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-   -   Please help no power after pi intake swap!! (https://forums.corral.net/forums/gt-sohc/2489860-please-help-no-power-after-pi-intake-swap.html)

laramik 04-18-2019 08:47 PM

Please help no power after pi intake swap!!
 
Okay so I have a couple different threads on another forum that I needed to replace my daughter's 98 mustang GT intake manifold because it was leaking. The car is 67,000 miles on it and is in pretty much tip top mechanical shape. Without going into too much detail I initially replaced it with a non pi aftermarket intake which leaked vacuum horribly so I decided to go ahead and do the pi intake swap. I purchased a genuine Ford racing performance intake manifold, the associated tube for the heat return a new water pump a new water pump nipple yada yada yada. Well it has been 24 hours now and the RTV has sealed. I took it out for a drive for about an hour today to make sure everything was on the up-and-up. The car feels like it has full power but only over like three and a half thousand RPMs. The car however feels like it is missing or even maybe running on 4 cylinders when under low throttle. I have check for vacuum leaks and there appear to be none. I have quadruple checked every single connector and they all seem to be plugged in. But to give you an idea, this car used to be able to burn rubber when I stomped on it in first gear and now I cannot make the tires even chirp unless I have the wheel all the way turn to the side and Hammer the hell out of the gas. I know I must be missing something but I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is. The car is throwing no codes and I even went so far as to verify that the check engine light does indeed work. I have a bluedriver obd scanner and nothing is coming up amiss. I have checked the oil and it is still clean so no sign of coolant in it. The only thing I can possibly think of is that when I very first started this project I forgot to disconnect the negative on the battery and one time sparked the positive from the alternator on a portion of the block. This just seems too much like I have a connector or a vacuum line not installed properly but I can't find one. The only thing I can see is that the vacuum line going from the back of the throttle body seems to be a bit corroded and cracking and with the use of a stethoscope I feel like maybe I'm hearing some hissing through it. However even if I disconnect it it runs the exact same so I don't really think it's that. I'm certain someone else's ran into this issue but I cannot for the life of me find anyone other than one guy with a crown Vic who seems to have had the same issue the car finally seems to have the appropriate amount of horsepower and torque and go but only after about 4,000 RPMs please please please help I have been working on this for 7 days straight due to ordering a crap NPI aftermarket intake that sucked. It's my 16 year old daughter's car which has recently got a new ball joints, struts, alignment, tires, convertible top, tie rods, brakes, brake bleed coolant flush and everything else that could possibly be wrong. Any help is most appreciated ..

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wywindsor 04-19-2019 08:15 AM

Check the coil on plug connections. Both sides. There is a long spring on the plug side that can fall out.

tsemmett 04-19-2019 10:55 AM

Ignition is a likely culprit, but a 98 wouldn't have Coil on Plug, they were still coil packs and wires. When I did my PI swap, I had a FWD plug wire diagram that threw me off a little, and ended up with 2 plug wires backwards at the coil. It kinda did what you're describing (ran poorly at lower RPMs). I'd double check them, just in case.

laramik 04-19-2019 11:56 AM

I did double check the ignition and wires. All routing is correct and I did add new dielectric grease to all wires.

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laramik 04-19-2019 05:22 PM

Replaced all plugs today and taped up line from back of plenum and zero change in behavior. Any ideas guys? I don't understand still no codes and my Bluetooth scanner reports zero issues. It's a blue driver.

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wmburns 04-19-2019 06:27 PM

Just wondering. Have you compared the long term fuel trims (LTFT) at idle and under load?

Often when there's a vacuum leak the LTFT's will add fuel at idle when the intake vacuum is high. Under load the amount of fuel being added will decrease as vacuum decreases.

Is there an imbalance between LTFT's on bank 1 vs bank 2?

How about the front O2 sensors? Are they switching at about the same rate?

It also seems to me that it should be expected to give up some part throttle performance with an intake that is much larger than stock. The airflow can get "lazy" and disorganized at low flow levels. The main reason for this upgrade is to improve high end HP.

laramik 04-19-2019 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmburns (Post 18550900)
Just wondering. Have you compared the long term fuel trims (LTFT) at idle and under load?



Often when there's a vacuum leak the LTFT's will add fuel at idle when the intake vacuum is high. Under load the amount of fuel being added will decrease as vacuum decreases.



Is there an imbalance between LTFT's on bank 1 vs bank 2?



How about the front O2 sensors? Are they switching at about the same rate?



It also seems to me that it should be expected to give up some part throttle performance with an intake that is much larger than stock. The airflow can get "lazy" and disorganized at low flow levels. The main reason for this upgrade is to improve high end HP.

I will run that test using the scanner and post results. But it's definitely not a lazy type thing. It's as if I unplugged multiple spark plugs... Definite miss.

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laramik 04-19-2019 07:09 PM

The vacuum line that runs out the back of the TB which goes to some sort of check valve is almost collapsing at idle. This is the worn hose. Don't know what this controls but it's like an 8 inch vac line 3/8 on one side to like 1/4 on the other with a check valve with a sensor plug then to a black vac line with a red line in it which runs down below wheel well area on passenger side.

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laramik 04-20-2019 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmburns (Post 18550900)
Just wondering. Have you compared the long term fuel trims (LTFT) at idle and under load?



Often when there's a vacuum leak the LTFT's will add fuel at idle when the intake vacuum is high. Under load the amount of fuel being added will decrease as vacuum decreases.



Is there an imbalance between LTFT's on bank 1 vs bank 2?



How about the front O2 sensors? Are they switching at about the same rate?



It also seems to me that it should be expected to give up some part throttle performance with an intake that is much larger than stock. The airflow can get "lazy" and disorganized at low flow levels. The main reason for this upgrade is to improve high end HP.

WEIRD RESULTS ..,Ok so ran LTFT at idle initially it sat at 0% on both banks. Took it for a spin and bank 1 seemed consistently at 1.5% higher than bank 2. Now after running it around block few times and hitting WOT bank 1 is at 4.7 and bank 2 is at 4.3. Short term trim is fluctuating around 0. Here is where it gets weird. Exhaust definitely smells of like sulfer mixed with a slight smell of burnt plastic?? Totally at a loss here...



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laramik 04-20-2019 01:35 PM

LTFT results https://imgur.com/a/RB0bDhwhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...37b93c09bf.jpg

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laramik 04-20-2019 01:51 PM

At 3000 rpm LTFT goes to 7.8 on bank 2 and 5.5 on bank 1. Back at idle they switch right back to 4.7 bank 1 and 2.3 bank 2.

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laramik 04-20-2019 02:49 PM

Restarted and let idle now for 10 min both LTFT are at 0 now. Exhaust smells perfectly normal now too

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indy2000 04-20-2019 08:32 PM

what are the 02s doing?

at operating temp, from idle snap to WOT, watch the 02s

what are they?

laramik 04-20-2019 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indy2000 (Post 18551296)
what are the 02s doing?

at operating temp, from idle snap to WOT, watch the 02s

what are they?

https://imgur.com/a/qc2S4FM

That's like 4 whips wot from basically idle.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...62a8e6f62b.jpg

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laramik 04-20-2019 08:57 PM

And fwiw, I just redid everything all the way down to the intake. Lubed every o ring replaced plug 3 and 4 dielectric on every one. If I unplug any one injector car falls on face. Super steady pulling 20 psi vacuum.

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indy2000 04-21-2019 08:37 AM

get a log capture of the weak power output, or missing

PIDs to log

both upstream 02s
Maf
Load
rpm
TPS

wmburns 04-21-2019 03:06 PM

FWIIW: On some of your O2 graphs you are data logging the after cat O2 sensor which will tell us nothing. The sensors needed are bank 1 sensor 1 (B1S1) and bank 2 sensor 1 (B2S1). Which are the before cat O2 sensors.

From what I could tell the LTFT are not behaving like would normally be expected for a vacuum leak. With a vacuum leak LTFT's should DECREASE fuel under load. Yours are INCREASING.

In fact to me the LTFT's would be more typical with a clogged fuel injector on bank2. If injector problems are suspected I have had great luck with InjectorRX.com.

>>>Format to read
At idle RPM's LTFT bank1 4.7 bank2 2.3

At 3000 rpm LTFT bank1 5.5 bank2 7.8

>>>Original
At 3000 rpm LTFT goes to 7.8 on bank 2 and 5.5 on bank 1. Back at idle they switch right back to 4.7 bank 1 and 2.3 bank 2.

If graphing LTFT's it would help to have RPM's layered with the data.

In general, STFT's change too fast to draw general conclusions from. To correctly analyze STFT's we need to see LTFT and RPM's as well so that it's possible to see the interaction.

Has this motor's base health been tested with a compression test and cylinder leak down test?

Are you positive this motor has been timed correctly? I could see that if one bank is off by a tooth this could reek trouble with the bank to bank balance.

laramik 04-21-2019 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmburns (Post 18551492)
FWIIW: On some of your O2 graphs you are data logging the after cat O2 sensor which will tell us nothing. The sensors needed are bank 1 sensor 1 (B1S1) and bank 2 sensor 1 (B2S1). Which are the before cat O2 sensors.



From what I could tell the LTFT are not behaving like would normally be expected for a vacuum leak. With a vacuum leak LTFT's should DECREASE fuel under load. Yours are INCREASING.



In fact to me the LTFT's would be more typical with a clogged fuel injector on bank2.



>>>Format to read

At idle RPM's LTFT bank1 4.7 bank2 2.3



At 3000 rpm LTFT bank1 5.5 bank2 7.8



>>>Original

At 3000 rpm LTFT goes to 7.8 on bank 2 and 5.5 on bank 1. Back at idle they switch right back to 4.7 bank 1 and 2.3 bank 2.



If graphing LTFT's it would help to have RPM's layered with the data.



In general, STFT's change too fast to draw general conclusions from. To correctly analyze STFT's we need to see LTFT and RPM's as well so that it's possible to see the interaction.



Has this motor's base health been tested with a compression test and cylinder leak down test?



Are you positive this motor has been timed correctly? I could see that if one bank is off by a tooth this could reek trouble with the bank to bank balance.

Ok, I definitely need and appreciate your help. To answer your questions: Engine has 67k on it. Ran great with zero problems before the swap and I haven't done compression or leak down cuz I just can't imagine it's screwed given that I show none of those symptoms pre swap. That being said.......I swapped back on the original "non pi" intake last night and bought new coils. Started her up today and guess what, exact same behavior. When I took out pi intake my rtv appeared perfectly fine with no visible indications of a screw up.
Two things I may not have mentioned before. When I did the intake, I cleaned the throttle body. I did however do the idle relearn procedure. But I used AutoZone brand brake cleaner for it. I didn't do a thorough cleaning just a quick few sprays. I also sprayed brake cleaner on the fuel injectors as they were pretty filthy at the base. Those seem to make the miss a little less noticeable but it's definitely still there. I plan to spend the evening putting on the new FRPP PI intake....again..... And will wait til am to run the live data streaming you requested. I'm happy to log it and share as an email if needed as well. The clogged injector theory peaks my curiosity too cuz I know that at one point when removing the fuel rail a few got kinda mashed into goo that was around their base and it absolutely feels like I have a cylinder missing. And when I first started it up it wasn't as bad until after it sat one night. Then it was really noticeable next am. But, when I tore everything down the first time and replaced all the plugs I blew out each injector individually with a blow gun before lubing each o ring and placing in the fuel rail. should I maybe buy an injector and replace each one, one by one and see if that is the issue. Because if I can't figure this out soon I'm just gonna buy a new engine and do the full PI swap like I should have done in the first place.

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laramik 04-22-2019 10:24 PM

Holy cow guys, was the wires.....replaced and all is well. What a dummy I am......thank you all for your help and didn't wanna LeAve this thread without closure..thank you guys.

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ScottyDsntKnow 04-26-2019 02:56 AM

Same thing happened to me when I did the intake on my 98. Wish I saw this thread earlier... #5 was crudded up like crazy.

Best wires you can get are the black Motorcrafts if they are still available on Rockauto.

You plan on swapping to PI or aftermarket NPI cams? PI cam swap just factory timing marks will add a lot of power.

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laramik 04-26-2019 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyDsntKnow (Post 18552676)
Same thing happened to me when I did the intake on my 98. Wish I saw this thread earlier... #5 was crudded up like crazy.

Best wires you can get are the black Motorcrafts if they are still available on Rockauto.

You plan on swapping to PI or aftermarket NPI cams? PI cam swap just factory timing marks will add a lot of power.

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I think so. I found a set of pi cams on a 2008 Grand Marquis with 22k miles at the boneyard for 25 for the set. What do you mean by factory timing marks? You mean keep it timed to factory spec?

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laramik 05-08-2019 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laramik (Post 18552750)
I think so. I found a set of pi cams on a 2008 Grand Marquis with 22k miles at the boneyard for 25 for the set. What do you mean by factory timing marks? You mean keep it timed to factory spec?

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I'm assuming u meant not putting a degree to the cam? I think I get it now.

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