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N20 will definitely give you that kick. A 125 shot has been producing almost 500 ft. lbs. on a 99+ cobra.

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post #15 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 10:08 PM
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There's no reason I can think of that you would have to change mufflers just because of getting an H-pipe. But, there is the issue of baffled mufflers (Flowmasters) working better with an H-pipe and straight-through mufflers (Dynomax) working better with an X-pipe. An X-pipe will flow better high in the rev range, but I don't believe the effect is significant for a NA application like yours. And you want low-end torque anyway. If you get a catted H-pipe to avoid the law (BBK and MAC make them for 4.6s) and you don't like the resulting sound, you could change the mufflers then, but I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #16 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 10:14 PM
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LOL.....we have just listed enough stuff to make the baddest stang around. LOL
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post #17 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 10:43 PM
 
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I can't believe no one has chimed in about longtubes. They make tons of low-end torque. Made 16ft/lbs more with the BBK's.
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post #18 of 46 Old 04-08-2002, 10:53 PM
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skip all the bolt ons and put on a supercharger. It will give you 3x the amount of HP that all the bolt ons put together would IMHO
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post #19 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 12:21 AM
 
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You could try a dyno tune. Besides picking up torque at the peak, I picked up some down low as well.
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post #20 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 02:26 AM
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Pullies will free up a couple of extra and X or H (with or without cats- your choice) pipe to go along with your catback. Should gain you back a few, but the "muscle car" feel you yearn for is not found with bolt-ons on a small displacement motor. For that, you need a S/C, and preferably a roots type that gives you almost instantaneous boost.

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post #21 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robuilt


what mod is this? I already did a forum search but could not find anything. can you please elaborate?
This relates to the IAT sensor. It determines timing by sensing the incoming air temp. Colder air = denser air = advanced timing.
You can unplug this sensor and then stick a 100K ohm resistor into the connector instead of the sensor. This "fools" the computer into thinking the air is colder than it really is. This mod registerd 2hp when I dyno'd the first time.

Do a seach on "Puffin Box" for more details on a permanent hookup.

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post #22 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BLKCobra01
N20 always seems to work great for torque values Other then that everything has already been mentioned. These are modulars not pushrod motors they just don't have the same grunt down low like they use to.

Pushrods have nothing to do with it! (in case that's what you meant.)

5.0L have better TQ due to 4" bore and shorter 3" stroke! that's the only reason. The DOHC would have great TQ down low if they didn't kill our displacement. FYI :

4.6L = 3.55" bore x 3.54" stroke. IMHO i'd take the 4x3 anyday! just give me the DOHC as well. Then we have a truly great motor!

Oh yea, and Keep the block Aluminum!!!!

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post #23 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 09:58 AM
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Another vote for nitrous. 515ft lbs at the crank with a 100hp wet shot.

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post #24 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robuilt


what mod is this? I already did a forum search but could not find anything. can you please elaborate?
Think this is the one.

http://www.dfwstangs.net/tech/cppp/CPPP.htm

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post #25 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lafear01

Pushrods have nothing to do with it! (in case that's what you meant.)

5.0L have better TQ due to 4" bore and shorter 3" stroke! that's the only reason. The DOHC would have great TQ down low if they didn't kill our displacement. FYI :

4.6L = 3.55" bore x 3.54" stroke. IMHO i'd take the 4x3 anyday! just give me the DOHC as well. Then we have a truly great motor!
You're right about the pushrods. A DOHC engine is more reliable, more power efficient, and can operate at higher RPM. But DOHC doesn't itself reduce the available torque.

But you got the stroke / bore exactly backwards. For a given displacement, short stroke / big bore is for high RPM power; and long stroke / small bore is for low end torque.

The longer stroke gives the piston a longer moment arm to spin the crankshaft -- more crankshaft torque. But it makes the piston travel further with each revolution -- limiting high RPM operation, which limits the gearing you can use.

High RPM engines must have a short stroke, in order to reduce the speed of the pistons. They don't necessarily have less torque, but they get their torque at high RPM -- which is A GOOD THING because it lets you use more gearing.

Consider a typical 4-cylinder motorcycle engine -- redline 13,000 RPM, stroke 44 mm, bore 77 mm. High power, low torque.

Now consider a Harley Davidson engine -- redline 5,500 RPM, stroke 107mm, bore 92mm. Low power, high torque.

Of course, the high power low torque engine literally blows away the high torque low power engine in every performance category.

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post #26 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by lafear01

Pushrods have nothing to do with it! (in case that's what you meant.)

5.0L have better TQ due to 4" bore and shorter 3" stroke! that's the only reason. The DOHC would have great TQ down low if they didn't kill our displacement. FYI :

4.6L = 3.55" bore x 3.54" stroke. IMHO i'd take the 4x3 anyday! just give me the DOHC as well. Then we have a truly great motor!

Oh yea, and Keep the block Aluminum!!!!
Wow, there are still a few smart people around here. I really get tired of everyone saying push rods make better torque. As lafear01 pointed out, it has nothing to do with the push rods. The 4.6L makes no torque because it is castrated in the displacement department. Check out the few guys on here that have stroker kits, or 5.4L engines. Those guys make some serious torque. The OHC setup just allows the engine to naturally rev higher due to its more efficient setup. That does not mean that it sucks at low rpms.

You want more torque, get NO2, roots supercharger, or stroke your motor. Other than that you are pretty much SOL. Long tubes are your best bet for a bolt on item, but don't expect miracles.
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post #27 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Clements
Of course, the high power low torque engine literally blows away the high torque low power engine in every performance category.
You said in more words, but design the engine for HP and gear it to the application.
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post #28 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:22 AM
 
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Slider I think you neglected to mention compression and head design. They are as critical as the displacment. Seems the 2v heads ie: GT motors make their torque much earlier then the 4v.
A little more to the equation then just displacment and stroke.

My comment earlier was in regards to comparinig the 4.6 to the old 5.0's. Your not going to get the mod motor to come alive at 1500 rpm like they did. Maybe I should say it stock fashion anyway. On the flipside of that they were out of steam by 5000-5500 as well.

But I'm with ya 100% a roots style blower would give him what he's looking for.
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post #29 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TexasDevilDog

You said in more words, but design the engine for HP and gear it to the application.
That's right. The AMOUNT of torque is totally irrelevant. Design the engine to generate as much horsepower as possible and gear it to match whatever RPM range it uses.

Here's a quote from an earlier post:


Here's an extreme example to make the point: A theoretical engine with a mere 1.7 ft. lb. of torque flat from idle to 1 million RPM, using a 467:1 differential ratio will deliver the same 320 horsepower and the same shift points in each gear as the stock Cobra engine. But despite its mere 1.7 ft. lb. torque it would deliver far superior off-the-line low RPM grunt.

That's because with a flat torque curve, its 1.7 ft. lbs. at 1,000 RPM multiplied by the 3.37 first gear and the 467:1 differential is 2,675 ft. lbs. at the wheel of the car. Compare to the stock Cobra engine, which has about 175 ft. lbs. at 1,000 RPM, multiplied by 3.37 first gear and 3.27:1 differential which is only 1,928 ft. lbs. at the wheels of the car.

So it is not how MUCH torque that matters, but instead it's the SHAPE of the torque curve combined with the POWER output of the engine. And if we assume a reasonably flat torque curve, power is all that matters.

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post #30 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by BLKCobra01
Slider I think you neglected to mention compression and head design. They are as critical as the displacment. Seems the 2v heads ie: GT motors make their torque much earlier then the 4v.
A little more to the equation then just displacment and stroke.

My comment earlier was in regards to comparinig the 4.6 to the old 5.0's. Your not going to get the mod motor to come alive at 1500 rpm like they did. Maybe I should say it stock fashion anyway. On the flipside of that they were out of steam by 5000-5500 as well.

But I'm with ya 100% a roots style blower would give him what he's looking for.
I did not mean you inparticular. I have been hearing that pushrod quote ever since the modulars came out. I guess it just gets under my skin a little.

Yeah, your right about the head/valve design. Lets not forget about cam profile. I guess the main point is that there are a lot of different ways to get more low end torque, but none of them are cheap or easy. They all require extensive engine modifications compared to what the 4.6L is in its stock form.
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post #31 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SliderGT


You want more torque, get NO2, roots supercharger, or stroke your motor. Other than that you are pretty much SOL. Long tubes are your best bet for a bolt on item, but don't expect miracles.
What he said. There is no cheap solution. Maybe you should get a 03 Cobra. That will have lots of low end torque. AED and Saleen make roots s/c for the 2V.

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post #32 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, let's suppose I do break down and decide to get a roots-style blower. What kind of long-term reliability can I expect? And last time I checked, blowers for the 5.0s were quite a bit cheaper than the ones for the newer 4.6s. Will the prices come down eventually?

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post #33 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDawgGT
Ok, let's suppose I do break down and decide to get a roots-style blower. What kind of long-term reliability can I expect? And last time I checked, blowers for the 5.0s were quite a bit cheaper than the ones for the newer 4.6s. Will the prices come down eventually?
Go over and ask Boosted32V on www.svttexas.com or www.dfwstangs.net and he will tell you that he has a 97 Cobra that has a KB1500 roots and 100 shot with 130k miles on a stock engine. He has been blown since 70k. Spraying for I dont know how long.

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post #34 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by SliderGT


I did not mean you inparticular. I have been hearing that pushrod quote ever since the modulars came out. I guess it just gets under my skin a little.

Yeah, your right about the head/valve design. Lets not forget about cam profile. I guess the main point is that there are a lot of different ways to get more low end torque, but none of them are cheap or easy. They all require extensive engine modifications compared to what the 4.6L is in its stock form.
Let's not forget the intake manifold design. The Mustang 5.0 engine has super long intake runners that promote great low-speed cylinder filling velocity. That helps generate great amounts of low end torque.
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post #35 of 46 Old 04-09-2002, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nino97CobraVert

Let's not forget the intake manifold design. The Mustang 5.0 engine has super long intake runners that promote great low-speed cylinder filling velocity. That helps generate great amounts of low end torque.
Yes. And they restrict airflow at high RPM, limiting the engine's top end power.

It's all a tradeoff. You can get high torque which is easy to launch but not necessarily fast. You can get high power which is fast but not necessarily easy to launch. You can get both, but then you have only two options: a "monster displacement" N/A V8 which is so heavy it will impair the balance of the car -- or forced induction, which will shorten the lifetime of the engine.

Choose your poison!

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