Best Fenderwll Induction Kit - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 02-07-2002, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Post Best Fenderwll Induction Kit

Hell All...
I'm looking for opinions of the best aftermarket Cold Air Induction System (Inside Fenderwell best?). I'm lookin at BBK & MAC. I have a 99 Cobra and am looking to get her breathing a little easier. Thank You!


1999 Mustang Cobra MMR 1500 5.4 DOHC
898/779rwtq 14psi 17deg timing E85
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post #2 of 40 Old 02-07-2002, 10:47 PM
 
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I would consider the Anderson Power Pipe. It's more expensive but it offers the least restriction and probably the straightest possible path to the intake I like it

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post #3 of 40 Old 02-07-2002, 10:56 PM
 
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Here's the problem...

The aftermarket systems change the turbulence or characteristics of the flow of air. They also do away with the MAF screen. The combination of these two creates a couple problems. One is that the car idles poorly because the MAF cannot get a good reading. This is characterized by a miss at idle, a fluctuating idle, and stalling. Second, since the MAF can't get a good read at idle, I don't think it can get a good reading at any rpm. Therefore, the aftermarket systems have the net effect of hurting hp and torque.

I had the MAC CAI on there for about 2 weeks and was not impressed with the power increase or the overall driveability. Car felt sluggish and idled poorly. Tonight, I just put the stock airbox, no silencer, and K+N back on and it feels much better. It is staying this way now. Idles like a champ and feels more responsive to the throttle. I have no dyno numbers or 1/4 times, but the evidence on the net seems to say that it's a wash... any gain from increased breathing of cooler air is offset by the inability of the MAF to get a good reading to the EEC-V so it can administer the proper amount of fuel to the engine.

Now, the MAC CAI does look terrific but it is definately not a power improver.

*** Please note all these tests were done on an otherwise stock 02 GT with the stock MAF meter. The use of an aftermarket MAF meter with a CAI kit may work very well indeed***

Unless you're looking to dress up the engine compartment, just get a K+N, ditch the snorkel, and be done with it. Put your $150 somewhere else.

Jeff
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post #4 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 01:11 AM
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Try the densecharger setup, it's almost exactly the same setup I built for myself. For $115 it's good money spent for 2mph.

I've had no issues with bad idle, surging missing or otherwise.

Important thing with a cold air system is to go from the fender all the way to the throttle body and to replace the crimped crappy hose between the MAF and the throttle body.

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post #5 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 08:53 AM
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Hey HIPSI are you running the stock maf with your powerpipe?
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post #6 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 12:04 PM
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A 2nd vote for the Densecharger. www.densecharger.com

You can get the Power Pipe/Densecharger for your 99 for about $160 shipped to your door. It should be worth about 10hp at the wheels. I have zero problems with my densecharger. The post in my MAF has even been removed as well as the screen without any ill effects(poor idle, loss of power, etc).

It has actually been dyno proven that there is 1rwhp increase when running the Densecharger without the screen.

DO NOT REMOVE YOUR SNORKEL! I say this because this has also been dyno proven to lose HP/TQ. With the hood open it is good for about 1-2rwhp, but when the hood is closed, there is a loss of about 2rwhp from the baseline numbers(with snorkel installed). I personally have my doubts that even cutting the snorkel has any positive gain in the HP/TQ department.

The densecharger has also been dyno proven to provide on avg 5rwhp/5rwtq and the Power Pipe has been showing an additional 4rwhp/5rwtq when used with the Densecharger CAI.

I am not surprised that Nomore4bangers was not impressed with his MAC "Cold Air Induction" kit. It is made out of metal. After driving around in the hot summer heat, lift your hood and touch your stock inlet pipe. It is cool to the touch. Now throw on some metal piping and drive around for an hour. Then pop your hood and get a "Cold Air" tattoo on your hand when you touch the pipe.

The metal pipe will get much hotter than the stock pipe. Therefore, any gain from having a straighter inlet path is negated by the increase inlet air temp.

This is a good mod but you will have a lot of "nay sayers" out there that will try to disuade you away from this mod. The "proof is in the pudding" so why don't you ask Bob Cosby what inlet setup he is running and why. He runs the same style power pipe that John @ Denscharger sells. However, Bob runs the WMS tube with custom calibrated MAF as opposed to the densecharger 90* elbow. I have never asked or seen the question asked as to why he runs the WMS and not the DC elbow, so I don't know why he made that decision. However, he does run 11.8's in a N/A 99 cobra, so he must know a little something about what are good mods.

Hope that helps.

88 LX 5.0 Vert
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post #7 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 12:32 PM
 
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I'll third the Densecharger setup
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post #8 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Talking

Thanx a TON guys....i REALLY appreciate it.

1999 Mustang Cobra MMR 1500 5.4 DOHC
898/779rwtq 14psi 17deg timing E85
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post #9 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 04:18 PM
 
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Idle problem....

I installed a MAC CAI on my 98 COBRA in August.

I have had no idling problems and this is the first time I have ever heard that you will not get a power gain from a CAI install.

CAI, from both MAC and BBK are popular in our club. I chose the MAC 2V/4V kit due to the price being double for the BBK. The MAC only mods fenderwell to MAS, but couldn't justify getting the MAS to intake for $150.. more.

I had a K&N in my Air Silencer box before the install and I noticed a pick-up in performance.

Just remember, ask this question in a week and the responses will change.....
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post #10 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 04:21 PM
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I 2nd the AFM pipe...

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post #11 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 04:39 PM
 
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put your money elsewhere, Cold air kits just look nice and give you maybe a couple hp.
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post #12 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 05:47 PM
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EVERYONE: Please take the time to note / look into what intake setup Bob Cosby is running. He runs 11.8's in a N/A'd 99 cobra with bolt-ons ONLY. He sure as heck isn't running the stock tubing and he isn't running MAC, BBK, or AFM power pipes.

Yes ladies and gents, he is running an almost identical setup to what is sold at www.densecharger.com He runs the exact same power pipe as them and his CAI elbow before the MAF is similar and made by WMS Racing out of Canada. The WMS is made out of metal while the DC pipe is plastic.

No offense, but have you run before and after tests on the dyno, track or datalogging your intake temps? I have yet to see one "gain" in HP/TQ that has been substantiated by dyno, track or other meaningful comparison. Personally I would never use a metal inlet pipe. Especially between the TB and MAF, because that part is directly over a hot valve cover and exhaust manifold.

Also, not to flame, but just because a part is popular among a certain "group" does not always mean it is good for performance. I will admit that going with the "crowd" when coming to a performance decision usually means you are making the right choice, but not always.

Think of the ACT sensor(air charge temp) that will be in almost direct contact with either A) plastic tubing or B) metal tubing. Think about how much warmer the air will be due to the metal being hotter than plastic. That air will cause the ACT to say "I am getting hotter air now, so I need to retard timing" Well anyone who mods stangs knows that retarding the timing is not good for performance(unless blown and you are trying to fend off detonation).

People complain that their metal shift knobs get incredibly hot if they are in hot weather stop and go driving. This is because metal transfers heat much better than plastic. If you screw a metal shift knob onto a metal shift handle, that is attached to an all metal tranny, that gets extremely hot, you get the idea. But with a plastic shift knob, you will hardly ever feel it get warm. This is just an example that I thought of that would prove my point a little better.

However some people care more about what their intake pipe looks like as opposed to what it performs like. Personally I would rather have something perform as opposed to looking good. How many times a year are people going to say "Wow! Your car is fast! Is your inlet pipe chrome!?"

Unless you are big on chrome and enter your car in every car show you can, then you are wasting your time and money on the MAC or BBK setup. Ask any 12 sec cobra owner if they have the BBK or MAC inlet tube and they will say no. (At least every sig of every 12sec cobra owner that I have seen does NOT list a MAC or BBK "Cold Air" kit) There may be one or two with the AFM, but that is quite a bit different power pipe and it puts the MAF in the fender. Plus I believe it requires using a Pro-M MAF specially calibrated for that setup.

88 LX 5.0 Vert
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post #13 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 06:19 PM
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I too have a Mac CAI on my 98 Cobra. I have had no problems what so ever with my idle. It was on all through summer, 600 mile trip down to GA in the middle of summer, and now winter with no problems. My screen is also removed. I don't know if I got any power out of it or not. It does look a lot nice than that bulky air box. It is a metal pipe, but like I said it has had no problems or lack of performance.

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post #14 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 06:26 PM
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quote:
Think of the ACT sensor(air charge temp) that will be in almost direct contact with either A) plastic tubing or B) metal tubing. Think about how much warmer the air will be due to the metal being hotter than plastic. That air will cause the ACT to say "I am getting hotter air now, so I need to retard timing" Well anyone who mods stangs knows that retarding the timing is not good for performance(unless blown and you are trying to fend off detonation).
--------
question: seeing that the iat is upstream from where the air would be "heated" due to the proximity of metalic tubing in the engine bay, how would air charge temp be sensed in such a way that it would cause a reduction in timing?

i could see that your point would be valid if the iat was positioned in such a way that it sensed the pre-heated air. perhaps i'm missing something----- but, from a performance standpoint, the "cooler, denser" air which would supposedly be obtainable by a dense-charger like set up obviously would be beneficial, i just can't see the iat/timing issure being effected.

this is the reason however that i'm thinking about ditching the c&l and reinstalling my ported maf with a densecharger set up. the c&l meter gets incredibly hot, which i supposed could effect the inlet air temp.

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post #15 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 06:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by WALL96COBRA
Hey HIPSI are you running the stock maf with your powerpipe?
I am using the stock mass air with the Anderson Power Pipe.

Blue88mustang,
I'm not afraid of Bob . My car actually makes slightly more power. He's just a better driver running at better tracks.

I have never used any other cold air setup so I cannot compare to anything else.
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post #16 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 07:51 PM
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Too bad densecharger doesn't make a tb to maf tube for the 96-98 cobras.
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post #17 of 40 Old 02-08-2002, 11:03 PM
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I like my BBK CAI, it really helps on the big end, no idling problems and its hooked up to the C&L and it looks cool. Click on the www on the bottom, I have pictures of my engine bay with the BBK CAI. I did have to cut off the flange in order to make my C&L fit, but my guess is all CAI's do about the same thing as far as hp goes the only differances is that some are prettier than others..Good luck with whatever one you go with...DA Snake Boy!!!!
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post #18 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

Thanx again everyone...TTT

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898/779rwtq 14psi 17deg timing E85
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post #19 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nomore4bangers
Unless you're looking to dress up the engine compartment, just get a K+N, ditch the snorkel

Jeff
It has been proven many times that removing the snorkel on 99+ GTs will hurt performance. Just leave it the way it is.
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post #20 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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This is a 99 Cobra...same effect?

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898/779rwtq 14psi 17deg timing E85
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post #21 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 12:35 AM
 
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Lightbulb

Well i would suggest a MAC cold air intake.That was actually my first mod and i really liked it.I felt the diffrence right away when i stepped the gas,also i could hear the intake sucking in the air which i thought was really cool.
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post #22 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 01:53 AM
 
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Quote:
It has been proven many times that removing the snorkel on 99+ GTs will hurt performance. Just leave it the way it is.

Fellas, I am here to learn, and am not an authority. Please tell me how this has been proven and I will put it back on.

Jeff
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post #23 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 03:15 AM
 
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Dyno #'s

Just a quick question thats probably on some minds, where is the dyno results for the densecharger system? with or without the MAF screen? various MAF sensors? I was thinking about purchasing one but to see dyno results would be the deciding factor.
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post #24 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 08:59 AM
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Re: Dyno #'s

Quote:
Originally posted by 71stang99
Just a quick question thats probably on some minds, where is the dyno results for the densecharger system? with or without the MAF screen? various MAF sensors? I was thinking about purchasing one but to see dyno results would be the deciding factor.
See sig for dyno results for a DenseCharger on a otherwise stock 98 Cobra (MAF screen installed). I don't have before numbers, unfortunately. Don't expect a lot of gain. I couldn't tell too much difference, but it did seem a little stronger, but that may be my imagination.

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post #25 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 10:04 AM
 
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I don't have any, but dang, I like the looks of the BBK.

I truely want as much performance as possible, but if I'm only gonna lose (not gain an additional) 1-2 HP over a Denascharger/WMS setup, I'll take the looks of the BBK any day.

No matter what anyone says, everyone likes their ride to looks its' best. Under the hood and above....

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post #26 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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Question

Yes any Dyno's on any of these induction Kits? TTT. Thanx again.

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898/779rwtq 14psi 17deg timing E85
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post #27 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 03:45 PM
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John just put my stock pipe back in the mail to me. I sent him the stock pipe off of my cobra so he could get the specs, angles, size of fittings, etc all figured out. He has found some 3.5" pipe that should work even with the Strut tower brace. It will probably be a few weeks before I have the "prototype" to see if it improves power and if it will fit under the Strut brace. If this size tube doesn't fit under the brace, I think he is just going to use the 4" pipe like what is used for the 99/01 cobras. Hopefully the pipe fits and it is big enough to feed our hungry cobras, but only a little testing will tell. But I think John will have a finalized pipe ready to ship for the 96-98 cobras in about 3-4 weeks. I figure there is snow on the ground right now anyways, so no point in having all these go-fast goodies and no way of testing them out.

I have a "slobra" unfortunately. My corrected dyno numbers were 265rwhp/269rwtq with an Offroad H-pipe and K&N. That isn't too bad, but I was expecting a few more HP and TQ to show up. I am shooting for 300rwhp and even more torque by this summer. I have BBK LT's and o/r h-pipe on the way and I will be adding the Densecharger PowerPipe to my combo as well. I also have U/D pulleys, so hopefully those mods will be enough to bump me up over the 300 mark.

As far as numbers you will need to email John @ Densecharger because he has the exact numbers from customers that have dyno'd before and after with the pipe(s).

Droptop55--- You will probably lose a couple HP/TQ compared to the stock inlet tubing. And if you compare it to the DC setup, then you are losing about 7rwhp/7rwtq. Sorry, but I would rather pay $170 for 5-8rwhp as opposed to $230+ for something that will put me equal to or worse than stock numbers. But to each their own. I just don't think that a metal induction setup and "Cold Air Induction" should go in the same sentence.

Rojizostang--- The ACT sensor may be "upstream" from the hottest part of the inlet track, but if you are using a METAL "Cold Air" kit then the WHOLE metal tubing will get heated up via conduction from other metal parts it attaches to. The ACT is placed right behind the MAF. Thus, that means that the WHOLE pipe between the MAF/TB will be heated because it is right over the valve cover/exhaust manifold. The whole pipe will get HOT, not just the bottom of the pipe. True, certain spots might be warmer than others, but it would be hard to figure out the HOT spots without some kind of infra-red temp sensor gun.
And I realize that the metal pipes are "separated" by rubber couplings, but you must realize that metal gets hotter than plastic when exposed to the same ambient temps.

I will ask John next time I talk to him why he doesn't offer a "Chrome" painted pipe for those that must have the "chrome" look in their engine compartment. So far, the only reasoning behind anyone buying other systems is because of the "chrome" look of the MAC/BBK pipes. I just don't know if there is a chrome paint that will handle the engine compartment temps or not. I will check with John though and let you know what he says.

88 LX 5.0 Vert

Last edited by blue88mustang; 02-09-2002 at 04:21 PM.
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post #28 of 40 Old 02-09-2002, 04:06 PM
 
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Would someone please direct me to the "Before vs After Dyno Results of the Densecharger System for a 4.6 liter SOHC or DOHC Ford" with NO OTHER MODS thrown into the testing to confuse the issue?
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post #29 of 40 Old 04-27-2002, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WALL96COBRA
Too bad densecharger doesn't make a tb to maf tube for the 96-98 cobras.
i asked John about the same thing for my 5.0. said his testing showed the factory tb to maf was just fine peformance wise and he didn't wanna rip us off.
post #30 of 40 Old 04-27-2002, 10:24 PM
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I belive Bob Cosby has switched over to a Densecharger just as I have. The WMS was OK but the Densecharger is 4" ID all the way from the filter to the TB.

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post #31 of 40 Old 04-27-2002, 11:51 PM
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I have the BBK and have had zero problems with Idle or anything else. The fit, finish, and quality are excellent.

Yeah, it may give you a couple less horsepower than the Densecharger, or maybe not, (I have yet to see a comparison) but the looks under the hood can't even be compared.

The BBK looks awesome!

So, do you want a couple more horsepower or do you want people oooing and awwing when you raise your hood?

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post #32 of 40 Old 04-28-2002, 06:17 PM
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Metal will get heat soaked. If all you want is "Show" and NO "go" then go buy a rice burner and slap on a body kit and a noisy muffler.

I have never been a big fan of "chrome" on a car, especially under the hood. Yeah, maybe the BBK will look a little bit nicer under the hood, but I would rather have consistent performance for my car. I would rather people say "Dang, your car is fast!" as opposed to "wow, that sure is a purty pipe ya got there!"

Yes, Bob Cosby now runs the Densecharger and JJ Powerpipe(the DC power pipe was modeled after this pipe).

Heat soak is bad for performance because the air is warmer. It is bad on our cars because it tells the EEC that the air is warmer and in turn it cuts timing under most driving conditions including WOT.

Would you rather have your Air Temp Sensor mounted into an insulated piece of rubber or mounted into a grommet that is surrounded by HOT metal? On my cobra, the DC Powerpipe stays cooler than my stock rubber pipe did, so I know that I am getting better performance than the stock setup. To each their own.

88 LX 5.0 Vert
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post #33 of 40 Old 04-28-2002, 06:58 PM
 
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Ok

After reading some of these could it be possible that the Cobra's react better to the CAI than the GT? Since the Cobra is a heavy breather that really seems to need allot of air could the CAI just simply work better for it? I don't know just an observation.

I have a MAC CAI on my car I have never felt or even heard any idle or surge problems with my setup. Yes the CAI that is chrome does get a little hot when driving in stop and go situations. That is why I take a bag of ice to the track

The power that the CAI introduces is not really all that noticeable but I do see more throttle response on my Cobra... One thing I did try, and those out there with 99 Cobra's and up might want to do. Right next to our fog lights/driving lights, there is another little small hole. I went to O'rielly Auto and got some tubing then I got under my car and worked it so that the tubing runs from that hole to the CAI up top. I tried to keep it as drirect as possible. You cannot see it at all from looking at it at the front and it does not really help at lower speeds BUT when I get close to the higher RPM and going 80+ MPH I can seem to tell that it is getting more air and really helps the DOHC breathe. Others that have road with me can tell the same thing.

Well there is my .02 not much help but some :-)
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post #34 of 40 Old 04-28-2002, 07:06 PM
 
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Z06killer, you can make a fenderwell kit for your car out PVC real easy. I bought my Denscharger because I have no time to mess with buying and test fitting pipe. I feel that one could easily fab up the fenderwell set up. On a GT though the part that goes from the MAF to the TB would require a little bit of doing though. You'd need to cut pipe on an angle to get just the right shape. It's not worth it. A nice touch about the Densecharger is that he painted the pipe gloss black. It looks really good. It is a well thought out *KIT* versus someone "throwing" it together ala Home Depot. To do it, you'd need a 4" to 3" reducer with hose clamps(for the maf), 2x 4" PVC 90 degree bend. Don't forget the K&N. You might be able to swing the whole thing for $70? I dunno, I've never tried it. If you didn't have time, Denscharger is one of the better cold air intakes out there. I've also heard nothing but good things about WMS.<<< I think they're canucks though?!? *cough* buy American *cough*
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post #35 of 40 Old 04-28-2002, 09:00 PM
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Doug Johnson

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