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post #1 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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Mod Shootout racers heres your chance to be heard

We are trying to wrap up the shootout heads up class rules by the beginning of next week and we would like to hear your thoughts. Again, the details listed below are themes that must be met. All other rules will be taken into consideration. Mike and or John Tymensky please call me at 412-937-7702 to discuss your situation. Barry Shepard I'll be contacting you as well.

In case you haven't heard here are the classes

Pro Mod- Run what you brung and hope you brought enough. Factory steel frame only, no tubular chassis.

Renegade - Similar NMRA/FFW rules but with rules that favor mod motored cars. 8 ribs ok, 3" sleeve required, no powerglides, modified stock intakes ok.

Radial - No slicks, drag radials allowed, Renegade rules

Factory Stock - No Bob Cosby! , NMRA factory stock rules

4vpa - Class for real street 4v power adder cars. Have the capability to be driven daily if desired.

4vna - Class for real street 4v naturally aspired cars. Have the capability to be driven daily if desired.


2vpa - Class for real 2v power adder street cars. Have the capability to be driven daily if desired.


2vna - Class for real 2v naturally aspired street cars. Have the capability to be driven daily if desired.


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post #2 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 09:55 AM
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Those classes look great Dave. I would like to know if you have decided about weight breaks in 2v power adder. I would really like to race it or 2v na. I can guarentee I will be there for some class though


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post #3 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 98N2OGT
Those classes look great Dave. I would like to know if you have decided about weight breaks in 2v power adder
The minimum weight requirements will be lower, and we'll try
to have some parity that will allow everyone to be competetive.

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post #4 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:02 AM
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Thumbs up

I am fine with them, Dave, but then again, I am just in that little NA/2V group that nobody pays attention too!

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post #5 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:06 AM
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Would it possible to post some of the proposed changes so far? I know there was some talk about lowering the minimum weight in some classes.

2V NA Class Suggestions
*3200 lb minimum weight
*Weight penalty for SVO heads

Bill

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post #6 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Bill

Right now all that is up for discussion. If you think it should be structured a certain way please propose your ideas.
I am all ears to all proposed rule structuring right now. I didnt want to get to involved before hearing the racers because sometimes the best ideas come from the racers.

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post #7 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:30 AM
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Unhappy SVO heads??

Please Dave tell me tell me there are no restrictions for the SVO heads in the 2V N/A group? How aggressive are we allowed with our cams? Also Dave it's not going to take a 12.5 to win this year but a 12.3 heehee

Craig
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post #8 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:32 AM
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Re: Mod Shootout racers heres your chance to be heard

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave King
Pro Mod- Run what you brung and hope you brought enough. Factory steel frame only, no tubular chassis.
And they better bring more than enough, I know I will

Seriously though, you might want to do a breakdown of all the rules by class insted of a breief overview.
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post #9 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:37 AM
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Here is what I propose.

2v power adder

*nitrous base weight-3000
*supercharger&turbo - 3400

*deduct 100 for drag radials
*deduct 50 for et streets


Let all motor combinations in with no rules on what can be done to the motor( maybe run a cubic inch policy were you add weight per cubic inchs over 281, like hot street). Any headers should be allowed and pass through mufflers, stock type suspension, any read end, maybe a maximnume tire size, must have 2 seat, and must have the proper saftey equipment for your et.

Just some suggestions

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post #10 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 10:58 AM
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I got one Dave:

Craig, Bill, Marcus, and the rest, have to weigh 3600 pounds. No exceptions! And I can weigh 3100.

Just thinkin?
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post #11 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 11:07 AM
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heehee raven

Hmm Joe I think Bill and I should just slip in a two pound sandbag in your trunk while your be destracted by a few hooter girls. Grab his keys Bill heehee
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post #12 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: Mod Shootout racers heres your chance to be heard

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Stewart


And they better bring more than enough, I know I will

Seriously though, you might want to do a breakdown of all the rules by class insted of a breief overview.
Joe I want to run my car in Pro Mod this year, John will be driving it. What is fair for me to run the class? I don't want the money, but can I still compete in the class? Would John be able to take home the money if he was the driver? What would be fair to all?

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post #13 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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What I'd like to hear more from racers is there input on which transmissions should be allowed in which class. What should be the base weight requirements, and what type of equipment should get weight penalities or weight breaks.

Dave King
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post #14 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:18 PM
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I like Factory Stock with NMRA rules in effect. Maybe give the 2V guys a little more weight break (3100) just to make it more interesting and enticing. I feel sorry for those guys who want to run in NMRA with 2V's. Very hard to be competative. I hope to be there but that depends on the NMRA schedule.

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post #15 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:30 PM
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Street classes should run a overdrive trans ,manual or auto.No trans brakes on auto .Race automatics,9" converters and trans brakes are not something you see on street cars..Al

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post #16 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:33 PM
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Re: SVO heads??

Quote:
Originally posted by craig97GT
Please Dave tell me tell me there are no restrictions for the SVO heads in the 2V N/A group? How aggressive are we allowed with our cams? Also Dave it's not going to take a 12.5 to win this year but a 12.3 heehee

Craig
I guess you could look at it two ways. One being that both you and John could easily go to the shootout and be running 11.9 to 12.2 with your SVO parts where as I expect the rest of us to be in the 12.6 to 13.2 range. So a one to two hundred pound weight penalty for people using SVO parts would slow you down a couple tenths but still would have a clear advantage over anyone running stock 99 up heads/intakes. It would also make things a little closer, no one wants to see an 11.9 car against a 12.9 car.

The other direction would be it's a heads up class for 2Vs so anything goes. Of course from my perspective if a couple of guys with 80-90 more RWHP were showing up with the same base weight why would anyone even show up? I'll be there regardless to help you steal Joes keys while the Hooters girls are keeping him busy.

Cams would be a hard thing to regulate since it would be too hard for tech to check them. If someone tried to pass through tech with SVO heads it would be noticable.

Craig and John (if you read the board anymore) nothing against either of you but your cars are perfect examples. Both make great power using the best of parts and I think everyone here can appreciate that (I know I do). Last year I would have loved to run Joe in the final instead of Bart (no offense) because it would have been much closer. People at the track and racers like close races.

Bill
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post #17 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HIPSI
I like Factory Stock with NMRA rules in effect. Maybe give the 2V guys a little more weight break (3100) just to make it more interesting and enticing. I feel sorry for those guys who want to run in NMRA with 2V's. Very hard to be competative. I hope to be there but that depends on the NMRA schedule.
I would also suggest maybe let the 2Vs run long tubes. I think this would be a fair demand since it would be such a challenge to get a 2V to run those #s with shorties. It will probally still be a cobra class though, not any 2V out there I know of that could run 12.2s with factory stock rules.

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post #18 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:55 PM
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I hear ya Bill, I would've loved to have run you for the final, but things worked out weird.

In the future Dave, one more suggestion. When you say you can only run 1 (one, uno) class, keep people to that! No more switching classes after you have run qualifying runs.

I don't know what Leo's plans are for his car, as I haven't seen him on here, but if he is competing, he will be a force to reckon with also.

Dave, contact me please, concerning the work for this year.
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post #19 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 98N2OGT


I would also suggest maybe let the 2Vs run long tubes. I think this would be a fair demand since it would be such a challenge to get a 2V to run those #s with shorties. It will probally still be a cobra class though, not any 2V out there I know of that could run 12.2s with factory stock rules.
You can run 2V with Longtubes. I did last year, that is not a restriction.

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post #20 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Here are my feelings about the 2vna class.

Its a street class. Things like Jerico transmissions, powerglides,
Hogan sheet metal intakes, 4 links, spools, etc should be the parts in question.

I feel any performance part (Heads, intake, TB, mass air, computer, electronics, exhaust) part that is readily available should be allowed without pentality unless.................
1. It is expensive beyond believe that no average person can afford it.
2. Not a practical modification
3. Takes away from the street theme.


I can't simply pentilize a cylinder head if it makes more power.
From what I understand the stock cylinder heads can make great power? Isnt that what Spence is running? I can understand 5.0 spray bore blocks, and stroker kits getting pentilized, but isn't the goal here to be able to get the most power out of the parts that are readily available?


My thoughts on transmission issues. A C4 with a transbrake will not give a fair advantage over a 5 speed. I think Ben Dorn proved that with his car. A C4 can still be driven daily, not the most practical transmission to do so but I know several that do. Again the definition of streetible is a loose word.

My definition of streetible is this....................
1. Is able to go to the grossary store and car cruize.
2. Will not get pulled over by the police because of noise.
3. Can make at least a 15-20 mile trip.(requires street suspension)
4. Will not melt in the rain.
5. Can maintain a decent idle.

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post #21 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boss 330
Street classes should run a overdrive trans ,manual or auto.No trans brakes on auto .Race automatics,9" converters and trans brakes are not something you see on street cars..Al

Wanna bet???????? Ask Bill about my street car and it's transbrake.
post #22 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenGT


You can run 2V with Longtubes. I did last year, that is not a restriction.

Joe
In nmra rules you have to run shorty headers, they probally wouldn't notice if you don't break any records but why risk it?

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post #23 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:19 PM
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The question of being expensive beyond belief that no average person could afford it would be subjective to each person. I personally can't afford to dump $5-6K on heads and intake but that doesn't mean that other people can afford it. There is a distinct 30-40HP advantage with the SVO heads in stock form over the PI heads.

Regardless suggestions where asked for and I gave my input. Obvious things like Jerichos, liberty trans, sheetmetal intakes, etc... should not be allowed but that I would consider pretty obvious not that I can imagine anyone wanting to invest that type of money in a 2V.

Joe, 98N2OGT was referring to the factory stock class which does not allow long tube headers.

Bill
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post #24 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheGame



Wanna bet???????? Ask Bill about my street car and it's transbrake.
Very true, drives to and from the races transbrake and all!

Bill
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post #25 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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Bill

Can stock heads be prepped as good or almost as good as SVO heads? Yes I asked for your opinon, but I wanted to explain my thinking so that every is on the same page. I do appreciate all input, btw, I take nothing as obvious, that is the point of this thread. I don't want to post the rules next week and have people say "well I didnt say anything because I thought it was obvious".

D

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post #26 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:43 PM
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I agree about the transmissions! AOD or 5-speed (no proshifted units, must use clutch). I don't think a C4 is a streetable trans for cars geared like 4V's require or the stall converter that is required. I guess it is according to if you go on the 20 mile round trip at 70 or 45 LOL. I think there should be something said for keeping all of your accesories too! Alot of these cars still retain factory A/C, P/S, cruise, and ABS. Just a few thoughts, as I have tried to go as fast as I can retaining the streetability of a stock car.

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post #27 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 98N2OGT


In nmra rules you have to run shorty headers, they probally wouldn't notice if you don't break any records but why risk it?
Sorry, my bad, I thought you were talking about Mod Shootout NA2V class.

Joe

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post #28 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave King
Bill

Can stock heads be prepped as good or almost as good as SVO heads?
D
In my opinion you could get the PI heads close but not as good or better than SVO heads. I've seen over 300RWHP with stock unported SVO heads/intake with stock cams. I've yet to see a set of PI heads ported with custom cams make over 300RWHP. Of course I'm not the foremost expert and really Mod Motor racing is just starting to open up so who knows what could happen.

I haven't looked at the rules in a while but what do the rules say about 5.4 motors in any of the classes? I have a 5.4 that I'm planning on building up for end of 2002 (yeah I know long way off). I wanted to stay NA but don't have the ability or even a good foundation to fabricate an intake so instead it will most likely be converted to a lightning motor and put in my car. What limitations are their regarding the 5.4 motor? or weight penalities?

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post #29 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Bill: Most likely 5.4's will get a 250-300 weight penality.

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post #30 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 02:06 PM
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Wink but wait

I thought ported PI heads outflowed box stock svo heads? Shouldn't we be restricting the ported PI head guys if this is the case?

The SVO stuff is readily available to anyone that wants it. Period.

BTW Bill, $2200 for SVO heads? lol

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post #31 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 02:18 PM
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Re: but wait

Quote:
Originally posted by Purple Haze
I thought ported PI heads outflowed box stock svo heads? Shouldn't we be restricting the ported PI head guys if this is the case?

The SVO stuff is readily available to anyone that wants it. Period.

BTW Bill, $2200 for SVO heads? lol

L8r
I've seen the exhaust flow numbers reach the same as an SVO head but the intake is still higher on the SVO. Plus the flow numbers aren't everything.

The price I mention above is for everything not just the heads who would buy the heads and nothing else? Most people buy the heads, intake, install kit and some port and polish it all. Parts alone will run just over $4K.

Regardless it's a moot point and we'll just see what happens at the shootout.

Bill

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post #32 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 03:17 PM
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SVO vs PI heads

I have a set of SVO and PI heads ported by Fox Lake. The exhaust flow numbers are the same on both heads. The intake side is the diffrence. Svo's flowed 40 more cfm than the PI's on the intake. On a purpose built N/A engine (high compression,high rpm) the SVO's would be the clear winner. Anyone planning to run 2V N/A at the Mod Shootout wanting engine info please e-mail me. I can't race there due to CONFLICTING race dates. I think 11 second cars are possible in this class based on last years rules. My 2cents. Thanks

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post #33 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 03:34 PM
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I would think you could get ported PI heads very close to the performance of stock SVO heads. But, if you allow porting on the PI heads how will you stop porting on the SVO heads? There is no way ported PI heads will even come close to ported SVO heads.
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post #34 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 04:29 PM
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What was so wrong with the rules that were on the old mod shootout web site?..Al

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post #35 of 238 Old 12-11-2001, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boss 330
What was so wrong with the rules that were on the old mod shootout web site?..Al
Many things, they isolated a lot of racers, and the weight requirements were too heavy. Rules always can be improved on.

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