Bumpsteer causing tire wear? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 04-06-2019, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Bumpsteer causing tire wear?

I have a 95 which is pretty low It has sportline rear springs and cut front springs at the moment but its probably 2.75-3 inches lower than stock. I am looking for front sportlines at the moment to replace them. I have had the car aligned it has camber caster plates in the front but I am still getting tire wear on the inside edges of both my front tires. The CC plates I have do not allow me to get the wheels to factory specs regarding camber.. There is still some camber. I think they are at 1.5 degrees still, I dont have the alignment sheet any more though. I know camber can cause tire wear but I am only seeing it on the inside edge. The car has excessive bumpsteer issues and it can be a handful on uneven roads. The plan is to try and resolve the bumpsteer in a few weeks and I am wondering if correcting the bumpsteer will help to reduce the inner tire wear or should I just plan on getting a good set of MM plates or possibly the QA1 versions.. not sure if they are any good. Thanks in advance


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post #2 of 40 Old 04-06-2019, 08:17 PM
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what are you alignment specs?

do you still have factory lower control arms?


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post #3 of 40 Old 04-06-2019, 08:34 PM
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Sounds like a toe in issue. 1.5* camber is not going to cause excessive tire wear. Excessive bumpsteer only effects toe on bumps, not enough to cause premature wear.
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post #4 of 40 Old 04-07-2019, 04:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
what are you alignment specs?

do you still have factory lower control arms?
Sorry I dont have the specs any more. Its been a couple years since it was aligned but I havent hit anything, nothing has changed suspension wise. Its not pulling other than the bumpsteer issue although that doesnt really mean anything. Yes it does still have the stock lower arms. Once I do the bumpsteer I am going to get it checked out by a really good place here in town.

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post #5 of 40 Old 04-07-2019, 09:16 AM
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as said by Saleen414, it most likely a toe issue, not bumpsteer

having the stock bushings, especially in poor condition, will result in toe change from the static setting

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post #6 of 40 Old 04-07-2019, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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Ive got a dyno appointment Wednesday to dial in my timing and do some top end pulls. I dont want to take anything apart until after that.. At a minimum I am going to be lifting the car up a little bit, even if that is with a different set of cut coils in the front for the time being. I will pull the lower arms and see how the bushings look. The car has had a pretty easy life... it is only driven in the summer, and only has a little over 100k but its almost 25 years old so anything is possible. Some of the stuff in the rear was shot so maybe I have a similar issue in the front.

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #7 of 40 Old 04-07-2019, 10:13 PM
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Definitely a toe issue.

Get an alignment.

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post #8 of 40 Old 04-07-2019, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
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Ive got a dyno appointment Wednesday to dial in my timing and do some top end pulls. I dont want to take anything apart until after that.. At a minimum I am going to be lifting the car up a little bit, even if that is with a different set of cut coils in the front for the time being. I will pull the lower arms and see how the bushings look. The car has had a pretty easy life... it is only driven in the summer, and only has a little over 100k but its almost 25 years old so anything is possible. Some of the stuff in the rear was shot so maybe I have a similar issue in the front.
you will have to simulate a force as driving to see the flex in the control arms

these cars came with toe in from the factory

I run near zero toe, but i have non compliant bushings.
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post #9 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 12:05 AM Thread Starter
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I will get under it tomorrow with a pry bar to see if they flex easily. Im guessing the bushings will be shot, might just order a set of replacement stock arms if that is what I find. I had urethane bushings in my fox. I will probably avoid those but we will see. If I decide to go coil overs i will get different arms to push the wheels forward 3/4 of an inch most likely. My front wheels are so wide im not even sure if I can run coilovers.

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post #10 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 12:06 AM
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with a little math you be surprised what you can fit


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post #11 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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I have 1/2 an inch between the wheel edge and the strut at the closest point. Help me math!! The only way I can think of making them work would be to oval out the upper hole on the strut and pull the knuckle away from the strut which would affect caster. We have a really good alignment shop here that actually understands suspension geometry, not just some yahoo who has an alignment rack and follows specs... Even if I modified that struts they would probably be able to get it set up to where it doesnt eat tires.. My slammed focus doesnt eat tires at all. I didnt take my mustang to them last time because they were closed for some reason and I needed an alignment right away. thats what I get for rushing.

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post #12 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 09:48 AM
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what size wheel are you intending to put in

i run 17X9 and griggs coil overs......required work to fit in the front.

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post #13 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 12:16 PM
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If you want a quick confirmation to see if you are off on your toe settings, you can easily check in your garage if you have some string and jackstands.

I actually do my own settings and made a toe stick similar to what's shown in this thread. I set it to 1/16" toe in and have done it a few times over the years ad i change front suspension parts.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/han...effective.html

I'm not saying to perform your own alignment, but if you have some time to kill and want to know if your toe is really that far off, here's a method you can use.

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post #14 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
what size wheel are you intending to put in

i run 17X9 and griggs coil overs......required work to fit in the front.
I have 18x9 deep dish bullets with 265/35/18 Potenzas in the front.. Truthfully I am looking at the BCRacing set up... Its about 675$ for just the fronts and the spanners..

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post #15 of 40 Old 04-08-2019, 06:50 PM
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Pizza Hut wheels? What is deep dish?

Any backspacing numbers, that’s what i see on my tape measure

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post #16 of 40 Old 04-09-2019, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Backspacing 6.18" (161mm)

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post #17 of 40 Old 04-09-2019, 09:55 AM
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you can run a suitable quality spacer to clear the spring

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post #18 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
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I was able to measure my camber and it looks like the wheels are about 2.75 degrees in the front. I think that much is causing the inner wear so I am going to order some MM camber plates on friday. I picked up a set of Sportlines for the front. Ill be checking the bushings when I put those in and most likely order a set of arms if the bushings and balljoints are shot. Am I right in assuming that much camber is causing some of the tire wear?

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #19 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 10:48 AM
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toe

what was toe?

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post #20 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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i dont have the ability to measure toe... IF the toe is out, it will be corrected with the new alignment. I think we can agree I have too much camber for a street car. The inner tire wear is even on both sides so I suspect new bushings, good CC plates and an alignment will correct it. I still might order a bumpsteer kit just so its 100% dialed in. As I said in a previous post, Im taking it to a shop that specializes in lowered cars and actually understands suspension geometry. They do baseline suspensions setups for autocross guys a lot so they should be able to get my car set up or tell me why its wearing if all the work doesnt get it into spec.

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #21 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 05:14 PM
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The static toe might be within spec

Hence why i mentioned the bushings

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post #22 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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I think youre on the right track with the bushings.. I have the car on blocks loading the suspension and when i use a pry bar the drivers side moves around pretty easy. I will be pulling the whole suspension apart after cinco de mayo weekend to verify and make a plan. I may order urethane bushings, and new balljoints, I may order whole new lower arms. I dont know if I want to go back to urethane in the front. I noticed a lot of road vibration in the steering wheel after that change in my fox. I dont know how much it will really matter.. i have urethane motor mounts, heim/urethane rear uppers and lowers...

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post #23 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 06:15 PM
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DRAG CAR?

If not
Rear upper should be compliant, they need to lengthen and shorten

Also toe can be easily checked with a tape and a couple of straight edges

We changed toe during race weekends easily

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post #24 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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rear uppers are heim on one end urethane on the other, same with the lowers... They have no bind at all. I have the baseline suspensions street outlaw kit.. and UPR Pro street adjustable lowers

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #25 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 07:53 PM
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that is a super BIND setup.....

here, read up on Upper and effective length, on a 4 link

MM
https://www.maximummotorsports.com/t...p_panhard.aspx

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post #26 of 40 Old 04-25-2019, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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not exactly sure why we are talking about my rear suspension. It works exactly as it should and works significantly better than stock geometry. I have so much more traction while launching and accelerating and the car no longer squats 3 inches burying the driveshaft into the tunnel when the boost comes in. While I understand their write up applies to our cars, MM is more concerned with the road racers who needs ultra predictable suspension while cornering and braking. Your average daily driver street/strip car doesnt need to worry about the things they bring up in that article. In my opinion MM makes good roadrace stuff but for someone concerned with straight line, and not trying to get every ounce of handling out of their car doesnt need to even concern themselves with a lot of the things they bring up.. A lot of their concerns and suspension products are questionable/overkill for the average joe.

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #27 of 40 Old 04-26-2019, 10:57 AM
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That does seem like an excessive amount of movement from your driver's side arm if it moves around that much. I have the Ford M-3705-A arms on my car that are new and get nowhere near as much deflection as you state you have even with stock rubber bushings. (i tested it this past winter when i was redoing my suspension) I set my toe to 1/16" in and really don't have much wear issue in several seasons of driving the car (maybe 1K miles). How many miles do you have on the tires to see that much wear?

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post #28 of 40 Old 04-26-2019, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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somewhere between 3 and 5k miles, probably closer to 3. I got the car aligned the same day i got front tires. I drove it 1 summer, maybe 2 and then its been parked waiting on a new engine. It has been down for 2 years waiting on a new engine. I am pretty sure it was only 1 summer though. I am 99% sure the bushings are shot in the arms like Indy said. I should know more in a couple weeks when I tear it apart.

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #29 of 40 Old 04-26-2019, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
DRAG CAR?
Also toe can be easily checked with a tape and a couple of straight edges
Im going to check the toe this weekend once I pull it off blocks. I want to get an idea where it is before I change the springs.

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #30 of 40 Old 05-18-2019, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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So I am back at it again looking at the suspension after getting some other stuff resolved and threw it on the dyno. I pulled the front arms and the bushings look pretty bad. I can move them around with just the bolt in the center. A friend gave me arms from a 99+ they may even be 03 cobra arms but I am not 100% sure. I want to use these since they give a little more wheel to arm clearance The bushings in the arms he gave me are shot too so I am going to replace them with urethane. I already replaced the ball joints in them. I know for sure the rear bushing in each arm is hydro. I was able to easily pry out the center section (as fluid spilled out) on the rear bushings but I believe the front bushings are similar to the non-hydro bushings. For the front bushings do I just burn out the rubber or should that one also pry out easily leaving a sleeve?

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #31 of 40 Old 05-18-2019, 08:15 PM
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dont waste your time, you can buy oe style from late model resto

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post #32 of 40 Old 05-18-2019, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Dont waste my time with what? Urethane bushings?

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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post #33 of 40 Old 05-18-2019, 11:10 PM
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yes, bushings and ball joints

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post #34 of 40 Old 05-18-2019, 11:52 PM
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If you have to do bushings, get the complete arms. If you have to do ball joints and bushings, get the whole arms.

Don't use urethane on stock front suspension setup. Coilover=ok but not with the stock spring/strut setup. EVERY crack, pebble, nut, spark plug, brake pad remnant, rubber goober, and expansion joint in the road will jar your fillings out!

LMR's arms are a little more expensive than elsewhere online. They come from the same place. They're all backordered at the moment; unless you luck out & find a vendor who's got them in stock which might be possible. I ordered mine in April, ESD sometime in July. Good thing I ain't in no hurry.

I've done ball joints on the other car, and did bushings. Ball joints are no problem but the bushings are kind of a pain. Where they are held into the control arms, it's basically sheet metal and you can't just press them out easily without bending the control arm itself. I find it easier to remove the sleeve from the rubbers via drill bit (run a 1/4" drill bit through the rubber and let it works it's way around in circles until the rubber's mostly gone). Then cut a slot with a hacksaw blade in the bushing outer sleeve, then remove it by hand. Takes me about 3-4 hours to do both arms this way (including removal and then reinstallation) Or R&R complete arms in less time and less headache.

On my '93 coupe, the control arms are flat worn out. Ball joints are "ok" but they need to be replaced. Bushings? LOL. The toe changes quite a bit with just bushing flex. I do my own alignments at home (Thanks to MFE's article...search it on this site) and I find that on worn bushings, you can roll the car backward after adjusting the toe, then re-check it and it'll be way off, or vise versa (roll it forward after checking toe). There's more to it than that, but they are just shot and in dire need of replacement!

Reminds me...all this talk of bushings...I gotta do the rears too. Probably just replace the whole UCA and RLCA's complete with factory replacements.
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post #35 of 40 Old 05-19-2019, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I cant wait until July. I need to fix the car now for a road trip. Ill just have to order stock style bushings and replace them. The balljoints have already been replaced and weren't very difficult. I dont need to order special bushings since I have hydro bushings do I? I also could order stock arms from somewhere like rock auto.

Turbo Teal 95 GT 5 speed, Creb Engineering 331 10.2:1, TFS 190 56cc 11R heads, Victor 5.0 intake, F-cam, Siemens 80s, HP hotside, custom coldside, Moates QH T4M2 custom tune by me, 91 octane 560HP 602TQ
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